FOTJ Luke Skywalker vs DE Darth Sidious

Translation: "I have no f*cking idea, Borbarad. Probably I'm afraid to get verbally abused for being a nobody who can't come up with a coherent argument, even if it would bite my ass off". Yup. That sounds right.

The scripts are G-Canon much like everything seen in the movies that is included in the novelizations is G-Canon. And it remains G-canon until a ret-con happens. Point being: You listed ret-cons and attempted to attack the status of the scripts from there. Does that make sense? Hell no. You lose.

Oh. And by what means would the actually have done this, pal? Maybe by using force techniques that Sidious believed to exist but he didn't know about? Maybe the same technique that Nadd used to heal Kun? That would make sense, wouldn't it? That aside they could have equipped him with a technique to generate himself a new body, which appeared to have existed in the knowledge trove of Naga Sadow. If Sidious was aware of that (and mastered it!!!), why would he need a clone body at all? Hell. Exar Kun, as mentioned in the JA-sourcebook was about to turn his spirit form back into a regular being by draining force power from Luke's students. Why wouldn't Sidious in his spirit form able to do the same, provided he must have mastered that technique too?

The Holocron database was created in the year 2000. Before that, there wasn't any real database for SW canon, leading to the possibility that all works released prior to that year (with exception of the movies) may actually contain S-Canon elements or be judged as S-Canon. The only - apparent - way to check canon status is if elements from a certain source re-appear in C-Canon (or G-Canon) material. For this one would need to check the editor history of certain elements present in certain sources, which you apparently wouldn't give a crap about doing, provided that you take anything literal. Which would still completely ignore the fact that a statement given at point in time "X" does not include information relased at a later point in time "Y". And also the entire intention behind the Sourcebooks. But who cares about that? It doesn't matter at all, because whether the quote is canon or not: it still can't be used to prove anything because of it's vague nature. Again: I win, you lose.

What you are providing for me is your own interpretation of how S-canon works, rather than explicit cited statements from Leland Chee saying anything prior to the creation of the Holocron Database is deemed S-canon. This is what you are interpreting:
"The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.

I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon."
This last statement renders the classification of S-canon entirely subjective to Leland Chee and LFL--it does not expound any further on the matter aside from the fact that some select older materials may be considered S-canon, or anything else that LFL believes doesn't quite fit as well as they'd like.

Leland Chee also says this:
"'...continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else.' By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case."

at least one instakill ability (green sparks)

And why are you ruling out Force storm as a viable 1v1 power? He intended to use it against Luke and Leia in Dark Empire, and has enough control over it to choose what he wants annihilated, and what he wants to emerge unscathed. How do we know this? The surface of Coruscant was ripped to shreds--along with everything else in the Force storm's path--aside from Luke and R2-D2.

Oh, and your comments about Naga Sadow are funny. Palpatine opined that Naga Sadow was in fact too generous with his knowledge, insinuating that the ancient Sith left nearly all of his techniques behind for Palpatine's erudition.

So far I agree with gideon luke did have help, the amount is a moot point it doesnt matter, it was an intervention thereby making a one on one duel a three on one, there for any verdict from that battle is thrown out and considered irrelevent

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
You style yourself a competent and superior debater, yet you're making use of ad hominem? Is that not hypocrisy?

Please, kid. Leave the latin out of business, if you don't know what it means. An "ad hominem" argument means that you assault an debaters stance by assaulting the debater. Did I really do that? Did I say something in the line of "Well. Elok Quintly is obviously a dumbass so anything he might say does automatically suck"? That would be an "ad hominem". I'm simply mocking you for entertainment purpose.

Cut content is not G-canon. Anything in the scripts that do not appear in the movies are rendered N-canon--thus only the aspects of the screenplays that translate to the movies are considered G-canon. I also never listed any retcons. Retroactive continuity would be what Abel G. Pena did with Triclops in Aliens of the Empire.

Excuse me.
The LFL canon policy clearly says that Lucas words, no matter what, are G-canon. Lucas writes the scripts themselves. So they are G-canon as it is. Is cut content automatically N-canon?
I'd love to see a reasonable argument for that assumption. When something is removed from the movie, due to the entire thing being to damn long (listen to Lucas on the RotS DVD extras) we should ignore it, while stuff happening in the novel - but not in the movie - must still be C-canon.

Which doesn't matter in our special case of Yoda disarming Sidious. Because: "Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it". Yoda disarming Sidious also happens in the RotS comic, which happens to be a canon source. So it's valid.

First of all, the DESB uses the descriptor "nearly". It never states that he mastered every single power ever, just that he mastered nearly every single power ever. Second, the ancient Sith were incapable of healing Palpatine. There is no evidence in Empire's End to prove that the Sith spirits knew anything Palpatine didn't know, the latter was merely desperate for a way to avoid his impending doom.

Wow. Now you're nitpicking about the "nearly" while still ignoring the "it is believed". Hypocrisy much? You are still trying to defend already defeated points. That's called acting like a broken record in this realms here.

So quick to assume you've won. Again, not a very professional debating technique.

I don't assume. I merely state facts. And provided that you've failed to counter a single of my arguments, but instead decided to litter the place with pretty much pointless rants, the fact remains the same. *shrugs*

This last statement renders the classification of S-canon entirely subjective to Leland Chee and LFL--it does not expound any further on the matter aside from the fact that some select older materials may be considered S-canon, or anything else that LFL believes doesn't quite fit as well as they'd like.

I make this as simple as it can be: If there isn't another source that claims Sidious mastered "nearly all" known techniques or even an amount of techniques coming close to that, we can ignore that statement. Which we could do anyway, provided the "it is believed" qualifier, which you still keep ignoring.

Sidious also has instant kill chain lightning--as seen in Star Wars: Empire 4: Betrayal, Part 4--and normal lightning as evidenced by Empire's End.

Has he used it against a guy with Luke's force defense? Much more against a target which he could neither see nor sense?

And why are you ruling out Force storm as a viable 1v1 power? He intended to use it against Luke and Leia in Dark Empire, and has enough control over it to choose what he wants annihilated, and what he wants to emerge unscathed. How do we know this? The surface of Coruscant was ripped to shreds--along with everything else in the Force storm's path--aside from Luke and R2-D2.

I must have missed the instance where Sidious summoned one in the middle of a battle. Or are you assuming that Luke has a Martini while waiting for Sidious to finish his conjuration, after which Luke will use his dovin-basal-defeating-telekinesis to shove that thing straight back into Sidious. Which again ignores the idea that hitting an invisible and unsenseable enemy with a force attack can be quite...hard...

Oh, and your comments about Naga Sadow are funny. Palpatine opined that Naga Sadow was in fact too generous with his knowledge, insinuating that the ancient Sith left nearly all of his techniques behind for Palpatine's erudition.

So Sidious was simply too dumb to utilize it and instead went on with a line of clones that were extremely vunerable to the Dark Side energies he controlled and thusly aged in a very fast pace? After that, instead of creating himself a new body, he rather spents his days with pursuing another part to immortality which results in him getting shot and his spirit trapped - when he could have simply walked into the next Sith Alchemy lab to get himself a new body ? Or, I don't know - just die to possess one of his minions for a brief period of time in order to archive that task? Or do it Kun-style and create himself a new physical shape by force draining others (e.g. his minions / the entire population of Byss)?

Really. That makes no sense. If Sidious was in posession of that knowledge, he would have used it. And please: How can Sidious cast a judgement on how generous Sadow was with his knowledge, when he can't know how much knowledge a living Sadow had access to? If I hand you a book with extremely valueable teachings, you may think I'm generous. If it's just one of 1000 similar books, that picture might change...

Originally posted by Borbarad
I (Nai the loser)'m simply mocking you for entertainment purpose.
(wtf??????)

Do you have morals?

I don't assume. I merely state facts. And provided that you've failed to counter a single of my arguments, but instead decided to litter the place with pretty much pointless rants, the fact remains the same. *shrugs*

And since you failed to respond to my previous rebuttal concerning the true events of Empire's End, I'm going to be like you and assume I won that little argument.

Wow. Now you're nitpicking about the "nearly" while still ignoring the "it is believed". Hypocrisy much? You are still trying to defend already defeated points. That's called acting like a broken record in this realms here.

Really. That makes no sense. If Sidious was in posession of that knowledge, he would have used it. And please: How can Sidious cast a judgement on how generous Sadow was with his knowledge, when he can't know how much knowledge a living Sadow had access to? If I hand you a book with extremely valueable teachings, you may think I'm generous. If it's just one of 1000 similar books, that picture might change...

Apologies for the delay, but the internet at my father's house is unreliable.

Unless I'm mistaken, there is no explicit rule here that dictates that only a character's high end feats apply, not their low end ones. In fact, such a rule would fly in the face of the principle of canon. In order to engage in these debates, we are compelled to take canon feats, accolades, and events from canon sources -- we aren't authorized or allowed to simply pull them from our asses. That indicates quite clearly and quite strongly that canon is what matters.

Though some of us don't like it, Lumiya's defeat of Luke is just as canon and just as valid as Luke's defeat of her. I'm not going to pick and choose, nor will I discuss this with those who do. Luke demonstrates powers and skills that would enable him to defeat the Emperor, true, but Palpatine also demonstrates powers and skills far beyond the likes of certain foes who were able to challenge and defeat Luke.

I'm not going to get into the whole PIS/CIS melee again. As far as I'm concerned, it's pointless. You say Luke's defeats are the result of plot induced stupidity and one can easily turn the same argument against his sometimes equally-ridiculous victories. I'm not getting in the middle of it and instead prefer to look at a more encompassing view of the character.

There's a reason I really didn't step foot into this discussion and only responded to TJ's dubious claims and points.

But I stand by my opinion.

Nothing wrong with that. I actually prefer that, I also stand by mine, and as I've said, there is clearly no winner in a format that leaves in so much room for opinion. I've no intention of going point for point over this again. You have had the information in the past, and it didn't convince you then, why would it now?

I don't take issue with the entirety of your conclusion; as I said, Luke certainly demonstrates enough power and skill to kill the Emperor.

Where we differ is how you arrive to that conclusion: you're a lot less willing or able (or both?) to provide a wide range of accolades and feats, as demonstrated in this thread, and you seem eager to chuck entire sections of the story out the window and label it "PIS."

The other difference is, of course, that I believe that Palpatine has shown sufficient power and skill to kill Luke as well.

what? I don't disagree with any of what you just posted. I agree with that. I just think in a fight, Luke is more likely to win. As I said, in combat, you never really can tell. My money, in a betting situation though, would be on luke.

Please, kid. Leave the latin out of business, if you don't know what it means. An "ad hominem" argument means that you assault an debaters stance by assaulting the debater. Did I really do that? Did I say something in the line of "Well. Elok Quintly is obviously a dumbass so anything he might say does automatically suck"? That would be an "ad hominem". I'm simply mocking you for entertainment purpose.

Uh Nai, not to rain on your parade, but "mocking for entertainment purposes" is still considered an ad hominem. Nobody cares why you're doing it, it doesn't diminish the fallacy. Just pointing that out before you continue your sarcastic rant. Carry on🙂

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Do you have morals?

Do you have brain-cells?

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Facts? You're still making arguments that are grounded in your subjective interpretation of LFL canon policy, rather than using direct statements made by Leland Chee to support your argument that the material I'm referencing is S-canon. You're making the assumption that because we have no way of knowing what is S-canon and what isn't, we can somehow extrapolate the canon status of specific works after a certain amount of additional research. This is naught but conjecture. Therefore given the guidelines we do have, the DESB and all the information contained within--save for RPG statistics--is C-canon unless otherwise specified by LFL. Your assumption that unreferenced information in the DESB is S-canon by virtue of age is nothing but an assumption.

Firstly: I'd like you to read what I type down, if you want to get into an argument with me. That helps a lot. I said that the DESB (and everything released pre-2000) can contain S-canon information, because it was released during a time where LFL didn't have an actual "canon library" they could have checked to avoid continuity mistakes. And to exclude this possibility, one would technically need to validate any information present using another source released post 2000. Do you want to question this statement? Then please, do it, but don't attempt to strawman me.

Secondly: I'd like to point out (for the umpteenth time), that this entire side-argument is pretty much pointless, provided that we started of with you attempting to pass speculation down as fact. Remember? Gee.

And since you failed to respond to my previous rebuttal concerning the true events of Empire's End, I'm going to be like you and assume I won that little argument.

Oh, really? You want more asskicking? Here it comes: Sidious visits Korriban, because he wants to get his body healed. Obviously he either knew or assumed that the Sith Lord there could do something that he was inable of doing himself. When the Sith spirit tells him that this isn't possible, because the body has "yielded to necrosis", Sidious still believes that they could heal him if they wanted, screaming "You deny me this?" at them. So he wasn't in search of knowledge / power to save his body? 🙄

Yet even if the Sith really couldn't heal him (which is debateable), they were definetely ahead of him in the Jedi Children search business. Yes. It was done with an artifact - a Sith artifact, constructed by Sith using Sith magic / alchemy or, in short, the force. So, again, he requested their help in form of knowledge / power that he didn't have access to. Which was the entire point.

I never said the quote was incontrovertible, so I'm not being a hypocrite.

No?

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
You mean all those Force abilities Sidious can purportedly utilize as well, given the canonical statement in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that posits Sidious can use nearly every power, while simultaneously granting him the latitude to pull any newly-concocted application of the Force that he desires out of his anal cavity?

What's that? Did you type that down? Is that you omitting the "It is believed" in an attempt to pass down the quote as fact, as a basis to state that Sidious can use everything Luke could use - including technique that Luke invented himself. Gosh. No. That clearly can't be the case, since you aren't a moron who would do such things, right? 🙄

I merely never conceded that the quote was entirely invalid.

So you're not just a moron but a complete moron. Because a mysterious somebody does believe something, there has to be some validity in that statement? So if I believe that I'm a super-villain who can obliterate star-systems with a mere thought, I'm not a candidate for a nice vacation in a padded cell. No. There must be some truth contained within that statement... 🙄

Sorry. The quote is invalid because we don't have a source for that belief. It's - de facto - even less valid than a belief that you, me or "Stone Cold" Steve Austin utters in relation to the power of an SW character, because one could analyze the SW knowledge of an individual uttering such a belief and thereby make an educated guess if it's valid, somewhat accurate or complete bullshit. Here, we can't do that, rendering that statement completely useless.

Take this one up with Palpatine. And while you're at it, mind providing the source that says Naga Sadow was capable of generating a new physical form for himself?

I don't have to "take this one up with Palpatine". You have to take it up with logical reasoning and the idea that source in the SW universe can have different levels of validity. This could be an enticing experience in contrast to take everything literal and at face value that helps your case.

That aside: Freedon Nadd states that Sadow was in possession of the knowledge to create a new body for a force spirit. He demanded from Kun to use said knowledge in order to equip him with a new body, right before Kun annihilated him. Likewise the Jedi Academy Sourcebook claims that Kun would have been able to create himself a new body, once he would have gathered enough energy. And since Kun learned pretty much anything from the stuff Sadow left behind, it's reasonable to assume that the Ancient Sith Lord did possess said knowledge.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Uh Nai, not to rain on your parade, but "mocking for entertainment purposes" is still considered an ad hominem. Nobody cares why you're doing it, it doesn't diminish the fallacy. Just pointing that out before you continue your sarcastic rant. Carry on🙂

Uh, DS. Not to point out your lack of knowledge in the field once again, but "ad hominem" describes the action of linking the validity of an argument to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument, thereby attempting to attack the arguments validity. Again: Did I do that? No. I mocked him, yes. But not with the intention to assault one of his arguments.

I could have done it by linking his self-set status of "Sidious worshipper" to any pro-Sidious argument he handed in. But that's, frankly, no fun for me.

Which is, by the way, the reason why I just typed down the explanation above, instead of simply stating that you - as somebody hating philosophy as a subject - would clearly be the last person capable of giving a lecture on technical terms from that field of study. That would have been an example of "ad hominem".

@Nai:

So an ad hominem > what you're doing, because an ad hominem is actually talking about the validy of an argument through a semi-valid way, whereas you're throwing out a random insult just for the fun of it, just like how many Sith Lords in Star Wars murder people just for the fun of it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Unless I'm mistaken, there is no explicit rule here that dictates that only a character's high end feats apply, not their low end ones. In fact, such a rule would fly in the face of the principle of canon. In order to engage in these debates, we are compelled to take canon feats, accolades, and events from canon sources -- we aren't authorized or allowed to simply pull them from our asses. That indicates quite clearly and quite strongly that canon is what matters.

This doesn't make sense, Gideon.

Of course we have to take feats and accolades from canon sources. The point is that you'll never be able to arrive at any conclusion how powerful a character is, when you don't stick to his highest showings but instead take the lowest possible showings into consideration, even such things clearly attributed to PIS.

Otherwise, one could arrive at the conclusion that everybody strong enough to lift Sidious sorry ass up can defeat the Emperor if some reactor shaft is near, provided his force lightning couldn't even stop Vader from doing so, who was encased in a suit making him extremely vunerable to that kind of attack. Does that make sense?

Though some of us don't like it, Lumiya's defeat of Luke is just as canon and just as valid as Luke's defeat of her. I'm not going to pick and choose, nor will I discuss this with those who do. Luke demonstrates powers and skills that would enable him to defeat the Emperor, true, but Palpatine also demonstrates powers and skills far beyond the likes of certain foes who were able to challenge and defeat Luke.

Of course her defeat of him is valid. The point is: Could she do that every day under any giving circumstances, with a Luke willing to use anything he could use against her? That's what a VS-debate is all about and not just taking incidences shown, pick what you like (low showings, high showings) and base you judgement on that. If that were the case, one could, in a fight between Luminara and Luke, simply say "He / She will win, because he has done that before" without taking any circumstances into consideration. That would fly in the face of the principles of canon.

I'm not going to get into the whole PIS/CIS melee again. As far as I'm concerned, it's pointless. You say Luke's defeats are the result of plot induced stupidity and one can easily turn the same argument against his sometimes equally-ridiculous victories. I'm not getting in the middle of it and instead prefer to look at a more encompassing view of the character.

That might be your own perspective of what you do, Gideon. But the matter of fact is, that by eleminating any out of universe ideas (such as intent of the author, PIS, CIS whatever) from the equation, you'll never be able to come up with an accurate guess on how a character works or how powerful he is. In fact that would torpede the purpose of VS fights. As example: Luke would, probably, never use an instakill on a regular opponent. Does that mean we should ignore the possibility that he could do that?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Nai:

So an ad hominem > what you're doing, because an ad hominem is actually talking about the validy of an argument through a semi-valid way, whereas you're throwing out a random insult just for the fun of it, just like how many Sith Lords in Star Wars murder people just for the fun of it.

Are you really that dense?

Everytime I have to read one of your replies, some of my braincells commit suicide, because not being able to stand such utter stupidity. So you posting here is equivalent to murder over time, which means that - provided you have any morals - you have to stop posting here right now. 🙄

you did totally ignore everything he said and just insult him just now though mmm

Originally posted by Borbarad
Are you really that dense?

Everytime I have to read one of your replies, some of my braincells commit suicide, because not being able to stand such utter stupidity. So you posting here is equivalent to murder over time, which means that - provided you have any morals - you have to stop posting here [b]right now. 🙄 [/B]

Funny, you didn't actually respond to what I was saying.

Oh, and you haven't responded to our PM debate. Probably because you can't justify saying that "Sidious would get smoked in seconds by any ancient Sith"

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Funny, you didn't actually respond to what I was saying.

That's maybe because you were actually stupid enough to compare mocking people to killing people, which led me to assume that you're either 10 years old or make Forrest Gump look like a rocket scientist - with both of said ideas leading to the consideration that every second talking to you is a waste of time. Did I make myself clear?

Oh, and you haven't responded to our PM debate. Probably because you can't justify saying that "Sidious would get smoked in seconds by any ancient Sith"

Actually, you can find the real reason for me not further responding to you in the paragraph I just typed above. Provided that I'm talking to you, I will make it clear just once again: I consider every second of talking to you a pointless waste of time and I will not engage in such activities, if I have anything better to do. Like, just as example, attempting to teach my goldfish some algebra or how to fly, which - let me put an emphasis on this point once more - would still make more sense than participating in any kind of discussion with yourself.

I hope you got it now because, quite frankly, I'm not willing to paint you a nicely colored picture in order to make you understand.

What's that? Did you type that down? Is that you omitting the "It is believed" in an attempt to pass down the quote as fact, as a basis to state that Sidious can use everything Luke could use - including technique that Luke invented himself. Gosh. No. That clearly can't be the case, since you aren't a moron who would do such things, right? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Firstly: I'd like you to read what I type down, if you want to get into an argument with me. That helps a lot. I said that the DESB (and everything released pre-2000) can contain S-canon information, because it was released during a time where LFL didn't have an actual "canon library" they could have checked to avoid continuity mistakes. And to exclude this possibility, one would technically need to validate any information present using another source released post 2000. Do you want to question this statement? Then please, do it, but don't attempt to strawman me.

So you're not just a moron but a complete moron. Because a mysterious somebody does believe something, there has to be some validity in that statement?

I don't have to "take this one up with Palpatine". You have to take it up with logical reasoning and the idea that source in the SW universe can have different levels of validity. This could be an enticing experience in contrast to take everything literal and at face value that helps your case.

That aside: Freedon Nadd states that Sadow was in possession of the knowledge to create a new body for a force spirit. He demanded from Kun to use said knowledge in order to equip him with a new body, right before Kun annihilated him. Likewise the Jedi Academy Sourcebook claims that Kun would have been able to create himself a new body, once he would have gathered enough energy. And since Kun learned pretty much anything from the stuff Sadow left behind, it's reasonable to assume that the Ancient Sith Lord did possess said knowledge.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Apparently you are unaware of what "purportedly" means. Why don't you look it up in the dictionary before continuing your needlessly condescending tirade.

Oh sorry. In that light it just didn't make sense that you brought up the quote at all...

Or we can just assume it's C-canon unless stated otherwise, like everyone else but you does. One doesn't technically need to do anything in this case. I agree that your method is logically sound; however, we still cannot assume that merely because something has not yet been referenced in another work, that it is S-canon. I'm also sure the Holocron continuity database is rather lacking, given that official Star Wars authors such as Pablo Hidalgo reference Wookieepedia, and even cite the help of Wookieepedians in books such as Star Wars: The Essential Atlas.

As a matter of fact, most things appearing in one source have been mentioned by another, so there wouldn't be much of a problem with that line of thought. And it's rather hard to believe that a database lacks...
The statistics for it (in 2006) were:

* Sources: 1,180
* Images: 9,503
* Characters: 8,742
* Planets: 3,419
* Aliens: 756
* Creatures: 1,255
* Vehicles: 2,716
* Weapons: 1,130
* Groups: 1,641

That are more than 20000 articles where Wookipedia, I give you that, has four times as much, which includes many one liners just referencing another article.

That mysterious somebody, being the narrator of the text, would be far more informed than you or I, and thus we cannot discard his/her statement entirely. Since we're obviously never going to agree on this, I'll opt to discontinue further discussion on said topic.

How is this belief coming from the narrator?
The narrator does himself point to another mysterious source for that belief in the fashion of "people believed that...". If that line of thought would have come from the narrator or any other source that deserves to be taken into consideration, said source would have been named, regardless if it was the narrator, historians, people who studied the ways of the force or merely some SW fans.

Which doesn't happen. That, and the fact that this entire Sourcebook is written to have people play some role in the SW universe, the only valid idea that I see is that the line was put in to allow Game Masters to have Sidious - as you did put it - "pull any newly-concocted application of the Force that he desires out of his anal cavity", as the idea of the RPG allows (for example) to fight Sidious, with could be quite complicated in a stat-based enviroment. Thusly a line like "I can defeat Sidious because I have an attack skill that totally owns his defense" can easily be countered with "He uses force-delete-character on your char and you simply vanish".

If Kun learned everything he knows from material Sadow left behind, then we can assume that Palpatine uncovered it as well, given that Palpatine had access to all of the knowledge in Sadow's holocron. This can be further proved by the fact that Palpatine appeared to have an intimate knowledge of the events surrounding Sadow, Nadd, and Kun.

Wrong.
There wasn't something like "Sadow's holocron". Sadow left some knowledge in Adas holocron which remained in Sith space (on Ashas Rae more specifically) when Sadow escaped to Yavin 4. Sadow did continue his experiments in Sith Alchemy while exiled, apparently for decades or possible even centuries, with all additional knowledge he gained there not being stored in the holocron.

That aside, I've already mentioned before: One can't be sure that Sadow did even put all he knew into that holocron. The various comments made to Revan when he did visit the Sith Academy in KotoR do actually suggest that Sith kept their most valueable knowledge for themselves.

And I don't see how some historic knowledge is proof for Sidious having access to Sadow's force knowledge. I doubt Voran Na'al was a force god...

Oh, really? You want more asskicking? Here it comes: Sidious visits Korriban, because he wants to get his body healed. Obviously he either knew or assumed that the Sith Lord there could do something that he was inable of doing himself. When the Sith spirit tells him that this isn't possible, because the body has "yielded to necrosis", Sidious still believes that they could heal him if they wanted, screaming "You deny me this?" at them. So he wasn't in search of knowledge / power to save his body?

Yet even if the Sith really couldn't heal him (which is debateable), they were definetely ahead of him in the Jedi Children search business. Yes. It was done with an artifact - a Sith artifact, constructed by Sith using Sith magic / alchemy or, in short, the force. So, again, he requested their help in form of knowledge / power that he didn't have access to. Which was the entire point.