LOK3 Defiance vs. Twilight Princess

Originally posted by quanchi112
He gets pushed back until you put on the boots. It's a requirement and all the boot feats require the boots. Without them he can't stop a goron so how does this end the argument?

No, Link was being pushed back until Midna finally prevailed.

No, Link got pushed back until he fell off the cliff. You can see he slowed the goron before he hit the cliff, so he would have stopped it had the cliff not been there. He wouldn't have needed the Iron Boots if the was enough space to slide.

No, you don't understand. Midna prevailed because Link stopped. Link was being pushed back until he stopped himself, and only after he stopped was Midna able to throw Ganon. Even then Midna was exerting a force on Ganon, she was also exerting a force on Link in the opposite direction. Link didn't move, so Ganon did.

Originally posted by The Scenario
No, Link got pushed back until he fell off the cliff. You can see he slowed the goron before he hit the cliff, so he would have stopped it had the cliff not been there. He wouldn't have needed the Iron Boots if the was enough space to slide.

No, you don't understand. Midna prevailed because Link stopped. Link was being pushed back until he stopped himself, and only after he stopped was Midna able to throw Ganon. Even then Midna was exerting a force on Ganon, she was also exerting a force on Link in the opposite direction. Link didn't move, so Ganon did.

Try taking off the boots and see if you can throw any old Goron not near a cliff and tell me what happens.

I don't see that at all. I see Midna successfully overpowering ganon and since his momentum stopped so did Link's.

Theres nothing over the last 6/7+ pages worth replying to and most of it has been replied to. Its a joke is what it is, Link without the Iron boots would have been crushed into the dirt, the extra pounds given by iron on his feet is enough to stop the gorons weight+motion, after that all hes lifting is something less than his own weight which is not that impressive. By lifting Dongoroo hes proving about 1 ton, if that of strength. Theres no evidence Gorons are solid rock and Links (or the mayors) weight+iron can stop this weight anyway thus disproving that theory altgoether.

Other than that, just typical overwanking of Ganons strength based on a glancing blow on OoT link which according to the thread starter is irrelevant here. Not that it would be useful in reality.

At least Quanchis reply is worth assessing...

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who am I leaving out in this game? I am going purely off of memory so I am sure I left someone out.

I ignored it because Kain hasn't used those types of powers since then. It's a completely different game and time for Kain and he's changed big time since then so I go by what happened blood omen 2 an don since it's stayed mainly consistent to what he is capable of since then.

No, it doesn't. it can blast but has has hit plenty of foes before without blasting them. No, those swords aren't just pieces of metal and we aren't getting into whose sword can destroy the other ones as that's just useless speculation. Both can block the other person's sword and it comes down to who inflicts more damage and hits the other one.

How can you say Link hasn't when we've seen him destroy entire forces just like Kain throughout the course of the game. Quit focusing on gameplay it's about as ridiculous as onebomb arrow being thought to be able to take out Kain.

He isn't nigh unstoppable and has never been portrayed as such. he's a badass no question about it but so's raziel, Link, and ganondorf. I give Kain the advantage here but it's very close.

The mages used the mirror to banish him which was impressive considering how easily he killed one of the mages after having a sword impaled inside of him.

This is part 5 alone so he isn't turning into any wolf let's leave out his list of abilities from part 1 and focus on what's in character for him from this game.

Well it depends on what period your using, dont forget that Kain and Raziel travel through time and are different periods from eachother during the whole game. I think at one point their both 500 years before the Pillars collapse and the old council such as mortanius, dejoule, Anacranothe and the other Blood omen 1 council are all existant. If thats so then they can create a region sized area that will transform and destroy the majority of the opponents army.

Thats not to say Kain "would not" use them if he required to. Blood omen 2 is a completly different game and time to Soul reaver, thousands of years different actually....that does not mean to say we can ignore the characters before then.

It can blast, shoot lightning, warp dimention etc since Defiance. Other than the "evils bane" gag that seems overhyped by the opposition what does the Mastersword have beyond being a piece of metal? useless speculation? the Soul reaver is an ancient blade unaffected by time and used by a 60-100 tonner (Kain) against both rock and beast, combined with the energy it can release it would shatter Ganons featless swords and probably the MS too.

Weve not seen link do that, hes faced possibly a handfull of monsters per room. Kains been the general at the front of several battles, possibly more during the thousands of years of being the Vampire God in soul reaver. Gameplay? quote where I even mentioned gameplay? your the one baseing Kains actions on specific gameplay events remember?

Not portrayed as such? hes an ancient who is seen as a God by other superhuman entities and has gained sorcerous power through his thousands of years of life, the guy sits at the top of a hierarchy whos small fledglings and children see the human race as a "minor amusement" and who can heal in seconds from Raziel who is a 50-100 tonner at least. The guy is portrayed as unstoppable in most cases without having to connect the dots I just did for you.

He did not try to do anything after smashing the first mage, he seemed to just stand and allow them to banish him as it took an incredibly long time. Kain would never have allowed it.

Werewolf, Defiance Kain is the superior version of previous incarnations. Hes not lost anything previously and nothing canon in the storyline indicates this. In defiance he only gains powers. You realise Ganon is the same character in TP as he is in the other LoZ games? I hope your ignoring all of his other incarnations as well? and links?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, meaning he will always be pushed back without the boots and that only with the boots can he pull off the feat.

The boots only stop him from being pushed back. Link picked up and tossed gorons on his own, after he stopped them.

Try taking off the boots and see if you can throw any old Goron not near a cliff and tell me what happens.

IIRC, all of them are on cliffs like that.

I don't see that at all. I see Midna successfully overpowering ganon and since his momentum stopped so did Link's.

I don't understand how you can't see this.

YouTube video

Let's take a closer look:

At 1:37, Link and Midna hit Ganon's charge, and Link is pushed back.
At 1:38, look at Link's legs, and how he kicks up dust and manages to stop Ganon. This indicates that all the force is going through Midna into Link, and Link manages to stop after sliding a bit. Midna hasn't done anything yet, except just catch the force and funnel it to Link.
At 1:40 You can see Ganon begin pushing forward. You can see that it is Link reacting here, not Midna. Ganon pushes, and Link moves slightly, but doesn't get pushed.
At 1:42, Midna starts lifting Ganon, but Link is still reacting and exerting his own forces. Midna throws Ganon, exerting another force on Link, who she's sitting on.

There. Link stopped Gannon, and Midna threw him.

Theres nothing over the last 6/7+ pages worth replying to and most of it has been replied to. Its a joke is what it is, Link without the Iron boots would have been crushed into the dirt, the extra pounds given by iron on his feet is enough to stop the gorons weight+motion, after that all hes lifting is something less than his own weight which is not that impressive. By lifting Dongoroo hes proving about 1 ton, if that of strength. Theres no evidence Gorons are solid rock and Links (or the mayors) weight+iron can stop this weight anyway thus disproving that theory altgoether.

Stop ignoring evidence.

YouTube video

1:24, not crushed. He only needed the boots to keep from sliding. And I see you still do not realize the Iron Boots are more than just slabs of metal. Their purpose is to make Link extremely heavy. Do you remember when we tested their weight, and it came to at least five times Link's weight before running out of counterweights? There is a statement that says the boots make Link heavier than the Deku Tree.

Further, Mayor Bo only fought in a sumo wrestling match. He did not fight Dangoro and did not stop a charging Goron. This is what Bo did:

YouTube video

At 5:12

While this, is what Link did:

YouTube video

At 0:56 onwards.

Other than that, just typical overwanking of Ganons strength based on a glancing blow on OoT link which according to the thread starter is irrelevant here. Not that it would be useful in reality.

There is also the swordlock, which Ganondorf is capable of winning. Their strength is comparable.

Originally posted by BloodRain
:/ The force Kratos can produce >> the force a rolling Goron can. He'd be able to stop it in its tracks.

Anyway: Onto something relevant.

Quanchi has failed to provide any feats proving Kain is above Link in any way, Link wins that exchange.

Zelda wins because Ganon, Link, and Zelda can assemble the triforce between the three of them and wish to wipe out LoK as an instant win.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Wrong. Kratos is not > The laws of physics, he is not a passive reality warper, and therefore, due to being lighter, if a Goron rolls into him, Kratos will move, no matter how strong he is. 🙂

that type of logic can hardly be used in tons of fiction because its broken all of the time. kratos gets into slug fests with people who have multi-ton strength but when he gets hit his body doesnt go flying back, even though he only weighs 280-300 pounds max...

it also happens in comic book a lot.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
that type of logic can hardly be used in tons of fiction because its broken all of the time. kratos gets into slug fests with people who have multi-ton strength but when he gets hit his body doesnt go flying back, even though he only weighs 280-300 pounds max...

it also happens in comic book a lot.

A character can defy physics and their own abilities when it looks cool, or is convenient for story, because let's face it: having to trek back 500 miles everytime a boss hits you in a game would suck.

Until Kratos is a reality warper, a larger mass will move him.

"coolforce" is a made up term that isnt applicable in any sort of argument

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
"coolforce" is a made up term that isnt applicable in any sort of argument

The argument is still valid. The laws of physics cannot be broken.

toonforce is also a made up term that is stupid and shouldnt be used in arguments. you'll never catch me using the term in any of my arguments.

the laws of physics can not be broken according to, who?

According to, y'know, the laws of physics. 😐 Kratos has no power to turn them off, and as such, must follow them. Like: gravity, inertia, ect. If not, he'll just float away/cease existing.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
[B]According to, y'know, the laws of physics. 😐

thats circular reasoning.

Kratos has no power to turn them off, and as such, must follow them. Like: gravity, inertia, ect. If not, he'll just float away/cease existing.

or not, considering that he has shrugged off blows that should have sent his body flying in the opposite direction, over and over and over again.

Now that I think about it, what about the fact that differing verses have differing levels of physics as it relates to reality?

That must be taken into account, and I suppose the best way to do that is to go for a middle ground, and realistic physics as Paste argues for is probably the easiest and fairest way to do it.

Superman can move a planet on his strength alone. Mr. Majestic, another superman like character, has the strength to move a planet on his own but his verse has different physics (more realistic actually), such that if he tried to move a planet on his own, the planet would collapse from the PSI being applied as he is merely human sized.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Now that I think about it, what about the fact that differing verses have differing levels of physics as it relates to reality?

well thats the only logical explanation there is. its also the reason why "the laws of physics" should hardly be taken into account when dismissing a feat in reference to fictional characters in fictional universes.

In singular verse match ups, physics can default to that of their own verse obviously.

Cross-verse match ups are more complicated. Realistic is the best way to go as a middle ground.

that doesnt work, because a lot of times a characters power set and abilities only work because of how the laws of physics work in their own universe.

it would be gimping to state that superman isnt really stronger than kratos, for example, because realistically speaking superman shouldnt be able to lift a skyscraper without it crumbling around him.

if a character has shown the ability to do something, then he can do it. logic and reality be damned. if kratos can consistently shrug off punches that should send him flying, then he can. creating some term to explain it away isnt a valid argument.

Who says Superman would have to lose that level of strength in a cross-verse match up with realistic physics? He can still have the strength to lift the weight befitting a skyscraper, it simply means he can't lift up an actual skyscraper itself without it collapsing. Unless he has some means to explain him being able to, (such as erecting some invisible force field around the structure that keeps it from collapsing).

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
thats circular reasoning.

or not, considering that he has shrugged off blows that should have sent his body flying in the opposite direction, over and over and over again.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
that doesnt work, because a lot of times a characters power set and abilities only work because of how the laws of physics work in their own universe.

it would be gimping to state that superman isnt really stronger than kratos, for example, because realistically speaking superman shouldnt be able to lift a skyscraper without it crumbling around him.

if a character has shown the ability to do something, then he can do it. logic and reality be damned. if kratos can consistently shrug off punches that should send him flying, then he can. creating some term to explain it away isnt a valid argument.

And nah, the sky scraper not crumbling is a result of superman's aura or something is it not? Tactile telekinesis or something? Kratos doesn't have that. Regardless, whether the skyscraper remains intact doesn't matter, because it doesn't nerf superman's strength at all. Maybe comic-book cities build their sky scrapers better than we do because they have super-beings? 😛

Also, he has to follow the laws of physics, because he exists. If gravity was different by one decimal point, I believe, don't quote me on this, memory is fallible, but our molecules could not sustain themselves. Until he's a reality warper, he'll be moved by a larger mass in motion. This in no way takes away from his strength, it's just how reality works.

It's not an argumetn that physics in his universe are different either, because that nerfs all of his strength feats into the ground. 😬 different physics = different weight and energy.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Now that I think about it, what about the fact that differing verses have differing levels of physics as it relates to reality?

That must be taken into account, and I suppose the best way to do that is to go for a middle ground, and realistic physics as Paste argues for is probably the easiest and fairest way to do it.

Superman can move a planet on his strength alone. Mr. Majestic, another superman like character, has the strength to move a planet on his own but his verse has different physics (more realistic actually), such that if he tried to move a planet on his own, the planet would collapse from the PSI being applied as he is merely human sized.

There's a theory that Superman surrounds an object he is pushing with his Bio-electric aura.
IMO, it makes more sense than the DC verse having a completely different set of laws of Physics. Especially when DC's mainstream verse is based off the Real World.