Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Characters are allowed to do this crap when it looks cool. See Dante from DMC, he's practicly made of this problem.
this is the exact same thing that as saying "coolforce" except you just listed the explanation for the term.
its still just an out of universe term that has no bearing on anything.
And nah, the sky scraper not crumbling is a result of superman's aura or something is it not? Tactile telekinesis or something? Kratos doesn't have that. Regardless, whether the skyscraper remains intact doesn't matter, because it doesn't nerf superman's strength at all. Maybe comic-book cities build their sky scrapers better than we do because they have super-beings? 😛
superman was stated to have TT until like ten years ago. so what was he doing for other 40 years that hes had comics? and superman aside, there are tons of characters who do the same thing without TT. the hulk lifted an island and walked miles with it over his head, iron man recently lifted an entire airship over his head without it collapsing, etc.
Also, he has to follow the laws of physics, because he exists.
according to, who?
According to, y'know, the laws of physics
thats circular reasoning
If gravity was different by one decimal point, I believe, don't quote me on this, memory is fallible, but our molecules could not sustain themselves. Until he's a reality warper, he'll be moved by a larger mass in motion. This in no way takes away from his strength, it's just how reality works.It's not an argumetn that physics in his universe are different either, because that nerfs all of his strength feats into the ground. 😬 different physics = different weight and energy. [/B]
the problem with that is that, again, youre basing this all off of how our universe works. thats not logical in itself.
Great, here's where you take this down the following road:
Nothing is valid ever. If the universe is different nothing can be judged or gauged comparitively because the rules are not the same and no feat is worth anything, because we can't say anything qwith even a little certainty. 😐
Basicly: Either; until Kratos can defy the laws of physics by way of having TT like superman, he will move if a heavier mass collides with him, and a sky scraper he lifts will crumble.
OR; his universe has different laws, and we cannot judge his feats or compare them.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Great, here's where you take this down the following road:Nothing is valid ever. If the universe is different nothing can be judged or gauged comparitively because the rules are not the same and no feat is worth anything, because we can't say anything qwith even a little certainty. 😐
thats a slippery slope fallacy, for one.
Basicly: Either; until Kratos can defy the laws of physics by way of having TT like superman, he will move if a heavier mass collides with him, and a sky scraper he lifts will crumble.OR; his universe has different laws, and we cannot judge his feats or compare them. [/B]
or,
we can not title a feat as impossible purely on the basis that it contradicts physics.
thats not exactly game breaking. for you maybe, but, ive been trying to ween you off of this "science proves all!" shtick for awhile.
Originally posted by Ms.MarvelAs much as I adore and appreciate your efforts, I remain a faithful patron of the science and physics. 😛
thats a slippery slope fallacy, for one.or,
we can not title a feat as impossible purely on the basis that it contradicts physics.
thats not exactly game breaking. for you maybe, but, ive been trying to ween you off of this "science proves all!" shtick for awhile.
I disagree with your or, and that it's a slippery slope, because that is exactly what the direxct consequence is of having different laws in a different universe: We cannot know anything about it, and it would invalidate all feats. 😬
also, if we're makign two characters fight each other in a neutral environment, the laws of physics are going to be in practice, unless one of the combatants can turn them off. Kratos cannot, and he's not even here, I forget why we're debating this. 😑
Originally posted by Burning thoughtThey have whatever characters are from the defiance game. I think Mortanius and Moebius are the only ones in the game, right? If I am remembering incorrectly tell me.
Theres nothing over the last 6/7+ pages worth replying to and most of it has been replied to. Its a joke is what it is, Link without the Iron boots would have been crushed into the dirt, the extra pounds given by iron on his feet is enough to stop the gorons weight+motion, after that all hes lifting is something less than his own weight which is not that impressive. By lifting Dongoroo hes proving about 1 ton, if that of strength. Theres no evidence Gorons are solid rock and Links (or the mayors) weight+iron can stop this weight anyway thus disproving that theory altgoether.Other than that, just typical overwanking of Ganons strength based on a glancing blow on OoT link which according to the thread starter is irrelevant here. Not that it would be useful in reality.
At least Quanchis reply is worth assessing...
Well it depends on what period your using, dont forget that Kain and Raziel travel through time and are different periods from eachother during the whole game. I think at one point their both 500 years before the Pillars collapse and the old council such as mortanius, dejoule, Anacranothe and the other Blood omen 1 council are all existant. If thats so then they can create a region sized area that will transform and destroy the majority of the opponents army.
Thats not to say Kain "would not" use them if he required to. Blood omen 2 is a completly different game and time to Soul reaver, thousands of years different actually....that does not mean to say we can ignore the characters before then.
It can blast, shoot lightning, warp dimention etc since Defiance. Other than the "evils bane" gag that seems overhyped by the opposition what does the Mastersword have beyond being a piece of metal? useless speculation? the Soul reaver is an ancient blade unaffected by time and used by a 60-100 tonner (Kain) against both rock and beast, combined with the energy it can release it would shatter Ganons featless swords and probably the MS too.
Weve not seen link do that, hes faced possibly a handfull of monsters per room. Kains been the general at the front of several battles, possibly more during the thousands of years of being the Vampire God in soul reaver. Gameplay? quote where I even mentioned gameplay? your the one baseing Kains actions on specific gameplay events remember?
Not portrayed as such? hes an ancient who is seen as a God by other superhuman entities and has gained sorcerous power through his thousands of years of life, the guy sits at the top of a hierarchy whos small fledglings and children see the human race as a "minor amusement" and who can heal in seconds from Raziel who is a 50-100 tonner at least. The guy is portrayed as unstoppable in most cases without having to connect the dots I just did for you.
He did not try to do anything after smashing the first mage, he seemed to just stand and allow them to banish him as it took an incredibly long time. Kain would never have allowed it.
Werewolf, Defiance Kain is the superior version of previous incarnations. Hes not lost anything previously and nothing canon in the storyline indicates this. In defiance he only gains powers. You realise Ganon is the same character in TP as he is in the other LoZ games? I hope your ignoring all of his other incarnations as well? and links?
I am trying to base these fights off how these characters basically fight whereas you are trying to gain an advantage and do it purely power based. I think Kain can teleport and tk here and there but basically he will be swinging his bread and butter the soulreaver.
Just stop with going on and on about how awesome the reaver is. I think it's a lot more powerful than the master sword as well but to keep this fair we can't just act like one overpowers the other. To be fair we just can't. None of the stuff you addressed can be used outside how he used the sword throughout the majority of the game, basically killing people with it.
Yes, kain's been in huge battles before with entire armies. Both are in rooms against various enemies but neither has ever soloed an army.
Kain's formidable because of his powers and mainly because with the soul raver in the game you cannot kill him but for the purposes of this thread he can die with the sword so that takes a lot away from what made him so dangerous in the lok verse.
In both games we see Kain just stand there while Raziel rips his heart out and still stands there while he tk's him in a portal. Both can and have been beaten.
I never said he lost the ability I said he only has the abilities of defiance.
Originally posted by The ScenarioThe point is you cannot stop any Goron's ball charge without the iron boots. You need the weight.
The boots only stop him from being pushed back. Link picked up and tossed gorons on his own, after he stopped them.IIRC, all of them are on cliffs like that.
I don't understand how you can't see this.
Let's take a closer look:
At 1:37, Link and Midna hit Ganon's charge, and Link is pushed back.
At 1:38, look at Link's legs, and how he kicks up dust and manages to stop Ganon. This indicates that all the force is going through Midna into Link, and Link manages to stop after sliding a bit. Midna hasn't done anything yet, except just catch the force and funnel it to Link.
At 1:40 You can see Ganon begin pushing forward. You can see that it is Link reacting here, not Midna. Ganon pushes, and Link moves slightly, but doesn't get pushed.
At 1:42, Midna starts lifting Ganon, but Link is still reacting and exerting his own forces. Midna throws Ganon, exerting another force on Link, who she's sitting on.There. Link stopped Gannon, and Midna threw him.
Stop ignoring evidence.
1:24, not crushed. He only needed the boots to keep from sliding. And I see you still do not realize the Iron Boots are more than just slabs of metal. Their purpose is to make Link extremely heavy. Do you remember when we tested their weight, and it came to at least five times Link's weight before running out of counterweights? There is a statement that says the boots make Link heavier than the Deku Tree.
Further, Mayor Bo only fought in a sumo wrestling match. He did not fight Dangoro and did not stop a charging Goron. This is what Bo did:
At 5:12
While this, is what Link did:
At 0:56 onwards.
There is also the swordlock, which Ganondorf is capable of winning. Their strength is comparable.
Think about how pressed Link is when he uses the ball and chain in the game. He doesn't appear strong at all.
Like I said Midna is overpowering him and that's when Link's wolf legs aren't moving backward and he's pressing off from the ground.
Either way it's a wolf not human form Link.
Originally posted by ScreamPasteYou really are something if you think fictional universes have to follow the laws of physics.
Anyway: Onto something relevant.Quanchi has failed to provide any feats proving Kain is above Link in any way, Link wins that exchange.
Zelda wins because Ganon, Link, and Zelda can assemble the triforce between the three of them and wish to wipe out LoK as an instant win.
The point is Kain is stronger than Link who needs iron boots to pull off the goron feats and Midna to overpower Ganon while in wolf form.
Link barely able to move while using the ball and chain shows you just how weak of a guy he is.
Who has Link manhandled without an item or another character that shows us how strong he is?
Originally posted by quanchi112
They have whatever characters are from the defiance game. I think Mortanius and Moebius are the only ones in the game, right? If I am remembering incorrectly tell me.I am trying to base these fights off how these characters basically fight whereas you are trying to gain an advantage and do it purely power based. I think Kain can teleport and tk here and there but basically he will be swinging his bread and butter the soulreaver.
Just stop with going on and on about how awesome the reaver is. I think it's a lot more powerful than the master sword as well but to keep this fair we can't just act like one overpowers the other. To be fair we just can't. None of the stuff you addressed can be used outside how he used the sword throughout the majority of the game, basically killing people with it.
Yes, kain's been in huge battles before with entire armies. Both are in rooms against various enemies but neither has ever soloed an army.
Kain's formidable because of his powers and mainly because with the soul raver in the game you cannot kill him but for the purposes of this thread he can die with the sword so that takes a lot away from what made him so dangerous in the lok verse.
In both games we see Kain just stand there while Raziel rips his heart out and still stands there while he tk's him in a portal. Both can and have been beaten.
I never said he lost the ability I said he only has the abilities of defiance.
What do you mean by this? do you mean they have the exact characters we actually see, because we dont actually see an army of Sarafan or Hylden, they simply exist in the Lokverse at the same time period, just like how most of the characters fit in the time periods of Defiance. Only characters we see on-screen in TP and Defiance are in this fight?
No, your baseing the fight on how they have decided to fight in a particular example from the games. Your pretty much comitting a huge hasty generalisation fallacy. Because Kain is purely power based, despite physical power beyond his opponents he is more of an intelligent sorceror/mage character than a brawler.
Why? thats what the reaver is, thats what the reaver does. Its far superior to any of their weapons and has a vast number of capabilities. It does overpower the MS, you seem to be ignoring powers and abilities and you act like you dont actually want either side to win because you keep saying how we cant imply one aspect is more powerful than another.
But Kain, Elder God and Raziel "can" with ease to name a few. Possibly the circle of mages.
Not really, his invulerability hardly came up apart from his heart tearing feat. Other than that, the majority of the games have him as a badass without taking hardly any wounds if any.
Exactly, plot induced stupidity. As I said, based on Kains knowledge and power he could have destroyed Raziel if he wished.
So thats a rule your implying through your title as thread starter? your not actually saying this is how you belive it is in canon?
And as for the laughable idea from the Link side that the trueforce does anything other than flounder in this fight, the trueforce is beaten by old men and knights and later, a Ganon wielding the trueforce is beaten by a boy with a sword and silver arrows. It does not help anyone and the Lokverse have two battle enders that actually work, the council of 9 and the Elder God.
Originally posted by quanchi112
.You really are something if you think fictional universes have to follow the laws of physics.
The point is Kain is stronger than Link who needs iron boots to pull off the goron feats and Midna to overpower Ganon while in wolf form.
Link barely able to move while using the ball and chain shows you just how weak of a guy he is.
Indeed, given an anchor (Kain has his own in the fact his feet have claws) Kain would improve the Goron toss many fold based on real feats.
I never heard of this before, does link really struggle using a ball and chain? lol...can you show me this it sounds amusing?
Originally posted by Burning thought
I never heard of this before, does link really struggle using a ball and chain? lol...can you show me this it sounds amusing?
3:10 This miniboss is where he gets the Ball & Chain. Notice the knight swings it with one hand hand? I don't want anyone claiming this guy is at a strength level over class 100 because that's BS.
5:50-6:09 Link uses the thing and it requires both arms. Stronger than the
Spoiler:? My ass.
Golden Gauntlets
Originally posted by Burning thoughtI mean they the characters at the point in the game we see exist in this army. The sarafan left at the times seen in this game are included in this thread just like the rest of the enemies.
What do you mean by this? do you mean they have the exact characters we actually see, because we dont actually see an army of Sarafan or Hylden, they simply exist in the Lokverse at the same time period, just like how most of the characters fit in the time periods of Defiance. Only characters we see on-screen in TP and Defiance are in this fight?No, your baseing the fight on how they have decided to fight in a particular example from the games. Your pretty much comitting a huge hasty generalisation fallacy. Because Kain is purely power based, despite physical power beyond his opponents he is more of an intelligent sorceror/mage character than a brawler.
Why? thats what the reaver is, thats what the reaver does. Its far superior to any of their weapons and has a vast number of capabilities. It does overpower the MS, you seem to be ignoring powers and abilities and you act like you dont actually want either side to win because you keep saying how we cant imply one aspect is more powerful than another.
But Kain, Elder God and Raziel "can" with ease to name a few. Possibly the circle of mages.
Not really, his invulerability hardly came up apart from his heart tearing feat. Other than that, the majority of the games have him as a badass without taking hardly any wounds if any.
Exactly, plot induced stupidity. As I said, based on Kains knowledge and power he could have destroyed Raziel if he wished.
So thats a rule your implying through your title as thread starter? your not actually saying this is how you belive it is in canon?
And as for the laughable idea from the Link side that the trueforce does anything other than flounder in this fight, the trueforce is beaten by old men and knights and later, a Ganon wielding the trueforce is beaten by a boy with a sword and silver arrows. It does not help anyone and the Lokverse have two battle enders that actually work, the council of 9 and the Elder God.
Indeed, given an anchor (Kain has his own in the fact his feet have claws) Kain would improve the Goron toss many fold based on real feats.
I never heard of this before, does link really struggle using a ball and chain? lol...can you show me this it sounds amusing?
He tends to swordfight and he did just that against the Sarafan Lord at the beginning of part one despite all his knowledge and powers from part 1. They abandoned his abilities for the most part from that game and so have I.
I am doing that for the reason of being fair and to not let this thread disappear into a pissing match with each side going on and on about how much better and more powerful their characters, etc. are. Both swords are equal in terms they can both block and hurt their opponents strikes. This issue isn't up for debate and I don't want it to fade into this sort of thing.
None of these characters has beaten entire armies though.
he was nursed back to health in part 2 and once he regained his strength was he able to challenge the Sarafan Lord. They met earlier in the game and he wanted to challenge him but they were right to teleport him away because he wasn't ready for the sarafan Lord just yet.
I agree he is more formidable than Raziel but it's still close and isn't onesided domination.
Being canon and being fair are two different things. When debating with two fictional universes we have to make things fair.
The Link fans have exaggerated every strength feat he has. I played the game and tbh I thought he was a wimpy hero coming off dante's inferno and gow3.
I think he's a great warrior and what not but he isn't incredibly strong he is just highly skilled with great gear to do what he needs to do throughout the games.
Link was never meant to be some superstrong character in this game anyways. You can tell the way he wields the ball and chain an dhow gingerly he climbs up a wall of grass.
With this all being said these battles are going to be decided by swordfighting with the major characters here anyways.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I mean they the characters at the point in the game we see exist in this army. The sarafan left at the times seen in this game are included in this thread just like the rest of the enemies.He tends to swordfight and he did just that against the Sarafan Lord at the beginning of part one despite all his knowledge and powers from part 1. They abandoned his abilities for the most part from that game and so have I.
I am doing that for the reason of being fair and to not let this thread disappear into a pissing match with each side going on and on about how much better and more powerful their characters, etc. are. Both swords are equal in terms they can both block and hurt their opponents strikes. This issue isn't up for debate and I don't want it to fade into this sort of thing.
None of these characters has beaten entire armies though.
he was nursed back to health in part 2 and once he regained his strength was he able to challenge the Sarafan Lord. They met earlier in the game and he wanted to challenge him but they were right to teleport him away because he wasn't ready for the sarafan Lord just yet.
I agree he is more formidable than Raziel but it's still close and isn't onesided domination.
Being canon and being fair are two different things. When debating with two fictional universes we have to make things fair.
The Link fans have exaggerated every strength feat he has. I played the game and tbh I thought he was a wimpy hero coming off dante's inferno and gow3.
I think he's a great warrior and what not but he isn't incredibly strong he is just highly skilled with great gear to do what he needs to do throughout the games.
Link was never meant to be some superstrong character in this game anyways. You can tell the way he wields the ball and chain an dhow gingerly he climbs up a wall of grass.
With this all being said these battles are going to be decided by swordfighting with the major characters here anyways.
Based on actual time periods of defiance, all characters throughout the series would be in this fight apart from Soul reaver era and blood omen 2. The entire council of mages, the Hylden lord at the end of Defiance and Turel would be the major players for LoK.
That does not mean he would not use those powers in a fight, if that was your claim then thats called a hasty generalisation fallacy. As a weapon the Soulreaver is Kains most powerful regardless of his other abilities, but basing Kains fighting style on a couple of specific examples is generalisation. The actual character himself uses a vast variety of powers throughout all his games.
That will always happen in these kinds of threads because obviously one side has some more powerful elements than the other.
So?, iirc neither has Kronos, Atlas or Gaia from God of War, this does not ignore the fact that the size of them Titans would allow them to step on an army quite easily....would you argue against this?
Although technically we dont see him harmed, only defeated. I think the Sarafan lords sword passed through Kain and he was undamaged. Here:
The Sarafan lords sword passed right through his torso and the energy disapated on Kains chest. Although Kain was defeated, he is left physically unharmed by the blow.
I would argue that, I dont think Raziel in truth has anything on Kain. If Kain was serious about destroying Raziel he could do it with ease, see how easily Kain manhandles and toys with Raziel in the Intro to Soul reaver 2?
Raziels laying into Kain with anger and yet Kain plucks him out of the air, blasts him across the room and even when slashed by Raziels concrete carving claws Kain is not even scratched. Note hes not even holding the Soulreaver.
How can it possibly be fair? one side will always have an advantage in one way or another. You would have to rule that neither can use more than just similiar powers, e.g. fireball vs fireblast, teleport vs teleport etc, and make them all at the same strength, skill and durability etc.
I have not played the games of Legend of Zelda but I have watched their vids and have researched them myself. Link is nowhere near as strong, fast or as skilled as they want to imply and neither is Ganon. The only near to impressive feats are exaggerated toonforce, if someone wants to use toonforce then fine but you would have to equelise the field and create a toon Kain/Raziel somehow by multiplying power based on ignorence of physics/truth.
Thats what I would agree on, Link has some skill with his weapons its true, is a quick learner and has a large range of gadgets but hes no Kratos, kain or Dante, hes not supernaturally enhanced.
The council dont use swords, the wizards like Moebius and Mortanius use magic solely. So did the Sarafan lord when in the body of Janos. Turel being a large beast obviously did not use sword, he used his scionic pulses of sound.