Originally posted by quanchi112
The point is you cannot stop any Goron's ball charge without the iron boots. You need the weight.
Had the cliff not been there, he would have. Regardless of that, after he stopped the goron, he picked it up and threw it.
Think about how pressed Link is when he uses the ball and chain in the game. He doesn't appear strong at all.
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Like I said Midna is overpowering him and that's when Link's wolf legs aren't moving backward and he's pressing off from the ground.
At the point where Ganon charged, Link stopped stopped him. When Ganon pushed forward, Link stopped him. Only after Link stops him does Midna actually do anything.
Either way it's a wolf not human form Link.
I don't even remember why it was brought up.
You really are something if you think fictional universes have to follow the laws of physics.
It tends to lend them credibility. Can you prove that Kain is as strong as you say he is? It'd be very difficult if LoK follows different physics. Whatever Kain lifts might be a completely different weight, and you have no way to prove that it's heavy without assuming the same physics as our universe.
The point is Kain is stronger than Link who needs iron boots to pull off the goron feats and Midna to overpower Ganon while in wolf form.
Can you prove this? Really, go ahead. I think it's our turn to pick apart your evidence the way you've been questioning ours.
Who has Link manhandled without an item or another character that shows us how strong he is?
Ganondorf.
Originally posted by Burning thoughtBut they aren't as I said. That's really tilting the thread in lok's favor.
Based on actual time periods of defiance, all characters throughout the series would be in this fight apart from Soul reaver era and blood omen 2. The entire council of mages, the Hylden lord at the end of Defiance and Turel would be the major players for LoK.That does not mean he would not use those powers in a fight, if that was your claim then thats called a hasty generalisation fallacy. As a weapon the Soulreaver is Kains most powerful regardless of his other abilities, but basing Kains fighting style on a couple of specific examples is generalisation. The actual character himself uses a vast variety of powers throughout all his games.
That will always happen in these kinds of threads because obviously one side has some more powerful elements than the other.
So?, iirc neither has Kronos, Atlas or Gaia from God of War, this does not ignore the fact that the size of them Titans would allow them to step on an army quite easily....would you argue against this?
Although technically we dont see him harmed, only defeated. I think the Sarafan lords sword passed through Kain and he was undamaged. Here:
The Sarafan lords sword passed right through his torso and the energy disapated on Kains chest. Although Kain was defeated, he is left physically unharmed by the blow.
I would argue that, I dont think Raziel in truth has anything on Kain. If Kain was serious about destroying Raziel he could do it with ease, see how easily Kain manhandles and toys with Raziel in the Intro to Soul reaver 2?
Raziels laying into Kain with anger and yet Kain plucks him out of the air, blasts him across the room and even when slashed by Raziels concrete carving claws Kain is not even scratched. Note hes not even holding the Soulreaver.
How can it possibly be fair? one side will always have an advantage in one way or another. You would have to rule that neither can use more than just similiar powers, e.g. fireball vs fireblast, teleport vs teleport etc, and make them all at the same strength, skill and durability etc.
I have not played the games of Legend of Zelda but I have watched their vids and have researched them myself. Link is nowhere near as strong, fast or as skilled as they want to imply and neither is Ganon. The only near to impressive feats are exaggerated toonforce, if someone wants to use toonforce then fine but you would have to equelise the field and create a toon Kain/Raziel somehow by multiplying power based on ignorence of physics/truth.
Thats what I would agree on, Link has some skill with his weapons its true, is a quick learner and has a large range of gadgets but hes no Kratos, kain or Dante, hes not supernaturally enhanced.
The council dont use swords, the wizards like Moebius and Mortanius use magic solely. So did the Sarafan lord when in the body of Janos. Turel being a large beast obviously did not use sword, he used his scionic pulses of sound.
Again find me a cinema where Kain uses his b0 1 abilities like you claim he would here? He doesn't he fights with his sword. Both giant battles and all cinemas have him use tk, teleportation, and a random energy blast outside sword attacks so that's what goes here.
Cronos, Gaea, and the rest cannot solo armies either. We saw them stomped by gods and their warriors various times and we saw one Zeus blast completely rock gaea.
Dude, he had to be nursed back to health how many years later yet you think he was just defeated? Come on bt I played the game.
No, not with ease and it's never been established he can do so you can have that opinion but can't support it especially since he couldn't protect himself from a possessed raziel.
What the hell does toonforce mean?
I agree Link is just a great warrior who has fantastic gear and is highly skilled but the things he doe doesn't make him super strong or anywhere near it.
I know they get to use their abilities but for the most part it's weapon vs. weapon. You catch my drift I hope.
Originally posted by MooCowofJusticeIt is heavy but it once again shows Link not to be super strong at all. He can barely move when he wields it and it kills his mobility. I grasp the game for what it is whereas most zelda fans take things out of context to try to create some kind of superstrong character when he's no such thing in this game anyways.
Link does not struggle to lift the ball and chain, its just an animation. Besides, you again assume whatever suits your needs based on specific information. The ball and chain can't be heavy, right? So that means Link has to be weak.Lol'd at Kain having "real feats" too. He doesn't have any at all.
Originally posted by The ScenarioHe needed the boots so since he relies on gear it's not a feat on his own.
Had the cliff not been there, he would have. Regardless of that, after he stopped the goron, he picked it up and threw it.hCAHrg5VZjM&feature=related
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At the point where Ganon charged, Link stopped stopped him. When Ganon pushed forward, Link stopped him. Only after Link stops him does Midna actually do anything.
I don't even remember why it was brought up.
It tends to lend them credibility. Can you prove that Kain is as strong as you say he is? It'd be very difficult if LoK follows different physics. Whatever Kain lifts might be a completely different weight, and you have no way to prove that it's heavy without assuming the same physics as our universe.
Can you prove this? Really, go ahead. I think it's our turn to pick apart your evidence the way you've been questioning ours.
Ganondorf.
We disagree on the wolf but it's wolf link not regular Link so who cares. it doesn't apply to human form Link as a strength feat so it's a moot point anyways.
Neither do I.
I am using logic and common sense to determine what the creators have in mind for these characters. Kain isn't the most strong guy out there but he's obviously stronger than any human whereas Link isn't. I don't think strength determines this anyways and I believe with the major characters it comes down to swordplay.
I've showed him manhandle Raziel while I haven't seen Link manhandle anyone. I think this along with the statements, and abilities of Kain to tear hearts out of still beating chests more than proves he is superior when it comes to strength.
When did he manhandle Ganondorf?
Originally posted by quanchi112
It is heavy but it once again shows Link not to be super strong at all. He can barely move when he wields it and it kills his mobility. I grasp the game for what it is whereas most zelda fans take things out of context to try to create some kind of superstrong character when he's no such thing in this game anyways.
You cannot write off strength based on the animation specifically. He's lifted things far heavier without trouble. It's just a stupid little discrepancy.
They don't just happen in this game either. These stupid little discrepancies exist in a lot of games. I can cite specific examples in God of War. And I'm sure I could do the same for LoK if I cared enough to play it.
Originally posted by quanchi112
He needed the boots so since he relies on gear it's not a feat on his own.
He needs the boots for weight, that's it. It doesn't mean he isn't strong.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I am using logic and common sense to determine what the creators have in mind for these characters. Kain isn't the most strong guy out there but he's obviously stronger than any human whereas Link isn't. I don't think strength determines this anyways and I believe with the major characters it comes down to swordplay.
Link is stronger than Kain. Kain's best is like 80 tons, Link's earliest impressive is 200 tons.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I've showed him manhandle Raziel while I haven't seen Link manhandle anyone. I think this along with the statements, and abilities of Kain to tear hearts out of still beating chests more than proves he is superior when it comes to strength.When did he manhandle Ganondorf?
Manhandling Dangoro is better than Raziel.
Originally posted by quanchi112He needed the boots so since he relies on gear it's not a feat on his own.
Once again, after the Goron was stopped, the Iron Boots were no longer necesary. He needed the anchorage of the boots to stop the Goron. After it had stopped moving, Link picked it up with his arms, something that the boots had nothing to do with. Look, just split this into two different feats: 1) stopping Goron and 2) tossing Goron.
In feat 1, Link needs the Iron Boots to weigh him down so that the Goron won't push him off a cliff. Since we can clearly see Link catching and slowing the Goron without the Iron Boots, the only thing they did was weigh him down and stop him from sliding too far. That's it. Link's arms just caught a rock creature rolling down a hill, and did not break. Because Link is strong, he prevented this from from happening:
http://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic1-121406.php
In feat 2, Link picks up the Goron after it has been stopped and throws it. The boots, which only make Link heavy, have nothing to do with this. It's all Link, and he picks up the Goron on his own, then throws it. He does not need the boots once the Goron has stopped moving. This is still a strength feat.
We disagree on the wolf but it's wolf link not regular Link so who cares. it doesn't apply to human form Link as a strength feat so it's a moot point anyways.
Still, Wolf Link is strong as well. Both forms are very physically powerful.
I am using logic and common sense to determine what the creators have in mind for these characters. Kain isn't the most strong guy out there but he's obviously stronger than any human whereas Link isn't. I don't think strength determines this anyways and I believe with the major characters it comes down to swordplay.
So are we. Link is intended to be a Hero and he holds the Triforce of Courage, which makes him a bit more than a simple Hylian (Link is not human, by the way.) Strength will play a large part in most battles, however, and it will be necessary to have a known strength. On the other hand, not much really stops Link from sniping everyone before they realize he's there with the Hawkeye + Hero's Bow (Bomb Arrows optional.)
I've showed him manhandle Raziel while I haven't seen Link manhandle anyone. I think this along with the statements, and abilities of Kain to tear hearts out of still beating chests more than proves he is superior when it comes to strength.
So? What does that mean, strengthwise? I can see him being superior to a human, but that doesn't mean anything to Link. Can you provide evidence of Kain being stronger than Link?
When did he manhandle Ganondorf?
Twilight Princess final battle, in the swordlock. Knocks him off balance then destroys him.
Originally posted by MooCowofJusticeWhen has lifted anything heavier without his boots?
You cannot write off strength based on the animation specifically. He's lifted things far heavier without trouble. It's just a stupid little discrepancy.They don't just happen in this game either. These stupid little discrepancies exist in a lot of games. I can cite specific examples in God of War. And I'm sure I could do the same for LoK if I cared enough to play it.
He needs the boots for weight, that's it. It doesn't mean he isn't strong.
Link is stronger than Kain. Kain's best is like 80 tons, Link's earliest impressive is 200 tons.
Manhandling Dangoro is better than Raziel.
I think the point is Kratos is incredibly strong and that Kain is above any human being whereas Link isn't. That's rather obvious.
Yes, because weight has something to do with the actual feat and that by himself he cannot perform the same feat.
I don't think the creators have specific weights involved when doing what comprising these feats. I think Kain is stronger than Link based on common sense while I played through the games as I did with Link here. At no point in the game did I ever feel like Link was abnormally strong since Bo outwrestled a goron as well with iron boots.
He needed the boots to do so once again whereas Kain just easily tossed raziel.
Originally posted by ScreamPasteI am citing the game and not cherry picking feats he needed specific items to aid him in performing the feats.
Quanchi is still ignoring Link's superior strength? Lol'd.Moot point is moot. Ganondorf soloes, or for epic spite, Ganondorf, Link, and Zelda assemble the triforce and wish for a win.
There are no instances of wishing in tp for a win and such a thing is about as ridiculous as saying kain solos. Neither character can and Ganondrof was beaten both times by far less than an army.
Originally posted by The ScenarioThe iron boots were needed to stop the goron's momentum so the feat is disqualified. The boots gave him the weight needed for the feat so once again he has no instances of insane strength outside an item aiding him in doing so.
Once again, after the Goron was stopped, the Iron Boots were no longer necesary. He needed the anchorage of the boots to stop the Goron. After it had stopped moving, Link picked it up with his arms, something that the boots had nothing to do with. Look, just split this into two different feats: 1) stopping Goron and 2) tossing Goron.In feat 1, Link needs the Iron Boots to weigh him down so that the Goron won't push him off a cliff. Since we can clearly see Link catching and slowing the Goron without the Iron Boots, the only thing they did was weigh him down and stop him from sliding too far. That's it. Link's arms just caught a rock creature rolling down a hill, and did not break. Because Link is strong, he prevented this from from happening:
http://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic1-121406.php
In feat 2, Link picks up the Goron after it has been stopped and throws it. The boots, which only make Link heavy, have nothing to do with this. It's all Link, and he picks up the Goron on his own, then throws it. He does not need the boots once the Goron has stopped moving. This is still a strength feat.
Still, Wolf Link is strong as well. Both forms are very physically powerful.
So are we. Link is intended to be a Hero and he holds the Triforce of Courage, which makes him a bit more than a simple Hylian (Link is not human, by the way.) Strength will play a large part in most battles, however, and it will be necessary to have a known strength. On the other hand, not much really stops Link from sniping everyone before they realize he's there with the Hawkeye + Hero's Bow (Bomb Arrows optional.)
So? What does that mean, strengthwise? I can see him being superior to a human, but that doesn't mean anything to Link. Can you provide evidence of Kain being stronger than Link?
Twilight Princess final battle, in the swordlock. Knocks him off balance then destroys him.
It doesn't count for human link so who cares and you're wrong anyways as he had aid in stopping Ganondorf.
Yes, Link is an incredibly skilled hero here who through aid and the proper skills is destined to beat Ganondorf. He isn't some genetic freak running around by any means. If he touches a spider while walking on shrubbery the guy just gets blasted off.
So now Link can take out an entire army before they even realize he's there despite the fact they can teleport and also attack from considerable distances? Give me a break here.
I already have. Show me Link manhandling anyone in human form without his boots and then we can talk.
He weakens him with sword strikes he doesn't just overpower him with raw strength. If someone kept stabbing me I bet I'd go down a lot easier as well.
When has lifted anything heavier without his boots?The entire game. 😐 He lifts large stone doors, pushes large stone blocks, throws giant ****ing Gorons, ect.
I think the point is Kratos is incredibly strong and that Kain is above any human being whereas Link isn't. That's rather obvious.
Yes, because weight has something to do with the actual feat and that by himself he cannot perform the same feat.No character who is not a reality warper of some kind can. Period. 😐 A larger mass in motion will move a smaller mass. End of discussion. that's physics.
I think Kain is stronger than Link based on common sense
At no point in the game did I ever feel like Link was abnormally strong since Bo outwrestled a goron as well with iron boots.what you feel means dick, to be blunt, because Link actively shows he has super strength. 🙂 Also, Bo is never concluded to have won, period. You assume he did.
I am citing the game and not cherry picking feats he needed specific items to aid him in performing the feats.Kain would have needed boots to do the same feat, and in all likelihoodwould have still failed miserably because he isn't nearly as strong as Link is, even that early in the game.
There are no instances of wishing in tp for a win and such a thing is about as ridiculous as saying kain solos. Neither character can and Ganondrof was beaten both times by far less than an army.
Ganondorf was beaten by Link, with some help from other superhumans. Link's very powerful, and you like to ignore that. Ganondorf has some seriously powerful feats, above any that I've seen from the LoK verse.
The iron boots were needed to stop the goron's momentum so the feat is disqualified.😐 The feat is disqualified for OBEYING PHYSICS? haermm Um, no. That's not how it works. You are not the final adjudicator of what is canon, what is not, and what is valid in a logical debate. 🙂
The boots gave him the weight needed for the feat so once again he has no instances of insane strength outside an item aiding him in doing so.Being heavy does not amp your strength, your point is invalid.
Yes, Link is an incredibly skilled hero here who through aid and the proper skills is destined to beat Ganondorf. He isn't some genetic freak running around by any means. If he touches a spider while walking on shrubbery the guy just gets blasted off.He's not a genetic mutant, no, but he does have a divine relic which empowers him with super strength, to soem small degree speed (his attacks), durability, skill, and reflexes. Gameplay, by this standard Kain is knocked on his ass by normal men.
So now Link can take out an entire army before they even realize he's there despite the fact they can teleport and also attack from considerable distances? Give me a break here.Not to bust your bubble but... He's done that before. So, yes.
I already have. Show me Link manhandling anyone in human form without his boots and then we can talk.K, go wear some cement shoes and attemtp a fist fight/wrestling match with someone. I garuntee they do not make you stronger. 🙂 Link being able to fight and overpower opponents in them is only more of a feat. 🙂
Originally posted by ScreamPasteYes, he's strong but nowhere near Kain level. Kain also lifts blocks and what not but in comparison to human beings he's well beyond them whereas Link isn't.
The entire game. 😐 He lifts large stone doors, pushes large stone blocks, throws giant ****ing Gorons, ect.Link is also incredibly strong, far above Kain, as has been proven. What you "feel" doesn't matter in the face of actual feats.
No character who is not a reality warper of some kind can. Period. 😐 A larger mass in motion will move a smaller mass. End of discussion. that's physics.
Uhm, lol? Except Kain has no feats anywhere near Link's level.
what you feel means dick, to be blunt, because Link actively shows he has super strength. 🙂 Also, Bo is never concluded to have won, period. You assume he did.
Kain would have needed boots to do the same feat, and in all likelihoodwould have still failed miserably because he isn't nearly as strong as Link is, even that early in the game.The triforce is in TP. Kain soloing actually would be ridiculous, because he's comparitively weak. 😬
Ganondorf was beaten by Link, with some help from other superhumans. Link's very powerful, and you like to ignore that. Ganondorf has some seriously powerful feats, above any that I've seen from the LoK verse.
He only throws Gorons because of the iron boots. Context is everything.
No, it hasn't been proven and the mere fact Link can barely move while holding his ball and chain while the enemy who wielded it did so with general ease this should tell you something.
Physics don't apply to fictional universes not do their feats have to make sense. Is this really what you think when reading a comic or playing a video game is that they made it line up with physics of our reality?
Ripping out hearts, tossing his foe around a considerable distance without any real effort should be proof enough.
Bob did when hence the respect he got. Only a Link fanatic would claim Bo didn't win and continually misrepresent evidence to exaggerate Link's feats which were subpar at best.
You can't prove that and it's hearsay. We do know Kain can rip people's hearts out can Link?
Yes, but where in tp did the triforce solo an entire army by itself? Please where did I miss it?
LOL, you call him weak when we see Link get crushed over by Yeta, struggle to lift a ball and chain, and fly off shrubs when a spider touches him.
You exaggerate every single feat out there. Nothing you say is even close to how it is portrayed so I could care less what you say as it's completely biased towards one side.
Kratos is a normal human because, despite an ability in his first game to yank an enormous Hydra head against it's will and impale it upon a ship's mast, he still struggles to shove his sword down the throat of a tiny minotaur and cannot destroy a door merely because it is reinforced.
Does it still sound intelligent to say Link isn't strong?
Originally posted by MooCowofJusticeYes, meaning without the boots he cannot do so and would be ran right over. I guess Kratos' feat while resisting Cronos' fingers defies physics, right? Creators don't take physics into consideration most of the time and it doesn't need to add up.
Because you need to be heavier to stop heavy objects in motion.
Originally posted by MooCowofJusticeHe only struggles because it's fighting back or trying to resist. He's a lot stronger than Link in every sense of the word. The way he climbs something, the manner in which he kills, his boss battles, and he's a lot more skilled than Link.
Kratos is a normal human because, despite an ability in his first game to yank an enormous Hydra head against it's will and impale it upon a ship's mast, he still struggles to shove his sword down the throat of a tiny minotaur and cannot destroy a door merely because it is reinforced.Does it still sound intelligent to say Link isn't strong?
Link has no chance whatsoever from tp to compare to Kratos in any sense of the word.