LOK3 Defiance vs. Twilight Princess

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
True enough. But Dangoro makes no mention of serious wounds, and sparks still fly. Dangoro actually only acknowledges that it hurt, and he was more likely talking about the lava.

Exactly. And no on the human skin. Actually, I see no reason to believe otherwise. The back and other portions with much rock looking rock can be attributed to how Gorons roll around. The rest of their skin may well be different looking, but it can still be made of rock.

The comparison was more about the internal organs. You know, since they eat rocks, they have to digest rocks.

Lies, sir. Quotes, and there is no reason to believe otherwise, though you may think so.

Exactly? Its an aesthetics problem not that theyre 'cant' be flexible, just got the rocky back in the way. Quotes you say? Care to show me a quote that says that they're only made of rock and rock alone, 100%? [Refer to my answer to SP's last post.]

We got fat rolls, muscles lines, creases and fold in the body. And rock does that?
Now here's something a little bit better:

...Hair isnt rock. The skin stretching for that gut. The skin creasing and folding. The skin moulding over the muscles and bones. And my new fav, veins. Veins means a blood network or something like it and I dont see mini rocks going through them. So liquid, a heart and organs and also do you see how popped up they are? That means the skin isnt so thick or tough as rock as its being pushed aside by a strong pulse... Its skin.

Damn son. There's no more to do about that.

Dangoro is maybe 30 tons of the rock portion of him. The organic portion is still very heavy, since he's much bigger than a hippo, I'd say that would add another 5 tons to his weight. A modest elephant's weight.

All In all I'd say Dangoro was close to 50 tons including the armor.

Ive bashed this into their heads so many times, but their not going to listen. Just shout "zomg 1000 ton linkz!" and continue with their fallacios nonsense not supported by the canon. Its clear by most images of Gorons that their not 100% rock and nothing even suggests it in the games (otherwise they may have some evidence).

And Cosmic, the 30 tonnes figuire is for Dangoro all together.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Zant doesn't get any wounds either and he looks human by body. Two things; can you show me the Goron sparks compared to other enemies? Tried and fail at locating anything that looked like sparks. And sparks coming off the skin is interesting. Its obvious that its not make of rock as it flexes and acts like skin. Hm..

Exactly? Its an aesthetics problem not that theyre 'cant' be flexible, just got the rocky back in the way. Quotes you say? Care to show me a quote that says that they're only made of rock and rock alone, 100%? [Refer to my answer to SP's last post.]

We got fat rolls, muscles lines, creases and fold in the body. And rock does that?
Now here's something a little bit better:

...Hair isnt rock. The skin stretching for that gut. The skin creasing and folding. The skin moulding over the muscles and bones. And my new fav, veins. Veins means a blood network or something like it and I dont see mini rocks going through them. So liquid, a heart and organs and also do you see how popped up they are? That means the skin isnt so thick or tough as rock as its being pushed aside by a strong pulse... Its skin.

Having Ganon's amazing durability helps.

Depends. It flexes though?

How is their back being in the way an aesthetics problem?

Can I show you one that says they are 100% rock? No. But as far as I know, there are several that state they are made of rock. If we have to have a percentage in there then I will need to see some quotes on some other things with percentages.

Have we seen this fat jiggle? I don't see any stretch marks. Have we seen this hair move? Veins do not disprove anything either, they could be made of rock, if they are used at all. A primary use of blood is to transport oxygen to muscles, as well as other things like nutrients. They do not require oxygen, unless you can find some gills somewhere. They eat rocks, rocks do not have any nutrients. They do however, drink water. These veins may also be constantly like that, not necessarily popped up by a strong pulse.

However, I'm certain you would be surprised by the properties of some rock. Saw one today that looked like film for a camera.

Logic of this thread: Cronos skin flexes, he's light. 😐 Gorons move, no surprise there. Otherwise they'd be statues. GG. A goron can ride an explosion across a country and stay under water indefinitely with no negative repurcussions. CLEARLY they are made of flesh and bone.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Having Ganon's amazing durability helps.

Depends. It flexes though?

How is their back being in the way an aesthetics problem?

Can I show you one that says they are 100% rock? No. But as far as I know, there are several that state they are made of rock. If we have to have a percentage in there then I will need to see some quotes on some other things with percentages.

Have we seen this fat jiggle? I don't see any stretch marks. Have we seen this hair move? Veins do not disprove anything either, they could be made of rock, if they are used at all. A primary use of blood is to transport oxygen to muscles, as well as other things like nutrients. They do not require oxygen, unless you can find some gills somewhere. They eat rocks, rocks do not have any nutrients. They do however, drink water. These veins may also be constantly like that, not necessarily popped up by a strong pulse.

However, I'm certain you would be surprised by the properties of some rock. Saw one today that looked like film for a camera.

Ganon? Zant, Zant. His body is his own. And any other boss that can take a few hits.

Acts like skin not a layer of rock.

Like I said if your back and neck turned into rock you would lose flexibility, so Goron's not being flexible is only because of that back. Not a major point.

''Houses are made of bricks,'' ''People are made of flesh,'' ''Gorons are made of rock.'' All of those things have been said and only right on the surface.

Does anyone's anything move in that game? Rock veins that increase in size with a high.. rock pressure... yah-huh. Like I said the exact purpose is not needed, only that they have veins and can increase and push the skin out. Meaning again the skin is not thick or as tough as rock as rock would not do what's in that picture. I mean look at the right forearm and hand and how much it pops out. Cant be rock.

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In all honesty I'm surprised the supporters will say that it can not be a kind of flesh and has to be rock. Kind of a plain in sight thing.

Yo, SP. That last part is playing with fictional durability. Like how Link can take x amount of force that would kill a whale but he's got a human anatomy of flech and bone. And Cronos is huge and would have very thick skin. Quite odd and not thought out examples there and ones that dont help make a point. `-`

Originally posted by BloodRain
Ganon? Zant, Zant. His body is his own. And any other boss that can take a few hits.

Acts like skin not a layer of rock.

Like I said if your back and neck turned into rock you would lose flexibility, so Goron's not being flexible is only because of that back. Not a major point.

''Houses are made of bricks,'' ''People are made of flesh,'' ''Gorons are made of rock.'' All of those things have been said and only right on the surface.

Does anyone's anything move in that game? Rock veins that increase in size with a high.. rock pressure... yah-huh. Like I said the exact purpose is not needed, only that they have veins and can increase and push the skin out. Meaning again the skin is not thick or as tough as rock as rock would not do what's in that picture. I mean look at the right forearm and hand and how much it pops out. Cant be rock.

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In all honesty I'm surprised the supporters will say that it can not be a kind of flesh and has to be rock. Kind of a plain in sight thing.

Yo, SP. That last part is playing with fictional durability. Like how Link can take x amount of force that would kill a whale but he's got a human anatomy of flech and bone. And Cronos is huge and would have very thick skin. Quite odd and not thought out examples there and ones that dont help make a point. `-`

Most of Ganon's awesomeness comes from the Triforce of Power, which is kind of housed inside Zant, along with Ganon.

Which does not disprove it's heavy, or as hard as rock. Ever hear of Colossus? An organic steel.

Forget why I said it anyway.

No reason to believe it's only rock where you say, or only rock on the outside. In fact, there is more reason to believe they are rock on the inside.

Well, there are Gorons in TP with "hair", and Link's hat moves. So why didn't that Goron hair move?

Not sure what you're talking about. Did Darunia's veins ever even show in game? I believe that falls under a minor detail. Actually, a purpose would indeed be needed. It helps to prove that they are even used and not just placed there for...an aesthetic reason, perhaps? Can't never did anything. No reason to believe that may not be there constantly.

You really shouldn't be surprised. Nobody takes anything as is anymore.

Originally posted by BloodRain
[B]✓ Sure, why not. So we're setting the rock part of Gorons at 2/5?

I wouldn't know, nor will I care to discuss it. I'll just go with whatever's decided.

Using 32 tons as the weight would make the strips on his ankle nearly twice as heavy as Link.. 596 tons would make the ankle ones 2 tons each >.>
Size I got for the large plates were (5*45*150[cm])7.8[iron]= 263250g/0.3tons.

What do you mean by the strips at his ankles? I never measured them and I don't think their weight is related to the weight of the plating, so the plates being possibly 32 tons wouldn't affect their weight. I'm still getting a ridiculous number on the plates, though, even with your measurements. I did convert to standard, though. With this (http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_metals.htm), Iron is 490 lbs/cu.ft

1.9*17.7*59[in]=1988.4cu.in
1988.4/12=165.7cu.ft
165.7*490=811994.3lbs

Or 40.6 tons.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Most of Ganon's awesomeness comes from the Triforce of Power, which is kind of housed inside Zant, along with Ganon.

Which does not disprove it's heavy, or as hard as rock. Ever hear of Colossus? An organic steel.

Forget why I said it anyway.

No reason to believe it's only rock where you say, or only rock on the outside. In fact, there is more reason to believe they are rock on the inside.

Well, there are Gorons in TP with "hair", and Link's hat moves. So why didn't that Goron hair move?

Not sure what you're talking about. Did Darunia's veins ever even show in game? I believe that falls under a minor detail. Actually, a purpose would indeed be needed. It helps to prove that they are even used and not just placed there for...an aesthetic reason, perhaps? Can't never did anything. No reason to believe that may not be there constantly.

You really shouldn't be surprised. Nobody takes anything as is anymore.

The organic rock would be the things sprouting off their backs. The skin doesn't even look like rock :/
Likewise that there's no reason to believe that they are completely solid. Actually the oppose have one thing; looking at one. And its not where I say the rocks are its where the rocks are visually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo5_QSlxpI0#t=3m25s MM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA3NQ8BfZrw#t=1m15s TP
Yar.

Old game gonna have that much detail in-game? Are there on the official artwork so he has them, why him? Because he's a muscular exception and like muscular guys gets veiny at times. Not it wouldnt and you cant really have an aesthetic reason for veins .__. They serve their purpose whatever it is like ours serve there own purpose.

Yeah but the top lllc [that even used anymore >>] members are meant to be some of the people that hold on to logic effectively.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I wouldn't know, nor will I care to discuss it. I'll just go with whatever's decided.

What do you mean by the strips at his ankles? I never measured them and I don't think their weight is related to the weight of the plating, so the plates being possibly 32 tons wouldn't affect their weight. I'm still getting a ridiculous number on the plates, though, even with your measurements. I did convert to standard, though. With this (http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_metals.htm), Iron is 490 lbs/cu.ft

1.9*17.7*59[in]=1988.4cu.in
1988.4/12=165.7cu.ft
165.7*490=811994.3lbs

Or 40.6 tons.

Those metal shackle/things on his ankle are around 1/5-10 the plates size, so those ankle rings that is could fit round your leg is 4+tons. 40 tons each would make all 6 half a jumbo jet..
I dont get it: 5cm*45cm*150cm=33750*7.8= 263250g/0.3tons. I thought you using imperial units was changing the results but thats a large change.

Think this detour is almost over.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well ill use the common figuire that is also my work, 50 tonnes. Its irrelevant, 20,30, 50 tonnes. Kain is still immune and Raziel is still strong.

48 tons. There's still quite a difference 4000lbs can make. Kain is in no way immune

No, that iirc is the top of the tower, the sorcerors themselves and the area they were in seems untouched. But Kain walked throughout the land and the region of Dark Eden and he was not harmed. Twilight does more? all it does is turn peasants into spiritual forms within the twilight realm. The Eden field transforms both natural, living or unliving entities/objects, rains of fire, mutation. Apprently even inside the tower of Dark Eden the sorcerors had warped space creating a kind of "tardis" effect (if you know of Doctor Who).

Can you prove that the effect didn't extend to inside the tower? Actually, you just said it warped the tower, so the effect did as well. Or else it's a separate spell, and not a result of the field. And when will you learn that twilight also affects everything inside it, including rats, bats, peasants, soldiers, Gorons, Zoras, Bulblins, Kargarocs, and Deku-Babas? It's also impossible to enter from the outside once in effect without the help of a Twili. What does the Dark Eden affect? Peasants and rain. It doesn't even affect their souls, like twilight does, so Kain still has no resistance to it.

They looked exactly the same, and whats the difference between those two exactly? your sort of saying that spirit form is different in LoZ if you become a spirit through either death or twilight, can you show me evidence of this?

What? One is the separation of soul and body in twilight, and one is death. There is a difference between ghosts and souls.
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This is a ghost. See how it's in twilight?
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3:06, That's the same ghost. See how it's not in twilight?
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That's living Zoras in twilight.

No, thats how long it takes for the field to transform peasants after its been cast, since we dont know how long it took for Zant to cast it in the first place, since we dont see him. We can only count from after he is off-screen.

And that includes a scene change, so your calculation is automatically invalid. What we saw is twilight descending, and that took three seconds. Then we saw Zant defeat Lanayru and call it back down, which took the same amount of time.

3 seconds is still too long, 3 seconds? in 2 or less a teleporter could have assasinated him, a group of archers could have peppered him with arrows which according to you, is faster than pulling a gun trigger 😉

No teleporter could find Zant if he didn't want to be found, and even Kain's teleports are still too slow. Zant can react to arrows.

Because it would not crack the floor....first of all its not focused because Raziel pushes the majority of the time, second 50 tonnes is not nearly as much as 1000. Your making comparisons as if the two figuires are close. The tank smashes things stronger than mud, point being the weight of an enormous tank being 1k with its weight distributed across its enormous size shattered steel and concrete and tarmac on roads, now imagine all that 1000 tonnes concentrated in the space of a foot. Your playing "silly bugger" if you dont think theres any physics at fault when a guy as small and light as Link lifts it up, dealing no damage the environment, himself or witohut falling over.

Then prove it wouldn't crack the floor when Raziel does lift it. Just because it isn't the majority doesn't mean you can dismiss the fact that at some point Raziel lifts them. I'm just saying that 48 tons is still a lot of weight, and you would also be playing silly bugger if you don't think that there's a physics problem if someone as tiny as Raziel, who possesses human corpses that should not be able take that weight anyway, would lift 48 tons without damaging himself, the environment, or falling over. The only difference is the weight, and 50 tons is still a lot of it. You applying this to Link and not to Raziel is just a double standard.

3 seconds I dont agree with, but ill take it. Zant will be dead in 3 seconds. And for what? trying to cast a field whos force only affects living entities and does nothing but displace souls of the weak. The Dark Fog and twilight are the same thing in different forms because Zant only has that kind of power set.

Zant will have teleported somewhere they can't find him easily, and you have nothing to indicate that any LoK teleporter or anything will be able to pick out Zant among all the other threats, or even know where he is. No one on LoK has resistance to twilight, so I don't see how it won't affect them.

Thats the gist, I cant go outside and shout to my neighbour that I am a "demon king" only for him to label me as evil (insane perhaps in this case). Calling yourself a "dark god" or anything of the sort is not evil. The guy just spent the whole game killing off the corrupted and evil entities who would have wiped out the world, and whats more, in BO2 he goes on the save the world against from the hylden invasion. The guy is a hero more so than evil.

You don't kill people just because. Kain does, and actually states that it's his duty to "thin the herd." He believes killing people is his duty? We've got a guy who kills anyone in his way regardless of their alignment, and goes on to nearly exterminate humanity just so he can take over the world. Oh, you thought he was being heroic in Blood Omen 2?
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You mean the guy who thinks the world belongs to him, that it's his right to rule it? The one who kills an ally just because she tried to kill the guy Kain wants to kill? Kain can't rule the world if the Hylden Lord is ruling it. Kain never does anything to save anyone. It's all for him, and him alone.

I asked for the proof that they were not using twilight magic, or that the fused shadows were not twilight magic.

And I gave it to you. The Dark Interlopers predate the Twili, meaning the magic they used was in use before the Twili or the Twilight Realm even existed.

Well, Zant walks up to Midna within a meter or so of him (short range) and he has to wave his arm which took about a second or so to do for the transformation to take effect on a defencless young woman at that. If you think he would get within rangeo f anyone in LoK, or indeed Kain and actually succeed in transforming Kain who has more magical resistance than Zant has power in his entire body then you are mistkaen.

Okay, few things wrong with this. First off, you actually think that Zant has to be within a meter to cast that spell? There's really no evidence to say he was required to do this. Second, Midna is in no way defenseless. She holds the power of the ruler of the Twili. Midna is already known to withstand the world of light, as well. Third, Kain has very little resistance shown, much less to something like that curse, which will remove his powers.

Excuse me? since when is bouncing along lava from a Gorons who not supernatural within its power set?

Since Gorons have always been able to walk on lava.
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7:10

The area link is in, and the room he walks into next look like a combination of rocks. It looks like an old english castle (the only ones I have seen are from my country, ime sure french or other medieval establishments are the same).

Point being? The fact is that there is an area of the floor that is different from the rest in the spot where the pillar is. The only reason it would be there is if it is more able to take the weight than the surrounding floor.

My point is that the fused shadows dont do anything when their not on Midnas head, with her power controlling it. The helmet in his hands is just that, a helmet. That would be like Kain snapping Moebius' staff and me claiming that makes him immune to its powers.

There are three bosses and a mound of canon and evidence that disagrees with you here. It has already been proven that the Fused Shadows are dangerous to touch due to their power.

Resistance to transformation maybe, and whats this "seperation"? the body seems to disapear altogether, their just transformed into a twilight soul. Which according to you earlier is different to a "dead" soul apprently so dont contradict.

I still don't see your point, as the afterlife and twilight are very different things, and latching onto this won't really make a difference in how twilight works. One is dead, one is alive but helpless. Ghosts can apparently exist in or outside of twilight, while those affected by twilight are stuck.

Triforce of courage has never protected against soul, mind or blood powers. The mirror thing is ambigious, he either does not touch it or hes far away from it and more so, the mirror does not control your mind forcefully like a mind control, it corrupts so sure, maybe Link is incorruptable but his mind is fair game. The MS can break a curse, but LoK dont use curses....certainly not twilight based ones who transform you into a wolf and it would be useless, canonically it takes the MS a long time to reverse such a lowly curse anyway.

Triforce of Courage protected against twilight and repels Shadow Beasts, so yes it does. The mirror only needs to be looked into, as demonstrated by Blizzeta, and Link has looked right into it twice. There's nothing ambiguous about it. And as I told you,the Master Sword is much quicker when Link's actually holding it. That was from a distance.

Originally posted by The Scenario

48? not sure where you got that from, it was 30 overall last i looked but regardless, 50 is half of Raziels strength, he can budge two blocks with 50 each. Kains easily immune, he stands and takes it all and it would take well over 100 tonnes+sharp blade to pierce him because 100 tonnes did zero.

I can see its not, theres no red hue and why are you trying to give sorcerors and Vordaor the resistance Kain shows as well exactly? And No, I said the sorcerors warped the inside of the tower using their magic. Dark Eden affects everything beneath it, weather, living entities, wild life and I think plants and earth. neither does twilight and Kains taken a reaver to the chest, the wraith blade that actually takes souls so dont try and argue the twilight has anything on it beyond what Kains faced.

In this case, you tripped up because your trying to word it so that twilight is like dieing when its not, its a transformation. Twilight is the transformation of body into its spiritual/twilight forms, ime not even sure if its mentioned to affect souls directly or whether your making this assertion yourself based on appearances. The other, which is death looks similiar, only its actually the removal of the soul from the body directly. Which is kinda what LoK spells do.

Please use humans as an example, I dont know what a Zora is so it may have unpsecific traits humans do not to allow it some advantages. Not that it matters here but just for the future please do this.

We dont see Zant do anything in either scenes, you can either make the choice of ambigious because we dont see it happen in the light spirit scene therefore negating it or ignore it entirely. Also you soon changed your tune, once minute your saying it was instant, now your agreeing its at least 3 seconds? 🙄

He cant if hes casting twilight or teleporting. Also what do you mean he cant be found? LoK have the Elder God who resides and sees across entire worlds.

Thats the thing, he flips it, not lifts. As I said, he flips it, combined with his high durability and strength as long as hes not taking the weight on his shoulders or above himself his lightweight form should not be too much of a problem, its not like the Link scene so strop trying to make comparisons, the weights and the methods of moving the weights are diverse and compeltly wrong in the loZ scene. Modern tanks weigh in over 50 tonnes, they can move freely without damaging the area, 1000 tonnes on the other hand is vast difference, your making a joke of the affair by trying to make comparisons.

All this "zant will have teleported" make up your mind ,is he calling twilight ,running for his terrified little life and teleported to avoid arrows or is he making illusions that are arguably slower than the twilight? Soldiers can resist whats pretty much the same thing, vampires will have no problem.

Kain always kills for a reason, the majority of the time it is. Humanity who are a warlike and hateful race who in previous eras murdered countless vampires? just because they called them unholy? Kain does not even kill them or try to exterminate them proving hes not only more merciful desipte crueler fates being acted out on his kind but can also stay his hand. The fact he wants to rule the world makes no difference, if I wanted to wipe out excistence but the machine I made to do so cured all known malign diseases and cured the sick and wounded I would still be a hero. Kain killed Umah because she stole the Nexus stone, the object of what would allow him to bypass the Soul reavers power, and as he said he thought her a traitor.

That does not mean its based on the same power, only that they were the fathers of it.

yes there is, because he actually walks up to her, theres no evidence for you to assume he can do it at any range beyond that which he did it in either so dont try and argue this. Shes defencless because she flees backwards using no powers, she offers no defence, Kain and anyone else in Nosgoth will, and they will kill him before he lifts his arm. Thats not a counter to my previous statement.

You say "Gorons have always" only to show one video of Link in a Goron costume "rolling" along lava that may be shallow for all we know anyway.

lol so your argument is that, this section of the castle was made specially to deal with that block? and to sit that pillar there? ok I need some further evidence for this please, show me the area and the logic behind this? it sounds far fetched.

But thats the problem, theres nothing of the sort. I asked you to prove that the Fused shadows can do what you claim, and all youve shown me is mida using the power of the helmet to defeat Zant or Ganon. SHOW ME THE HELMET DOING IT BY ITSELF would you please 😉

It seems the twilight does not affect souls at all, it only looks like it does. If their souls then their also spiritual, if their spiritual then their the same as ghots, it seems death in the form of becoming a ghost and transformation into a twilight being is very similiar. The method is still completly different to a LoK spell, and Lok spells forefully rip out the soul of a living being.

Twilight=transformation into twilight being, shadow beasts? not sure that protection is even relevant. First the mirror just corrupts, LoK dont use corruption or at least, wont in this match. Second wheres this twice? all ive seen is Blizzeda being corrupted and we can only see links reflection, not if hes looking in the mirror (unlikely as his crazed friend would be the object of his gaze).

Prove it, all ive seen is gameplay of this "quickness" and Midna claims that keeping this object allows Link to do that, nothing to do with the MS. Sounds like a gameplay mechanic to me, any other claim is countered by the fact video evidence supports it taking a long time to reverse the curse. unless you can prove it takes ages to do it the first time, and is quicker if the curse happens again.

Jesus.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Jesus.

Jesus christ has left the building.

Originally posted by Burning thought
48? not sure where you got that from, it was 30 overall last i looked but regardless, 50 is half of Raziels strength, he can budge two blocks with 50 each. Kains easily immune, he stands and takes it all and it would take well over 100 tonnes+sharp blade to pierce him because 100 tonnes did zero.

Were you not paying attention? BloodRain gave me the material he used and it came out to 48. 48 would not be half of Raziel's strength, hough, and he can't lift anything larger than it.

I can see its not, theres no red hue and why are you trying to give sorcerors and Vordaor the resistance Kain shows as well exactly? And No, I said the sorcerors warped the inside of the tower using their magic. Dark Eden affects everything beneath it, weather, living entities, wild life and I think plants and earth. neither does twilight and Kains taken a reaver to the chest, the wraith blade that actually takes souls so dont try and argue the twilight has anything on it beyond what Kains faced.

It hasn't been shown to affect anything above a normal human peasant, and since it didn't even affect the guardians or Vorador, you can't say it could affect anything in Loz above a simple peasant. Also, the wraith blade does not take souls.
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2:25, over 20 seconds of contact and it fails to take even Moebius' soul. Kain has no resistance to twilight, then.

In this case, you tripped up because your trying to word it so that twilight is like dieing when its not, its a transformation. Twilight is the transformation of body into its spiritual/twilight forms, ime not even sure if its mentioned to affect souls directly or whether your making this assertion yourself based on appearances. The other, which is death looks similiar, only its actually the removal of the soul from the body directly. Which is kinda what LoK spells do.

I never said twilight was like death at any point. You're probably just misunderstanding things. Soul removal is actually reversable in the Zelda universe, seen to best effect in Spirit Tracks, whereas in LoK it seems to be permanent. In twilight, people are forced into spirit form and are thus helpless until they can be reunited with their bodies once twilight is driven off.

Please use humans as an example, I dont know what a Zora is so it may have unpsecific traits humans do not to allow it some advantages. Not that it matters here but just for the future please do this.

I thought Zoras would be more interesting. Human ghosts just point at things.

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6:22

Here's the effects of twilight again.
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3:30

We dont see Zant do anything in either scenes, you can either make the choice of ambigious because we dont see it happen in the light spirit scene therefore negating it or ignore it entirely. Also you soon changed your tune, once minute your saying it was instant, now your agreeing its at least 3 seconds? 🙄

We saw Zant move his hand before the twilight appeared appeared, and we've already seen that Zant can TK without moving. Thus it can be concluded that Zant moving his arm was not TK, since he doesn't need to move, and so it had to be the casting of twilight. The casting is very quick, as Zant just moves his arm, the effects just take a few seconds to fully manifest.

He cant if hes casting twilight or teleporting. Also what do you mean he cant be found? LoK have the Elder God who resides and sees across entire worlds.

By the time Elder God could have told anyone where he is, the twilight would already be down.

Thats the thing, he flips it, not lifts. As I said, he flips it, combined with his high durability and strength as long as hes not taking the weight on his shoulders or above himself his lightweight form should not be too much of a problem, its not like the Link scene so strop trying to make comparisons, the weights and the methods of moving the weights are diverse and compeltly wrong in the loZ scene. Modern tanks weigh in over 50 tonnes, they can move freely without damaging the area, 1000 tonnes on the other hand is vast difference, your making a joke of the affair by trying to make comparisons.

So Raziel doesn't even lift the blocks? And you say he isn't even taking the weight? That just throws everything off, since I was under the impression we were comparing strength based on what the characters could lift, which is how that seems to be done normally. Now that's all been called into question thanks to you.

All this "zant will have teleported" make up your mind ,is he calling twilight ,running for his terrified little life and teleported to avoid arrows or is he making illusions that are arguably slower than the twilight? Soldiers can resist whats pretty much the same thing, vampires will have no problem.

It'd be trivially easy to teleport to somewhere out of range of LoK and then call down twilight. And then once it's down he'll have free reign to reality warp the helpless LoK forces. No soldier has resisted twilight, you're just latching onto unimportant details.

Kain always kills for a reason, the majority of the time it is. Humanity who are a warlike and hateful race who in previous eras murdered countless vampires? just because they called them unholy? Kain does not even kill them or try to exterminate them proving hes not only more merciful desipte crueler fates being acted out on his kind but can also stay his hand. The fact he wants to rule the world makes no difference, if I wanted to wipe out excistence but the machine I made to do so cured all known malign diseases and cured the sick and wounded I would still be a hero. Kain killed Umah because she stole the Nexus stone, the object of what would allow him to bypass the Soul reavers power, and as he said he thought her a traitor.

Good deeds don't erase evil ones, and fighting against evil does not automatically make one good. I've already said everyone in LoK is evil to some degree. Most of your arguments could apply to Ganondorf, too. He was just trying to save his people from the harsh desert, and at one point actually tried to help recover Hyrule from underwater after the goddesses flooded the world and killed everyone. Kain actually enjoys killing people, based on his quotes. He killed Umah because she took a stone, and never actually betrayed him. He should have known that since he found her nearly killed by Sarafan (what happened to vampire regeneration, I wonder?)

That does not mean its based on the same power, only that they were the fathers of it.

Which means they are different.

yes there is, because he actually walks up to her, theres no evidence for you to assume he can do it at any range beyond that which he did it in either so dont try and argue this. Shes defencless because she flees backwards using no powers, she offers no defence, Kain and anyone else in Nosgoth will, and they will kill him before he lifts his arm. Thats not a counter to my previous statement.

And there's no evidence he has to be close, either. Regardless, that was in no way a meter. Nothing stops Zant from teleporting behind anyone and cursing them. Your previous statement was a ridiculous and innaccurate hyperbole, so there wasn't much of way to counter it. How about you prove that Kain has more resistance than Zant does power?

You say "Gorons have always" only to show one video of Link in a Goron costume "rolling" along lava that may be shallow for all we know anyway.

Yes. Did you not understand it?

lol so your argument is that, this section of the castle was made specially to deal with that block? and to sit that pillar there? ok I need some further evidence for this please, show me the area and the logic behind this? it sounds far fetched.

It's a reasonable concllusion based on the evidence. That area is the only place were that floor is, and there is a pillar on top of it. You think it'd be coincidence that the only time is actual floor near a pillar, and there's a different type of floor supporting it, that it's a coincidence?

But thats the problem, theres nothing of the sort. I asked you to prove that the Fused shadows can do what you claim, and all youve shown me is mida using the power of the helmet to defeat Zant or Ganon. SHOW ME THE HELMET DOING IT BY ITSELF would you please 😉

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It seems the twilight does not affect souls at all, it only looks like it does. If their souls then their also spiritual, if their spiritual then their the same as ghots, it seems death in the form of becoming a ghost and transformation into a twilight being is very similiar. The method is still completly different to a LoK spell, and Lok spells forefully rip out the soul of a living being.

You're assuming that souls and ghosts are the same thing. Not necessarily. The evidence already shows a marked difference. Twilight still separates the soul from the body, and at least some of the time turns thing into Shadow Beasts.

Twilight=transformation into twilight being, shadow beasts? not sure that protection is even relevant. First the mirror just corrupts, LoK dont use corruption or at least, wont in this match. Second wheres this twice? all ive seen is Blizzeda being corrupted and we can only see links reflection, not if hes looking in the mirror (unlikely as his crazed friend would be the object of his gaze).

The Mirror seems to have a mental effect, as well as a transformative one, so Link is protected from those. He looked in twice, the first when Yeta looked in, and the second when he took it from her. Link's got some magical protection.

Prove it, all ive seen is gameplay of this "quickness" and Midna claims that keeping this object allows Link to do that, nothing to do with the MS. Sounds like a gameplay mechanic to me, any other claim is countered by the fact video evidence supports it taking a long time to reverse the curse. unless you can prove it takes ages to do it the first time, and is quicker if the curse happens again.

First off, all I've seen of the Dimensional Teleport is gameplay quickness, so you can stop with the double standard. Second, Midna says the crystal can change Link into a wolf. How do you think he turns back? It's the combination of the two that let's Link shift at will.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Oh but I was paying attension my sexy sapling, here!:

Originally posted by BloodRain
I see. So its 28 tons of Dagoro with 2 tons of iron, 30 ton hurl. -phew- finally got his strength down.

and 48 tonnes is half, e.g. one block that Raziel can move.

Nothing was said about peasants and since it can affect everything beneath it including the earth and weather itself, its far beyond twilight. It creates, absorbs and "reacreates" like, far more than just transforming peasants into "twilight" forms of themselves.

😆 the wraith blade does not take souls? thats a major plot piece for it, the wraith blade is the spirit of the soulreaver that allows it to take souls so dont give me that rubbish just because of your misunderstanding the purified blade (surprise surprise it purifies) as the original spirit in the soul reaver. When Kain gets slashed by the original wraith blade earlier, it is not purified by the balance guardians.

Permanent? not quite, not for vampires at least. Theres no "re-united", your trying to make comparisons with soul ripping powers when there are none. The only common attribute is that a "soul" is perhaps involved but in this case, its transformation, the body is transformed, so its not really losing its soul at all. Also can you show me where it directly states it transforms them into souls? I dont recall.

To me, they look almost identical, apart from the fact the twilight ghost did not look human until Link got closer, and before was a floating orb of energy. What do you claim is the difference exactly?

Show me again witth the timings please, I dont recall him moving his arm, also thats quite the assumption that he was casting twilight. All i recall from memory is that he was sending the defeated light spirit down to the ground.

3 seconds? nah, seconds to teleport/stop Zant or just TK his head into the ground, a second or so for EG to speak. ANd your acting like Zant is invisible or stealthed. The guy is pretty obvious.

no, Raziel is not taking weight on his body, only on his arms and perhaps some lower back but the weights not on top of him becaues obviously being only human weight at most that would be unrealistic (not as much as LoZ's 1k ton pillar apprently). He flips the block with ease instead, so technically he is vastly stronger than 50 tonnes per block, perhaps more so than 100 tonnes.

The same could be said for every good character in Hyrule who apprently kills evil, your contradicting your own fiction because Link who murders all these shadow creatures and what not is still considered "good". Youve said it, but not proven it. Taking the stone was betraying him. She stole it from him.

not really, same source if the intelopers are the fathers.

As soon as the weakest kain stands unharmed in the energy beneath Dark eden, he has more magical resistance than all of Hyrule, I dont think even the full triforce when wished upon did much better than transform the golden realm into the dark realm. And your talking rubbsih again, now Zants teleporting and doing it? hes done it on a defenceless woman who did nothing, its not the same as doing it against a vampire whos more powerful than said woman.

I understood what I saw, Link rolling across the surface of lava, thats not proof of anything useful to Gorons..

I think its completly irrelevant, illogical and farfetched, your claiming Ganon had a special floor in his castle made for a pillar that looks to him like just an aesthetics (Ganon does not use it to toss around) and somehow had it hauled to that spot? or do you claim the castle was built all around that pillar?

As I thought, it took you long enough to show it. the piecie of the completed helmet did the corruption. Not the full helmet.

Theres little if any difference between them in both universes, one may have a slightly greener hue in colour, thats it. In LoK ghosts seem to have more understanding of their world than souls which just seem to scream/howl but when it comes to powers, their sitll just spirits. "seperates soul" is a lie, it transforms, its unique to a soul rip in most ways, it can be resisted by normal men as shown with what youve been calling the Dark fog, which is still based on similiar means.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The Mirror seems to have a mental effect, as well as a transformative one, so Link is protected from those. He looked in twice, the first when Yeta looked in, and the second when he took it from her. Link's got some magical protection.

First off, all I've seen of the Dimensional Teleport is gameplay quickness, so you can stop with the double standard. Second, Midna says the crystal can change Link into a wolf. How do you think he turns back? It's the combination of the two that let's Link shift at will.

Not really, it seems to have a corrupting effect, its not a mind control/rape like Kains going to do, along with many other vampires to the Lok cast. You just repeated without countering, as I said, Links not looking at it at all with Blizzeda, hes looking at Blizzeda. Clearly not, because hes not been hit from anything magical beyond perhaps slow moving energy orbs. I admit, he is free of corruption perhaps.

Its not a double standard because the dimentional teleport is not a gameplay mechanic countered by earlier fiction, the MS taking ages to reverse a curse only for link to swap between forms in gameplay is. Thats not whats said in the game, I dont know why but all midna says is keeping the thingy Zant implanted allows him to swap, the only logical conclusion is that the curse has been lifted from the object but the power has not.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Oh but I was paying attension my sexy sapling, here!:

and 48 tonnes is half, e.g. one block that Raziel can move.

Raziel can't lift that though, apparently, so it isn't really his strength.

Nothing was said about peasants and since it can affect everything beneath it including the earth and weather itself, its far beyond twilight. It creates, absorbs and "reacreates" like, far more than just transforming peasants into "twilight" forms of themselves.

Prove it.

😆 the wraith blade does not take souls? thats a major plot piece for it, the wraith blade is the spirit of the soulreaver that allows it to take souls so dont give me that rubbish just because of your misunderstanding the purified blade (surprise surprise it purifies) as the original spirit in the soul reaver. When Kain gets slashed by the original wraith blade earlier, it is not purified by the balance guardians.

Prove that, please. That's the only time the Wraith Blade has hit anything, and it utterly fails to do its job. So you're basically saying that the Soul Reaver can no longer take souls because it's been purified by the wraith blade. Gotcha 👆

Permanent? not quite, not for vampires at least. Theres no "re-united", your trying to make comparisons with soul ripping powers when there are none. The only common attribute is that a "soul" is perhaps involved but in this case, its transformation, the body is transformed, so its not really losing its soul at all. Also can you show me where it directly states it transforms them into souls? I dont recall.

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To me, they look almost identical, apart from the fact the twilight ghost did not look human until Link got closer, and before was a floating orb of energy. What do you claim is the difference exactly?

Ghosts do nothing, no real effect on anything, but can exist in twilight or the light world. Twilight victims are still vulnerable to attack by twilight creatures but are otherwise helpless, and are occasionally turned into shadow beasts, likely upon death. They can interact with the light world, but can't see or affect anything that works in twilight. No one in twilight can actually see Link or Midna, for example, though they can see some Shadow Beasts but not others.

Show me again witth the timings please, I dont recall him moving his arm, also thats quite the assumption that he was casting twilight. All i recall from memory is that he was sending the defeated light spirit down to the ground.

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0:28, TK, no movement.
0:35, arm moves, light spirit drops, twilight forms.
0:55, TK, no movement.
1:01, TK, no movement.
1:37, TK, no movement.
1:50, TK, no movement.

And so on. Zant can use TK withoyt moving, and does so repeatedly in the same scene. Why would he move his arm? It'd be an inconsistency if Zant sudden;t had to move to TK, then seconds later not need to. Occum's razor dictates that since twilight formed when Zant moved his arm, and that didn't happen at any other time, especially during TK, it can be concluded that the arm movement was not TK, and was what caused the twilight.

3 seconds? nah, seconds to teleport/stop Zant or just TK his head into the ground, a second or so for EG to speak. ANd your acting like Zant is invisible or stealthed. The guy is pretty obvious.

Less than a second for Zant to teleport, plus three seconds for twilight to take effect. Assuming a second for Elder God to talk, no one on LoK has a fast enough teleport to stop Zant in the two seconds they'll have left. Except maybe the dimsensional teleport, but its range is too short. And it's not like Zant or Ganondorf can't put up a barrier.
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4:09

no, Raziel is not taking weight on his body, only on his arms and perhaps some lower back but the weights not on top of him becaues obviously being only human weight at most that would be unrealistic (not as much as LoZ's 1k ton pillar apprently). He flips the block with ease instead, so technically he is vastly stronger than 50 tonnes per block, perhaps more so than 100 tonnes.

It'd be pretty impossible to lift anything without taking the weight. Raziel is just a possessed human corpse, and no normal human could take that, especially not a corpse. It's ridiculously unrealistic, and you just have another double standard. Of course if he's just flipping it, then he obviously isn't strong enough for a continuous lift like Link does.

The same could be said for every good character in Hyrule who apprently kills evil, your contradicting your own fiction because Link who murders all these shadow creatures and what not is still considered "good". Youve said it, but not proven it. Taking the stone was betraying him. She stole it from him.

No, you misunderstand. Link kills evil, yes, but that's not all he does. He often goes out of his way to help or save people, and doesn't perform any evil actions. I said that good deeds don't override evil ones, and Link just doesn't have any evil deeds. You've seen Midna, a character mostly considered good, still be affected by the Master Sword. Kain enjoys killing, often kills helpless prisoners in cold blood, does not hesitate to kill anything in his way. Kain is evil enough to be affected if even Midna is considered evil enough to count.

not really, same source if the intelopers are the fathers.

Which was before they were sent to the twilight realm, which changed it.

As soon as the weakest kain stands unharmed in the energy beneath Dark eden, he has more magical resistance than all of Hyrule, I dont think even the full triforce when wished upon did much better than transform the golden realm into the dark realm. And your talking rubbsih again, now Zants teleporting and doing it? hes done it on a defenceless woman who did nothing, its not the same as doing it against a vampire whos more powerful than said woman.

Dark Eden affected peasants. Twilight and the Dark World both affected monsters, both on a much larger scale than Dark Eden, and both much faster than Dark Eden. Dark Eden failed to affect any of the pillar guardians, who are already shown to be vulnerable to magic attack by Nupraptor and Mortanius, and even Vorador resisted it, and he was killed by humans. Dark Eden is truly pathetic if it's the best you have, especially since there are statements that it only affects the living and pure, and Kain is neither. What was it you said? You can't be corrupted if you already have been?
Zant affecting Midna already puts him above Kain. Midna's TK is superior to Kain's, as is her teleportation, intangibility and shapeshifting. She even had a Fused Shadow with her in that scene, so she was by no means defenseless. Once Kain is in the twilight and can't see Zant, that'll just make it easier.

I understood what I saw, Link rolling across the surface of lava, thats not proof of anything useful to Gorons..

Except that they can roll across lava, yes.

I think its completly irrelevant, illogical and farfetched, your claiming Ganon had a special floor in his castle made for a pillar that looks to him like just an aesthetics (Ganon does not use it to toss around) and somehow had it hauled to that spot? or do you claim the castle was built all around that pillar?

Did you not see that the pillar was placed right in front of a passageway? Like it was placed there to protect the door, perhaps? You're just being unreasonable, since there is no reason for a unique floor to be right where a giant pillar is protecting a door. Why do you think it's there?

As I thought, it took you long enough to show it. the piecie of the completed helmet did the corruption. Not the full helmet.

The Helmet is a Fused Shadow. Fused Shadows are dangerous for light worlders to touch. Therefore, the helmet is dangerous for light worlders to touch. Do you not understand this? Ganondorf only touched a peice, as well, so I don't know where you're going with this full helmet business.

Theres little if any difference between them in both universes, one may have a slightly greener hue in colour, thats it. In LoK ghosts seem to have more understanding of their world than souls which just seem to scream/howl but when it comes to powers, their sitll just spirits. "seperates soul" is a lie, it transforms, its unique to a soul rip in most ways, it can be resisted by normal men as shown with what youve been calling the Dark fog, which is still based on similiar means.

You are still failing to understand that twilight > dark fog. Do you honestly think that soldiers are resisting twilight because they resist Dark Fog, despite the fact that they are shown to be vulneranle to twilight? You're latching onto nothing. And no matter how hard you may try, you cannot change the fact that twilight separates bodies from souls.

Not really, it seems to have a corrupting effect, its not a mind control/rape like Kains going to do, along with many other vampires to the Lok cast. You just repeated without countering, as I said, Links not looking at it at all with Blizzeda, hes looking at Blizzeda. Clearly not, because hes not been hit from anything magical beyond perhaps slow moving energy orbs. I admit, he is free of corruption perhaps.

What do you consider corruption? Yeta is obviously under some mental influence, as well as a transformation. Seen here:
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0:45, you can cleary see Link's reflection looking in the mirror. Kain's mind control won't affect him. And his twilight resistance covers the soul portion,

Its not a double standard because the dimentional teleport is not a gameplay mechanic countered by earlier fiction, the MS taking ages to reverse a curse only for link to swap between forms in gameplay is. Thats not whats said in the game, I dont know why but all midna says is keeping the thingy Zant implanted allows him to swap, the only logical conclusion is that the curse has been lifted from the object but the power has not.

It is a double standard, because you're trying to use the dimensional teleport as Kain's standard speed when he takes forever in cutscenes, so why can't I do the same? And again you misunderstand.
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1:30, read it. "But on the other hand...if we kept it you'd be able to transform into a beast anytime you wanted..."

At no point does Midna say it allows Link to swap. She says it can turn him into a beast, nothing else. Since the Master Sword is the only thing besides the Life Force of the Gods shows to turn Link back to a human, and Link now has it, it's what let's Link turn back, and since it then becomes a gameplay ability, he can do it faster.

Originally posted by The Scenario

wtf....Whos strength is it then? 🙄

Okie:

Seeing a mutated human:

Kain VO
The poor wretch was warped beyond recognition. To think that it was once human.

Such strange creatures that had been spawned by this dark magic; things half insect and half mammal - human torsos grafted onto abominations of the flesh. Sick as it was, I could not help but admire its creator’s ingenuity.

If it could be said that a land descended into madness, ‘twould be an accurate account of Dark Eden. A garden of horrors, seeded with sick perversion of nature’s design.
I knew that this Dark Eden I had trespassed upon would continue to grow, until all of Nosgoth was consumed

Magic seethed and shifted. I watched the dome of energy as it expanded, absorbing and recreating, consuming life and leaving behind only a twisted parody.

"sigh" I think this debate has once again become a squabble if your going to ask me to prove the wraith blade takes souls, what am I going to have to prove next, that Kain and vampires in Lok drink blood? playing silly bugger is not going to work. When did I say that the soul reaver was purified by the wraith blade? 😕

So it says "spirits" not "souls", which you seem to be trying to claim are unique to eachother. And it says they "became" souls, not that they had their souls raped like Lok will do to the loZ universe.

Thats not using Occam's Razor, because thats not the simplest argument its just a guess. The simplest would be my claim, that the twilight simply returned once the being oppressing it (the light spirit) was removed. Also using TK in a blast form from his body, and then using TK on an actual object to directly move it may require him to use his arms to direct the movement, another explanation could be the light spirit being stronger/heavier than Midna or Link may require more effort.

Add a second or two for reaction times for Zant as hes featless and has no more than human statistics, vampires and Kains feats allow him to move quicker than any human in reaction. Technically, all Kain would have to do is cast "time reaver" or "incapaciate" to completly freeze Zant in time anyway. Vorador, Kain, Janos Audren. any of them could get to Zant before he can do anything, one slash or Tk and hes gone.

All Raziels doing is using his hundred tonnes of strength to flip something on his fingers, durability/strength would allow it because his light body is not taking it. Unlike the unrealistic scenes of LoZ where a vast number of menstioned factors would be physically impossible. He is stronger, flipping something with the tips of his claws is quite impressive, for example a man can pull along a truck in the worlds strongest man but could he flip it with his finger tips? no lol...

All ive seen Midna affected by is light spirits, not sure if shes evil. Kains not done anything evil, as a vampire he drinks the blood of humans like humans would eat an animal. Kains saved the world several times and despite it being in his intensions to rule it, hes still saving it.

Prove their power was "changed".

I dont recall peasants being mentioned, simply people, earth, ground and beast, it "created and recreated life" and the sorcerors sending this magic out were able to bend even space to their whims as stated about the inside of their tower. Their sorcery is vastly beyond anything LoZ, its like the strongest powers they have the completed triforce. Twilight and the dark world do nothing but transform, and on a small scale, e.g. defenceless creature to a spirit, and nothing else. Dark Eden which was expanding to encumpass the world formed, re-created and warped life beneath it ANd affected even the weather. Check your sources and state them when you bring up "magical vulnerability" not that the sorcerors and vorador were inside the energy.

None of those powers you mentioned apart from perhaps TK strength are true. Kains vastly beyond any in LoZ in resistance, strength and endurance as well as magical variety and exotic powers.

Thats funny, kain cant see Zant despite having the purified sight to see a multi dimentional elder God.

I am only seeing link, and rolling across lava is irrelevant. i am not discussing protection against heat.

I dont think its relevant at all, nor is its placement. Its just a puzzle item with unrealistic physics.

The helmet that Ganon crushes is the completed item that empowers midna, other than that youve not proven it can do anything by itself. Only that seperate piecies "corrupted" various entities.

Theres no evidence of this at all, the "fog" which just seems to act similiar to twilight and because its Zants power set, its likely just a use of twilight is resisted. Simple fact, showing me some soldiers who were not successful in resistance does not counter the previous showings. Your lieing, theres no "seperation" of anything. Its like a mass teleport almost, transporting them into the twilight where in they become spiritual. Nothing like having your soul devoured, nor is it resistance in any form.

Originally posted by The Scenario
What do you consider corruption? Yeta is obviously under some mental influence, as well as a transformation. Seen here:
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0:45, you can cleary see Link's reflection looking in the mirror. Kain's mind control won't affect him. And his twilight resistance covers the soul portion,

It is a double standard, because you're trying to use the dimensional teleport as Kain's standard speed when he takes forever in cutscenes, so why can't I do the same? And again you misunderstand.
YouTube video
1:30, read it. "But on the other hand...if we kept it you'd be able to transform into a beast anytime you wanted..."

At no point does Midna say it allows Link to swap. She says it can turn him into a beast, nothing else. Since the Master Sword is the only thing besides the Life Force of the Gods shows to turn Link back to a human, and Link now has it, it's what let's Link turn back, and since it then becomes a gameplay ability, he can do it faster.

Corruption, e.g. the essence and character that you are is twisted, in this case to evil. Its not mind raping or mind control of any kind, the mirror itself does not have a "willpower" afaik in the first place so its not mind powers.

I can clearly see Links reflection, not that hes looking in the mirror. The idea is daft considering Blizzeda covers most of it and Blizzeda would be the object of attension.

Thats not even a counter.....if he takes time in cutscenes its because theres few cutscenes showing him moving at speed, its usually dialogue. And you cant use a gameplay mechanic for canon when a cutscene shows us the MS taking ages to reverse its curse.

No point does it say "zomg, now the MS allows you to instantly reverse transformation and protects you against them!!!", it doesnt even mension the MS at all.

You have yet to give solid evidence to convince me that any of these LoZ characters can resist any of Lok powers other than energy bolts and slow moving powers. The mirror is not comparable to mental rape/control, twilight is not comparable to having your soul literally devoured and transformation resistance is limited, even with link and all his protection he gets turned into a wolf which takes ages to reverse by his strongest sword. Hes doomed if he gets grafted with midna by the Dark Eden twist of reality 😆 Linkna....

Also not much stopping Lok Tkers from just pulling the MS and required items from LoZ characters and using them themselves (maybe not hte Ms but other items) as LoZ seem to rely on items a lot, especially Link and all his costumes and objects, fused shadows etc.