Originally posted by Burning thought
wtf....Whos strength is it then? 🙄
Are you serious? The block Raziel did not lift was weighted at 48 tons. Dangoro had nothing to do with it.
Okie:
Who is the creator? Why are they said to be "spawned" and not transformed? If they are "grafted on," what is doing it? At what point does this do anything more than twilight? Since it only affects life, why is Kain not being affected impressive?
"sigh" I think this debate has once again become a squabble if your going to ask me to prove the wraith blade takes souls, what am I going to have to prove next, that Kain and vampires in Lok drink blood? playing silly bugger is not going to work. When did I say that the soul reaver was purified by the wraith blade? 😕
If the purified wraith blade can't take souls (according to you) and the blood reaver can't take souls (also shown in the vid), why would a combination of them be able to take souls? You said it every time you brought up the purified soul reaver, as well as that being the blade's name.
So it says "spirits" not "souls", which you seem to be trying to claim are unique to eachother. And it says they "became" souls, not that they had their souls raped like Lok will do to the loZ universe.
I never said anything of the sort. I in fact said that ghosts and twilight victims were different, despite you apparently wanting them to be the same. Their souls still become vulnerable, and so it would mean Link and the others have resistance to soul related effects.
Thats not using Occam's Razor, because thats not the simplest argument its just a guess. The simplest would be my claim, that the twilight simply returned once the being oppressing it (the light spirit) was removed. Also using TK in a blast form from his body, and then using TK on an actual object to directly move it may require him to use his arms to direct the movement, another explanation could be the light spirit being stronger/heavier than Midna or Link may require more effort.
Don't start that again unless you want to admit that twilight is permanent and LoK can't remove it. Once the Light Spirits are restored and light returns, the twilight is dispersed. The rest of that paragraph is proven wrong by the video itself. Zant cast the twilight there.
Add a second or two for reaction times for Zant as hes featless and has no more than human statistics, vampires and Kains feats allow him to move quicker than any human in reaction. Technically, all Kain would have to do is cast "time reaver" or "incapaciate" to completly freeze Zant in time anyway. Vorador, Kain, Janos Audren. any of them could get to Zant before he can do anything, one slash or Tk and hes gone.
Why? It's not like any of them could get to Zant before twilight was already down and by then he'd be invisible. Since, you know, he teleports faster than they do, and they wouldn't know where he is until they talked to Elder God. Actually, you haven't told me yet how EG knows where Zant is either. So Zant just hides while Ganondorf puts up a barrier they can't get through and Zant twilights everything. Got any feats for the time stuff?
All Raziels doing is using his hundred tonnes of strength to flip something on his fingers, durability/strength would allow it because his light body is not taking it. Unlike the unrealistic scenes of LoZ where a vast number of menstioned factors would be physically impossible. He is stronger, flipping something with the tips of his claws is quite impressive, for example a man can pull along a truck in the worlds strongest man but could he flip it with his finger tips? no lol...
Do you understand physics at all? For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, yes? By simply moving that block, Raziel is putting that weight on his arms, and his shoulders hopefully prevent him from ripping his arms off, further supported by his back and legs. It's physically impossible for Raziel to move the block without taking the weight, and a human corpse just can't take that weight. And since he apparently doesn't even lift it, that wouldn't even be his strength, since he can apparent only do it for a second before he has to stop.
All ive seen Midna affected by is light spirits, not sure if shes evil. Kains not done anything evil, as a vampire he drinks the blood of humans like humans would eat an animal. Kains saved the world several times and despite it being in his intensions to rule it, hes still saving it.
I've shown you the Master sword video more times than I can count already, Midna is affected by it. Light Spirits, too. The most eil thing Midna is guilty of is being selfish, so let be put it this way: If Midna is evil enough, so is Kain. And again, I don't care how many times someone has saved the world. It doesn't make up for all the evil he's also done.
Prove their power was "changed".
I dont recall peasants being mentioned, simply people, earth, ground and beast, it "created and recreated life" and the sorcerors sending this magic out were able to bend even space to their whims as stated about the inside of their tower. Their sorcery is vastly beyond anything LoZ, its like the strongest powers they have the completed triforce. Twilight and the dark world do nothing but transform, and on a small scale, e.g. defenceless creature to a spirit, and nothing else. Dark Eden which was expanding to encumpass the world formed, re-created and warped life beneath it ANd affected even the weather. Check your sources and state them when you bring up "magical vulnerability" not that the sorcerors and vorador were inside the energy.
That's not in any way beyond the Triforce, but that's irrelevant right now. Can you prove that the guardians weren't in it? Dark Eden was expanding slowly, while twilight hit everything it needed to near instantly. How long does Dark Eden even take to whatever it does? Twilight also turns people into monsters, and turns animals into monsters, and turns monsters into stronger monsters. Can Dark Eden do that? And, of course, renders some monsters invisible.
None of those powers you mentioned apart from perhaps TK strength are true. Kains vastly beyond any in LoZ in resistance, strength and endurance as well as magical variety and exotic powers.
Not even close, really. Midna still beats him on the TK front, her intangibility is superior to his mist, her shapeshifting and disquise is perhaps equal, and she can just hide in his shadow. Kain's magical resistance is really nothing to write home about, either, since Dark Eden doesn't do much to things that aren't living and pure.
Thats funny, kain cant see Zant despite having the purified sight to see a multi dimentional elder God.
Yeah, pretty much. Not as long as both are in twilight.
I am only seeing link, and rolling across lava is irrelevant. i am not discussing protection against heat.
BT- "It's not a power for Gorons to float/bounce in lava."
S- *video of Goron Link not sinking in lava*
BT- "That's irrelevant."
This entire debate in a nutshell.
I dont think its relevant at all, nor is its placement. Its just a puzzle item with unrealistic physics.
You're right about irrelevancce to Twilight Princess, but that doesn't invalidate it as a feat for Ocarina of Time.
The helmet that Ganon crushes is the completed item that empowers midna, other than that youve not proven it can do anything by itself. Only that seperate piecies "corrupted" various entities.
Not really, since it isn't the completed item. Just the part Midna normally wears, which is still a Fused Shadow.
Theres no evidence of this at all, the "fog" which just seems to act similiar to twilight and because its Zants power set, its likely just a use of twilight is resisted. Simple fact, showing me some soldiers who were not successful in resistance does not counter the previous showings. Your lieing, theres no "seperation" of anything. Its like a mass teleport almost, transporting them into the twilight where in they become spiritual. Nothing like having your soul devoured, nor is it resistance in any form.
Yeah, Dark Fog might be resisted as long as you aren't actually in it. Twilight is different, and your latching won't change that. Two different powers, one just happens to be hundreds of times better. You once again fail to remember all the other things twilight also affects, not just humans. I don't lie, people in twilight are reduced to souls, thus being removed. Of course it isn't resistance, it's resisting the twilight that shows soul resistance.
Corruption, e.g. the essence and character that you are is twisted, in this case to evil. Its not mind raping or mind control of any kind, the mirror itself does not have a "willpower" afaik in the first place so its not mind powers.
Why not? I would consider twisting someone's mind or essence (soul?) a form of control, influence, or rape. The mirror does compel Yeta to protect it, so there's an will there, just like the One Ring. And since Link can resist said twisting I don't see how Kain's featless spells will work.
I can clearly see Links reflection, not that hes looking in the mirror. The idea is daft considering Blizzeda covers most of it and Blizzeda would be the object of attension.
What is the item Link has been looking for the entire time? What has he finally found after a truly ridiculous dungeon? That's right, it's the Mirror!
Thats not even a counter.....if he takes time in cutscenes its because theres few cutscenes showing him moving at speed, its usually dialogue. And you cant use a gameplay mechanic for canon when a cutscene shows us the MS taking ages to reverse its curse.
Kain takes time teleporting in cutscenes, too, so I don't know how you can't see the double standard here. It's not a gameplay mechanic for Link to transform, it's a canon gameplay ability, and one that is actually supported by the story, unlike the dimensional teleport. Kain's canon cutscene teleports take forever.
No point does it say "zomg, now the MS allows you to instantly reverse transformation and protects you against them!!!", it doesnt even mension the MS at all.
No point does it say "zomg, now the Dimensional Fragment allows you to instantly teleport all over the place and react to it!!!", it doesn't even mention the Dimensional Fragment at all.
You have yet to give solid evidence to convince me that any of these LoZ characters can resist any of Lok powers other than energy bolts and slow moving powers. The mirror is not comparable to mental rape/control, twilight is not comparable to having your soul literally devoured and transformation resistance is limited, even with link and all his protection he gets turned into a wolf which takes ages to reverse by his strongest sword. Hes doomed if he gets grafted with midna by the Dark Eden twist of reality 😆 Linkna....
I have given you evidence, you just can't seem to stop trying to downplay or ignore it. Mirror works for mental and transformation powers, twilight works for soul powers and transformation as well. Master Sword can prevent him from being changed in the first place as it did in the Twilight Realm.
Also not much stopping Lok Tkers from just pulling the MS and required items from LoZ characters and using them themselves (maybe not hte Ms but other items) as LoZ seem to rely on items a lot, especially Link and all his costumes and objects, fused shadows etc.
No one on LoK has the resistance required to use the Fused Shadows, nor would they even know how. They can't touch the Master Sword or Link.
And I think I'll just take a break from this thread for a little while. I knew from the beggining that you'd never be convinced, yet I actually argued with you and Quanchi for upward of 80 pages, and nothing has changed at all. It was always hopeless, but despite the mounds of evidence and hours of videos I've given you, you've just ignored it or tried to find some way to disregard it. I don't even know why I responded to you for this long, or even why I responded right now, but right here I'm just going to tell you that I will not be responding to you for a while. There are responsibilities in my life that are, frankly, more important than you are, and for now I'll be attending to them rather than trying to force you to see something you just don't want to see. You can keep posting if you want, but I won't be responding.
To the rest of you guys, I'm not leaving; far from it, but I'm pretty sure this thread is killing me. I might return to it, might not, but for right now, it just isn't on the priority list. I'm glad I was able to do this, and I enjoyed what little fun could be gleaned from this monstrosity. As far as I'm concerned, though, this thread should just be locked and sent to hell like the abomination it is, and never be seen or spoken of again. Until then, though, I don't really feel good doing this anymore.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Treat Scenario's legit arguments like the legit points that they are. If you want to ignore legit points and insist their creator is nothing more than a silly bugger or a troll then I will gladly begin to thrash you again. Otherwise, cease, BT.
I do treat his "legit arguments" but not his BS, trolling or silly bugger ones. You like things to be fair right? I ignore your trolling and BS arguments so ill ignore everyones including people who debate unlike you.
You wouldnt know what a "trashing" is from unless its coming from your opponent.
Originally posted by The Scenario
The block he moved and flipped with ease is 48-50 tonnes, his strength allows him to move twice that.
What are these questions? I just showed you him talking about the Dark Eden magic....that was the subject of converse...and wheres this "only affects life" coming from? its affecting the weather for christs sake lol...
They never combine so I dont know what your talking about.
A Ghost is a "spirit" 😬 and how is transformation from flesh into spirit form soul resistance? first its not affecting the soul at all and second, its nothing alike to soul rip spells that rip out or devour your soul.
Who said anything about permanent? I only say that it returns if a light spirit is removed, technically the twilight realm and hyrule being merged would do that, so it makes sense unlike your guesses and claims 😆
If he teleports then hes not casting twilight, hes going to be a sitting duck for at least 4 seconds+ assuming his first decision on the battlefield is to attempt to call down the twilight realm. In the same time, Vorador/Kain could easily have ripped off his head, or launched a time bolt.
AOE time reaver:
6:33, only about a second to cast. Teleport next to Ganon or Zant so their in the area and he takes them both out. The whole action would take at most 3 seconds if that. Zant would be nearing completion of twilight call but it wont be enough. Ofc Kain could just ignore time powers.
1:53, spirit Death (mortanius can imprison souls in other forms, doubt Kain can do this as well)
incapacitate has no vid, just the function:
"Through this magic, I can stop my enemies in their tracks. Frozen in time, they can do nothing to hinder their own doom. Sometimes, I draw out their fate, for the added fear sweetens their blood."
Its not the same as pushing something, if I try and push a car, whether I succeed or not the cars weight does not push back, thats only in the case of lifting. And Raziels not a human, and technically not a corpse either....you seem to be claiming that if you saw a guy flip his truck over with the tips of his fingers, it would be unimpressive? 😆 , what Raziel does is like someone flipping a tank on the tips of their fingers. Since all Raziel is doing is using his strength and the weight does not fall on him at any point, hes far more realistic than balancing 1k tonnes on your palms.
Midna is a twili, her being good and evil is nothing to do with it, shes a twilight entity.
That video did not prove your point, spamming the same video over and over in the hopes that I will forget and just agree does not work.
Ofc it is, the triforce could do none of those things, all it did was transform, iirc it could not warp space or time like the circle either. They were at the top of the tower, and in the video we see of them the red hue that the Dark Eden shows is not present. Everywhere it "needed" to is irrelevant when all it does is transform people into spirits, thats it. How long does it take to expand? not sure, probably a long while but it was expanding while Kain was watching it so not too long ot be useful in this matchup.
Yeh, funny, your trying to spam "not living or pure" just because that was one of Kains reasons he thought it did not affect him. Ofc the fact it was affecting the weather which is not "living" tosses that back in your face, Kains got "beyond triforce" resistance to magic, considering its the highest force in their universe Midna has nothing. All shes got is superior TK, thats it, and even thats arguable because she cant control liquid like Kain can with his powers.
This entire debate is
BT- please show me the proof
Scenario- shows entirely irrelevant video and claims it as evidence for all the claims.
BT- Thats not evidence for this because of A, B, and C etc
Scenario- posts the exact same video and claims the same again ignoring the counter.
BT- "sigh", here we go again...
Originally posted by The Scenario
It being a puzzle item with unrealistic physics does.
Its piecies of the shadows combined, hence why they collected the picies from previous creatures.
Hypocritical really, your claiming I am "latching to it being the same" and your "latching" for it to be different, only I have the fact both change things into shadow beasts and that its all Zant has in his power set on my side. Humans and monsters are the same in resistance unless you can prove any of them have magic resistance, all ive seen is humans resisting the "fog" twilight manifestation.
People in twilight are reduced to "spirits"/"souls"/"ghosts" but thats nothing alike to resistance if you are not reduced, that just means your not affected by the transformation, its not like having your soul devoured.
I am sure you would, but its not mind control, nor is it resistance to thus as all it is, is corruption. Twisting someones character beyond typical confines, its not the same as actually grasping the mental power of that person and controlling them like a puppet. Because kains "featless" spells, or mind control are beyond Links resistance because Kains "spells" do not corrupt, they forcefully grasp Links little mind, or Ganons or Zants and Kain plays them like puppets.
So? if I have been looking for a mirror yet the large owlike thing in front of me that obscures most of the mirror is talking crazy ime not going to be staring into the mirror am I...no....
Not really, this "time" your talking about is not much longer than Zants. Its a gameplay mechanic for the transformation to be instant as the MS cutscene shows us.
I never said it did mension the dimensional teleport, we can see that quite clearly scripted and it has no cutscenes that contradict it.
No you have not, since when is showing me an amibgious "mirror" that seems to just corrupt people count for raping someones brain and controlling them? very different...the one ring corrupts but Sauron does not actually control them like puppets at least not until their wraiths. (my Lotr is a little rusty but iirc, thats how it works). The twilight does not rip out souls, it doesnt even touch the soul at all, they just happen to become souls when their bodies are transformed....
Then if thats the case they toss it into the bowls of the earth and one of the EG's tentacles bury the lot.
Yeh thats a cute little rant, i can turn that on its head and complain that despite the hours of videos and canon evidence i have shown you, your still trying to downplay powers and abilities, your still trying to claim your "evidence" despite it not even showing what you want it to is resistance to apprently all of Kains powers. I suggest in the future you put more effort into making an argument and if you cant, concede because trying to defend your "pride" or that of your LoZ buddies is daft and pointless.
I cant imagine a forum thread could ever be at the top of anyones priorities 🙄
Come on then Moo, you can try and troll and prattle on about something daft if ya like, I may reply to your posts.
I will if you keep prattling on with your undeserved sense of accomplishment.
I wonder though, do you really think you're fooling anyone? Every time Scenario comes up with something you don't have an answer for, you label it trolling or "fanon" bullshit.
Maybe you don't even realize you're doing it. In which case, I laugh at you because you can't even know how daft you really are.
Lul, you totally missed it. 👆
Silly bugger and trolling claims are not counters to arguments. The sooner you understand this, the better.
And okay, I'll take your advice and get back in to arguing with you.
Where's a good place to start...hmm...
I may just make a new thread. I bet I can provide an argument for the Evil Pigs to stomp LoK on their own. Provided LoK has Gold. Perhaps I'll even see what I can come up with for some random Pokemon to defeat Kain.
Edit: For now I'll say Ganon warps reality around Kain and adds water. Don't believe that has ever been "countered" by you before.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Lul, you totally missed it. 👆Silly bugger and trolling claims are not counters to arguments. The sooner you understand this, the better.
And okay, I'll take your advice and get back in to arguing with you.
Where's a good place to start...hmm...
I may just make a new thread. I bet I can provide an argument for the Evil Pigs to stomp LoK on their own. Provided LoK has Gold. Perhaps I'll even see what I can come up with for some random Pokemon to defeat Kain.
Edit: For now I'll say Ganon warps reality around Kain and adds water. Don't believe that has ever been "countered" by you before.
And silly bugger and trolling are not replacement for an argument. The sooner YOU understand this the better.
Youve tried the evil pigs, you lost. And youve tried Pokemon, their either ambigious in feats, powers or have no resistances or their the strongest ones in their universe and could wipe out LoZ, Lok and GoW at once which would be a spite thread.
Ganon cant even do that. Since when has he warped reality around someone and added water? that would have been kinda useful against Link.
I've never substituted trolling and "silly bugger"ing for an argument. You just claimed I did because you did not have a counter for what was said. Kind of like you've been doing for Scenario.
Actually no, The Last Evil Pig turned Kain to stone, because Kain could not harm him as a ball of light. Regigigas solo'd the LoKverse with the buffs I gave him.
Zant did it against Link. And since Link can breathe underwater, it didn't really help against him. However, against Kain I believe it would be particularly effective.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I've never substituted trolling and "silly bugger"ing for an argument. You just claimed I did because you did not have a counter for what was said. Kind of like you've been doing for Scenario.Actually no, The Last Evil Pig turned Kain to stone, because Kain could not harm him as a ball of light. Regigigas solo'd the LoKverse with the buffs I gave him.
Zant did it against Link. And since Link can breathe underwater, it didn't really help against him. However, against Kain I believe it would be particularly effective.
Thats a lie.
So is this, the last evil pig was apprently too slow to do anything. I dont recall conceding to Regigigas.
You think so? nothing stopped Link from killing Zant with his measly weapons, Zant/Ganon are notihng to Kain.
You know, calling me a liar is the same as claiming trolling and silly bugger. It doesn't counter anything.
Which mattered not, because he cannot be harmed as a ball of light. And you didn't.
Which is irrelevant to Kain's effectiveness against Zant and Ganon in the first place. As well as a pathetic attempt at baiting me. Notice how I countered it before I called you a troll?
Technically you spamming on and on about how you think ime not countering trolling is indeed trolling itself. Your making yourself look more daft by claiming that you were making an argument. If it was supposed to be an argument then its not a counter than to mine making you a hypocrite.
Its not irrelevant when they could both be dead before they can do anything of worth to him. And what baiting? calling Link measly? I am entitled to my opinion on him, and based on information shown and researched, its an educated opinion.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Technically you spamming on and on about how you think ime not countering trolling is indeed trolling itself. Your making yourself look more daft by claiming that you were making an argument. If it was supposed to be an argument then its not a counter than to mine making you a hypocrite.Its not irrelevant when they could both be dead before they can do anything of worth to him. And what baiting? calling Link measly? I am entitled to my opinion on him, and based on information shown and researched, its an educated opinion.
Except I'm actually making a point, which you're proving pretty much with every reply. This can go on all day.
Which will never, ever happen. Pretty much any ability Kain possesses that is of worth, Ganon has done it better.
Very true, and this means I am entitled to my opinion of you and Kain. So perhaps I'll just throw negative adjectives out in front every time I mention pathetic you and wimpy Kain.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Except I'm actually making a point, which you're proving pretty much with every reply. This can go on all day.Which will never, ever happen. Pretty much any ability Kain possesses that is of worth, Ganon has done it better.
Very true, and this means I am entitled to my opinion of you and Kain. So perhaps I'll just throw negative adjectives out in front every time I mention pathetic you and wimpy Kain.
The only point your proving is that you are indeed a troll and a hypocrite.
Erm, evidence of gtfo. Based on vids posted by Scenario Ganon is far less impressive than perhaps even Zant.
Only mine are educated, you dont know anything about Kain and even less about me, also for someone who claims me "pathetic" you make a funny job of flaming and trolling me at the same time while whining about being called a troll in the first place 😆 get some logic, common sense and learn how to debate then get back to me.
Originally posted by Burning thought
The only point your proving is that you are indeed a troll and a hypocrite.Erm, evidence of gtfo. Based on vids posted by Scenario Ganon is far less impressive than perhaps even Zant.
Only mine are educated, you dont know anything about Kain and even less about me, also for someone who claims me "pathetic" you make a funny job of flaming and trolling me at the same time while whining about being called a troll in the first place 😆 get some logic, common sense and learn how to debate then get back to me.
Thank you for again proving my point. 👆
Damn, how did you get your head that far in there? Impressive, sir. But you may want to wash up when you get it out of there, less you receive the nickname "shithead." Zant has the Triforce of Power, and if I recall, Ganon's essence housed within him. Which actually disproves an attempt you made a while ago at proving Zant can do things Ganon cannot.
I've argued with you many times in which you claim to have posted a lot of evidence for LoK. And yet, I am uneducated about the series. Interesting, could you have not posted as much evidence as you think?
Hey, you proved my point two times in one post. Neat. How come you can't do that for your points?
And that's one thing I've never understood. How are these threads debates? Debates are relatively tame compared to what we do in these and are meant to be civil. This is the internet equivalent of yelling at each other. So quit calling it debate, it sounds pompous.
ha! I think someone whos proven themselves stupid and idiotic time and time again deserves the nickname "shithead" or something thereabouts and its not me 🙂 infact I could name several.
lol, see you claim things are "disproven", youve never disproven anything.
Oh I post a ton of evidence, you just dont bother to look at it as if your baseless opinion>the game simply because you dont want LoZ to lose.
Its supposed to be a debate and what goes on between me and Scenario or me and Bloodrian in the past are close enough for KMC standards. This at the moment is not a debate, but its against you who are not a debator "shrug". Thats probably why you have no clue about what you are doing when you blunder into threads.
Originally posted by Burning thought
ha!
Yeah, I thought it was a funny joke too.
Originally posted by Burning thought
I think someone whos proven themselves stupid and idiotic time and time again deserves the nickname "shithead" or something thereabouts and its not me 🙂 infact I could name several.
I agree with the first part. But you would indeed be included among the group.
Originally posted by Burning thought
lol, see you claim things are "disproven", youve never disproven anything.
I learned to "debate" from the best. See, 'cause I actually read your posts.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Oh I post a ton of evidence, you just dont bother to look at it as if your baseless opinion>the game simply because you dont want LoZ to lose.
I've already learned this lesson as stated above. Can we move on to Toonforce claiming 203?
Originally posted by Burning thought
Its supposed to be a debate and what goes on between me and Scenario or me and Bloodrian in the past are close enough for KMC standards. This at the moment is not a debate, but its against you who are not a debator "shrug". Thats probably why you have no clue about what you are doing when you blunder into threads.
Doubtful. And I'll have you know that I am a master debat-- er, never mind.
No, but seriously. Not debate. Discussion, maybe. Arguments, definitely.