"Freedom Flotilla" Attacks

Started by SamZED15 pages

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Your post is one sided. You did not post all the people and children killed by Hamas. Also, I was not talking about the PLO, I was talking about Hamas. PLO did recognize Israel, and guess what? PLO is not in power anymore. That tells you a lot about the Palestinian people; they don't want peace. Hamas will NOT have peace with Israel. That leaves Israel with only one option. The situation is the fault of Hamas, not Israel.
That only tells me about how much Israel values democracy. THEY supported the democtatic elections and guess what they did when Hamas won? They chose to ignore the results because they didnt like it. I guess when Israel says freedom, it only means THEIR freedom. Because they violate freedom of palestinians every day for the last 60 years.
And I figured you were talking about PLO because you quoted a post that said "PLO!" when you responded.
And you're right, my post was onesided. I'Il do it right this time.
Number of palestinians Israel holds prisoners - over 7000
Number of israelis Palestinians hold - 1
Number of jews settlements on Palestinian territories - over 200
Number of palestinian settlements on Israeli territories - 0
Number of palestinian houses Israel demolished in order to further expend their territory - over 24 thousand and that's just since the 6-days war.
Number of israeli houses palsetinians demolished in order to expend their territories - 0
Number of injured israelis starting with year2000 - over 8000
Number of injured palestinians starting with year 2000 - about 40000
Here, this wasnt onesided, feel any better? I kid you not, if you dont believe me check the numbers yourself.
Also dont kid yourself. The very existance of Hamas is caused by Israeli's illegal (according to UN mind you) occupation, so If you want someone to blame, blame Israel and their so called "military operations" that have them leveling entire villages, schools, kindergardens with airstrikes while "searching for the terrorists". Hamas would need 200 more years to come close to the level of destruction Israel causes.
Also palsetinians do not have a choice. Its not much of a choice if you either have to:
Option A: Give up everything you ever had and live like some dogs behind a fence where Israeli troops shoot you and throw napalm at you whenever they feel like it.
or
Option B: Die.

Israel however does have a choice, and they chose terrorism. Everybody knows that but noone can do anything about it.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
So "barbaric" is an opinion word then?

The Arabs invented algebra and were at the forefront of medicine, math, science and astronomy while Europe was in the Dark Ages. And today they have the world's tallest building; the Burj in the UAE. I don't believe all of these accomplishments count for nothing just because they execute gays.

A nation of barbarians would not have come up with algebra.

No, why do you ask? She would say that about anyone she didn't like for whatever reason. And then I would tell her "No, they can't be nice if they're all those other things too".

Could be, but more to the point and using your example. The UAE isn't uncivilized, but if they slaughter gays for simply being gay, or don't allow women to vote, those are "barbaric" practices. Wouldn't you agree?

Was humour, not a serious question.

Originally posted by SamZED
And boarding a foreign ship in international waters is illegal no matter how you look at it and can be concidered as an act of war.

You can keep saying this until you are blue in the face but it is NOT true and you do yourself a disservice by making it out as something obvious when you are wrong. The Israeli enforcement of the blockade is legal. You can try and argue that the blockade itself is illegal, but that would only be an opinion that it should be so. Factually, the blockade is legitimate.

Check your facts. Posting errors like that undermines the credibility of any of your arguments

Originally posted by SamZED
Israel however does have a choice, and they chose terrorism. Everybody knows that but noone can do anything about it.

What should Israel do?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You can keep saying this until you are blue in the face [b]but it is NOT true and you do yourself a disservice by making it out as something obvious when you are wrong. The Israeli enforcement of the blockade is legal. You can try and argue that the blockade itself is illegal, but that would only be an opinion that it should be so. Factually, the blockade is legitimate.

Check your facts. Posting errors like that undermines the credibility of any of your arguments [/B]

I think people mistake the natural sense of fairness for actualy law.

Most people presume that boarding ship in international waters, or ships which are approaching a foriegn country for whatever reason, especially inforcing a blockade killing people, is an act of piracy.

Also the sanctions now imposed on Iran also allowe ships to be borded and searched which are heading for Iran. You´d think this was also a bit illegal seeing as each country in a truly free world should be able to import what it wants.

These laws are made by the powerful countries, its the bully boy system on a big stage if you are big you get to decide what happens.

If Egypt were to impose a blockade on Israel for example, it would be laughed of and Egypt would have its ships sunk, why? because it is a small fish compared to Israel and the countries which support it.

Partly true on the big-fish eat little-fish angle.

In regards to your example, if Israel declared Egypt's destruction and Egpyt had cause to believe that weapons which would be used against them were on humanitarian boats bound for Israel, no, it wouldn't be.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
I think people mistake the natural sense of fairness for actualy law.

Most people presume that boarding ship in international waters, or ships which are approaching a foriegn country for whatever reason, especially inforcing a blockade killing people, is an act of piracy.

Also the sanctions now imposed on Iran also allowe ships to be borded and searched which are heading for Iran. You´d think this was also a bit illegal seeing as each country in a truly free world should be able to import what it wants.

These laws are made by the powerful countries, its the bully boy system on a big stage if you are big you get to decide what happens.

If Egypt were to impose a blockade on Israel for example, it would be laughed of and Egypt would have its ships sunk, why? because it is a small fish compared to Israel and the countries which support it.

I think you hit it spot on. They are ignorant of international law and treaties. Unfortunately the international world is not fair, and is better described as gang mentality. They project the luxury of fairness that they enjoy in their everyday life onto a barbaric world that has never been fair.

"I would love to change the world, but I don't know what to do"

Egypt's navy isn't big enough to mount an effective blockade. This is relevant because one of the rules of blockade is that you must be actually capable of enforcing it universally.

The reason this is a rule is to stop country A saying country B is under blockade, not bother to generally enforce it and just use it as an excuse to nick the cargo of any ship it likes in the area. That really would be piracy.

Just so people know:

The rules say you must make it clear that the blockade is in effect. The rules say you must continuously and conspicuously maintain the blockade at all times at all points. The rules say what cannot be blockaded. The rules also say you must provide a clear list of what IS blockaded. The rules allow you to divert any ship trying to enter the blockade to a port for inspection. If they will not listen to this request, the rules say you can board any ship attempting to enter the blockaded area, IF you have established that that is their intent (international waters make no difference to this- only territorial waters). The rules say you are allowed to board the ship to stop and search it. You are allowed to detain anyone who resists (but NOT anyone who does not), and they can be treated as prisoners of war. You are not generally allowed to sink a ship running a blockade, only to board and stop it. (If one thing leads to another and a running ship IS sunk, it is the responsibility of the blockaders to rescue the survivors).

All of that Israel has done. This is why many countries are saying it is wrong and that Israel should stop it and try something else- but only a hysterical few have actually tried to call it illegal, and practically speaking as a recognised blockade it is legitimate.

This proves that everything Samzed has been saying all along is true.

National Prayer Network

FLOTILLA ATTACK MIRRORS USS LIBERTY
By Harmony Grant Daws
17 June 10
Thanks to the internet, Israel’s terrorist attack on the Free Gaza ship, Mavi Marmara, could hardly be less publicized. Yet on June 8, 1967—43 years ago—Israeli air and sea forces attacked another ship in international waters. It was the USS Liberty, conspicuously flying its American flag in clear weather; Israel used bombs, napalm and torpedoes against it. The attack on the Liberty remains the only maritime incident involving fatalities in US history which was never investigated by Congress. The attack occurred in international waters, and reports by eyewitnesses flatly contradict the Israel-excusing narrative to which the US agreed.

This article examines stunning parallels between the Liberty attack and the recent brutal takeover of the Gaza-bound flotilla. Both attacks occurred in international waters. In both, Israel heavy-handedly silenced eyewitnesses, discredited survivors, controlled a biased investigation—after having ordered the attacks to protect an even greater crime.

Joe Meadors survived both attacks. He was aboard the Liberty in 1967 and also an activist passenger on the flotilla this June. Meadors says international waters were violated both times. The Israelis, he says, “ think they can do no wrong. Every time they speak they say they don’t break any laws, they always abide by international laws. But, they break them with impunity and the US Government is not going to hold them accountable, nobody is.”

Is such pessimism warranted? It certainly is.

Forty-three years have passed since 34 servicemen were killed by Israel in international waters. The truth seems just as sinkable today.

Silencing Witnesses, Jamming Communication Devices

During the flotilla attack, one journalist was able to broadcast 90 seconds of live coverage to Al Jazeera, and then communication was cut off, as the Israelis jammed the activists’ communication devices. This is exactly what happened on board the Liberty. Communication devices were jammed with what survivors described as a “buzzsaw sound.”

The brief video dispatched to Al Jazeera reports civilian activists attacked with live fire by the IDF even while waving the white flag of surrender—dozens injured and several killed in international waters, while bearing aid to try to break the Gaza blockade. A Brazilian filmmaker was also able to smuggle out 60 minutes of tape in her underwear. The rest of the physical evidence—cameras and film—were seized by Israel and have still not been returned.

As the news about the flotilla attack was first surfacing, Israel dominated the information flow; the eyewitness survivors were being “quietly herded to Ashdod without means of communication to the outside world.”

Similarly, when the wounded were finally being evacuated from the Liberty, they were commanded not to speak to the press about what had happened. Thirty-four US soldiers were dead and 174 were wounded—yet eyewitnesses were not able to tell what they had seen and heard.

Discrediting and Silencing Survivors

After the flotilla event and continuing today, ADL/Israel has focused on discrediting the flotilla passengers by linking them to international terrorist groups. New York officials are asking the State Department to look into the visa applications of flotilla survivors who want to share their testimony in Brooklyn. Jewish Senator Chuck Schumer—who recently said Gaza should be economically strangled until it admits Israel’s right to exist—is forcefully insinuating that the flotilla activists are linked to Al Qaeda. Thus, flotilla survivors who raise their heads are threatened with personal investigations and public slander, pressuring them to keep their mouths shut.

Survivors of the Liberty who knew Israel had purposefully attacked their vessel were also silenced. Richard Larry Weaver, a seaman aboard the Liberty, says he was visited in the hospital by a three-star admiral. The admiral asked what had happened on the Liberty; and when Weaver stated his testimony, the admiral said, “ “If you tell anyone what happened you will be put in prison and we’ll lose the key.”

Investigation by Biased Parties

The investigation of the U.S.S. Liberty was conducted by the US Navy, which forbade eyewitnesses from reporting their testimony. “Within three weeks, the Navy put out a 700-page report, exonerating the Israelis, claiming the attack had been accidental and that the Israelis had pulled back as soon as they realized their mistake. Defense Secretary Robert McNamara suggested the whole affair should be forgotten. ‘These errors do occur,’ McNamara concluded.”

The attack on the Liberty remains the only maritime incident in US history, involving fatalities, which was never investigated by Congress. The Liberty Veterans Association, composed of survivors, says the inquiry didn’t even examine Israeli culpability but only focused on American miscommunications. No Israelis were questioned. All known survivors agree the attack was deliberate. But then, as today, the USA colluded with Israel to cover up the attacks and slaying of American citizens.

A Turkish-American was killed during the raid of the flotilla yet is receiving no justice from his country -- just the opposite: A senator has called for the arrest and prosecution of any Americans on board the vessels! The “inquiry” into the flotilla attack will be as much a sham as the Navy’s 700-page report on the U.S.S. Liberty. The US has agreed that an independent Israeli committee should look into the attack! The Jewish Forward admits there will be no real investigation of the Israeli military’s attack on the flotilla; only policy decisions will be examined. There will be a virtual “firewall” between the inquiry and the military.

“The panel will not be able to investigate firsthand the events on the ship and will not be able to judge between the two contradicting narratives — the Israeli storyline that depicts an encounter between lightly armed commandos and bloodthirsty terrorists, and the Turkish one that talks of peace activists on their way to a humanitarian relief mission brutally attacked by the Israeli navy. Furthermore, preferring an Israeli committee to an international panel means that investigators would likely have little to no access to the activists who were on board the ships.”

Violence Protects an Even Greater Crime

It is certain that Israel attacked the Liberty to cover up even more sinister crimes. In 1995, two shallow mass graves of Egyptian soldiers were discovered outside the Sinai city of El Arish; they were prisoners of war slaughtered by the Israeli army. James Bamford, in his 2001 Body of Secrets, suggests the Liberty, an intelligence ship, may have been attacked to prevent its discovery of these slaughters, to which Israeli veterans have admitted. A retired Israeli general personally admitted to murdering 49 surrendered and unarmed Egyptian POWs with submachine gunfire during the 1967 war.

George Ball, Undersecretary of State under Johnson and Kennedy, authored a 1992 book, The Passionate Attachment: America’s Involvement with Israel, 1947 to the Present. Ball’s book presents his conviction that the Liberty was attacked to prevent it from interfering with Israel’s plan to violate any ceasefire until it had completely seized the Golan Heights.

Ball reports, “Yet the ultimate lesson of the Liberty attack had far more effect on policy in Israel than in America. Israel’s leaders concluded that nothing they might do would offend the Americans to the point of reprisal. If America’s leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of American citizens, it seemed clear that their American friends would let them get away with almost anything.”

This has certainly been proven true in 2010. While the world gasps in horror, the United States stands with Israel’s “right to self-defense,” regardless of the cost in innocent life and the violation of international law.

Just as the Liberty was attacked to protect even greater crimes, so the Gaza-bound flotillas were attacked to prevent their interference with the continued blockade of Gaza—an atrocity that keeps 1.5 million people crowded into an open air prison. An Israeli Arab MK has told the European Parliament that Israeli leaders should be tried at The Hague for their crimes; in preventing medical supplies and medicine into Gaza, Israel has caused at least 700 Palestinian deaths at its border crossings, he said.

Incredibly, pro-Israel America, particularly Christian conservatives, will not face the truth about these even darker realities.

History has shown that if we ignore dark realities in the present, darker ones are sure to come.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rev. Ted Pike is director of the National Prayer Network, a Christian/conservative watchdog organization.

Aaron and Harmony Daws are staff researchers and writers for the National Prayer Network.

TALK SHOW HOSTS: Interview Rev. Ted Pike on this subject. Call (503) 631-3808.

The freedom-saving outreach of Rev. Ted Pike and the National Prayer Network is solely supported by sale of books, videos and your financial support. All gifts are tax-deductible.

National Prayer Network, P.O. Box 828, Clackamas, OR 97015

Originally posted by SamZED
Wait, so Israeli troops murder a bunch of innocent people and they're actually gonna get away with that?
Dude, no way!!!msn-oh

unfortunately thats the way the world is.Its a screwed up one thats for sure.

I am sorry, but the Freedom Flotilla by all accounts refused to cooperate with the Israelis using the procedures EVERYBODY ELSE uses without incident, and then effing ATTACKED the Israelis as they came onboard (as the cameras make plain). Nevermind their support for the unapologetic terrorist group Hamas. Given the actions of those on the ship, you do NOT want to know what the Israelis could have LEGALLY done to everybody on said ship.

This is a drummed up controversy whose true nature should have been obvious from the get-go.

Originally posted by Robtard
What should Israel do?
Zohan.

And regarding the USS Liberty, will everybody PLEASE stop citing that long-debunked tripe?

The simple fact of the matter is that the USS Liberty was several miles off its declared course and the Israelis were hunting an Egyptian ship- the El Qusier- that had been modified to look very much like the Liberty's profile and which was last seen using a false (Italian) flag, which is something of a tradition amongst the navies of the Arab League due to the tendency of the Israelis to sink anything they can readily identify as the enemy. The Israelis themselves were the first to notify us of the attack and they apologized. What evidence is there that this was anything but a tragic mistake of war?

That is something most of course never bother to mention.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
What evidence is there that this was anything but a tragic mistake of war?

That is something most of course never bother to mention.

Survivors of USS Liberty insist it was intentional. Besides, attack lasted for hours and noone figured out it was an American ship?
Only after some random Russian vessel showed up that the Israelis withdrew.

Besides, Israeli surveillance aircraft flew near USS liberty hours before the attack and STILL didn't figure out?

Sorry, kind of hard to believe that Israeli intelligence was THAT deficient .

"Survivors of USS Liberty insist it was intentional."

SOME of them do. And besides, obviously the ATTACK ITSELF was intentional, the true issue is whether the Israelis INTENTIONALLY ATTACKED AN AMERICAN VESSEL! Again, by all accounts the Israelis probably figured it was the El Qusier under false flag (again), particularly since the Liberty was a considerable distance off its declared course.

"Besides, attack lasted for hours and noone figured out it was an American ship?"

And how WOULD they realize it was one? They jammed communications as per standard tactics and as I mentioned before the Arab League has a VERY bad habit of using foreign flags to camoflague their shipping in war, so until the communications ACTUALLY got back up, the Israelis had no real way of knowing it was actually American.

"Only after some random Russian vessel showed up that the Israelis withdrew."

Again, mainly because they thought it was there to safeguard the EGYPTIAN ship they thought the Liberty was. AGAIN, the Arab League was backed by the USSR just as we more or less backed Israel, and do you REALLY think they thought the Soviets would have intervened to help their arch-enemies int he Cold War under attack?

"Besides, Israeli surveillance aircraft flew near USS liberty hours before the attack and STILL didn't figure out?"

So exactly WHAT would they have figured out? Surveillance craft of the era were more focused on keeping physical track of the ship rather than actually cracking into the communications and the like. Nobody really could effectively do such a thing until the 80's, and since several AL ships didn't even HAVE electronic communication, it was a bit moot. Physically, it's hard to tell a ship's actual allegience just by looking at it, particularly if the flag cannot be fully trusted.

"Sorry, kind of hard to believe that Israeli intelligence was THAT deficient."

Only because you apparently discount the numerous technical and logistical limits of the technology of the day.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
"Survivors of USS Liberty insist it was intentional."

SOME of them do. And besides, obviously the ATTACK ITSELF was intentional, the true issue is whether the Israelis INTENTIONALLY ATTACKED AN AMERICAN VESSEL! Again, by all accounts the Israelis probably figured it was the El Qusier under false flag (again), particularly since the Liberty was a considerable distance off its declared course.

Utter crap. According to a 1981 NSA report on the incident, the El Quseir "was approximately one-quarter of the Liberty's tonnage, about one-half its length, and offered a radically different silhouette''.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
And how WOULD they realize it was one? They jammed communications as per standard tactics and as I mentioned before the Arab League has a VERY bad habit of using foreign flags to camoflague their shipping in war, so until the communications ACTUALLY got back up, the Israelis had no real way of knowing it was actually American.

...which they attacked with an unmarked aircraft. IF ISrael believed USS Liberty was an Egyptian ship (which is utter crap) and therefore legitemate traget in war, WHY was it attacked by an UNMAKRED carrier?
Fail.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Again, mainly because they thought it was there to safeguard the EGYPTIAN ship they thought the Liberty was. AGAIN, the Arab League was backed by the USSR just as we more or less backed Israel, and do you REALLY think they thought the Soviets would have intervened to help their arch-enemies int he Cold War under attack?

Soviets didn't intervene, they were there by accident, witnessing the whole thing, hence withdrawal.
Israel intended to sink the USS Liberty and blame Egypt for it, thus dragging the United States into a war on Israel's behalf.
Just as it will happen with Iran if USA remains stupid.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
So exactly WHAT would they have figured out? Surveillance craft of the era were more focused on keeping physical track of the ship rather than actually cracking into the communications and the like. Nobody really could effectively do such a thing until the 80's, and since several AL ships didn't even HAVE electronic communication, it was a bit moot. Physically, it's hard to tell a ship's actual allegience just by looking at it, particularly if the flag cannot be fully trusted.

Surveillance would have seen and recognised ship two thirds heavier, half as big as their enemy's with "GTR-5" markings on the side of the ship.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Only because you apparently discount the numerous technical and logistical limits of the technology of the day.

No, because it is painfully obvious that there was something there other than a 'mistake'. A ''trigger happy commander'' is a better explanation than a ''mistaken identity''.

"Utter crap. According to a 1981 NSA report on the incident, the El Quseir "was approximately one-quarter of the Liberty's tonnage, about one-half its length, and offered a radically different silhouette''."

Yes, that was true of its NATURAL form. However, the Arab League is nothing if not inventive when it comes to camoflague, and indeed it has been standard procedure for a LONG time to take measures to "mutilate" the ship's profile via the use of aritifical mockups to increase its appearance and displacement so that it can pass as a larger ship than it really is. The NSA in that very report accepted the possibility that common Egyptian camoflague techniques meant that the EQ would have been "roughly equal to the appearance of the Liberty when viewed from the air," which is furhter cooberated by the photograph of it taken in Alexandria shortly before its voyage with an Italian flag.

"which they attacked with an unmarked aircraft."

The eyewitness accounts indicate that the Israelis planes were using LOW VISIBILITY INSIGNEA, ie their standard roundels only in various shades of gray. Which does NOT equal "unmarked."

"IF ISrael believed USS Liberty was an Egyptian ship (which is utter crap) and therefore legitemate traget in war, WHY was it attacked by an UNMAKRED carrier?"

They didn't. As the eyewitness testimony itself proved.

"Fail."

So says the person who apparently has only selectively glanced at the eyewitness accounts.

"Soviets didn't intervene, they were there by accident, witnessing the whole thing, hence withdrawal."

Um, reading comprehension much? They obviously didn't intervene, but by all accounts the Israelis thought they would, because (again) they thought the Liberty was an Egyptian ship. Which was a nation alligned with the USSR.

"Israel intended to sink the USS Liberty and blame Egypt for it, thus dragging the United States into a war on Israel's behalf."

Wonderful. DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF?

"Just as it will happen with Iran if USA remains stupid."

Oh, the Iranians have already DONE that for them. Or perhaps you have not noticed the 1979 declaration of WAR on us that is STILL IN EFFECT?

"Surveillance would have seen and recognised ship two thirds heavier, half as big as their enemy's with "GTR-5" markings on the side of the ship."

Except there are WAYS to camoflague a ship's profile on the open ocean, and even the NSA themselves in the very report you mention stated that it was quite possible that the EQ would in fact cut a very similar model to the Liberty due to the modifications. If you have ever studied maritime camoflague, you would KNOW this.

"No, because it is painfully obvious that there was something there other than a 'mistake'."

And yet you have failed at each and every turn to show how "painfully obvious" that is.

Face it, Lil Bitchness: If you can't do research, stay out of the fight.