Originally posted by GideonConcerning Palpatine's battle with Mace, Kit, Saesee, and Agen, there is also this statement made by Obi-Wan, and backed by Yoda...
I'm sure this has already been mentioned and likely conceded by any Bane enthusiast (with one notable exception), but Palpatine enjoys an advantage over Bane in terms of Force power, as per binding statements from canon sources (the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Dark Side Sourcebook, etc.). How much of an advantage that constitutes can be argued, I suppose, but nevertheless that advantage is there.Speed-wise, we can examine Palpatine's performance against Mace Windu and his team of Jedi Masters in Revenge of the Sith. Like it or not, all of the Jedi assembled were "celebrated swordsmen" and held in high regard by both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu. In addition, all four of them were prepared for a confrontation, with their weapons brandished and ignited and equipped with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Masters Kolar and Tiin were removed in, what? Two seconds? Palpatine went on to spar with both Fisto and Windu simultaneously -- the same Fisto who was able to outduel General Grievous in single combat as seen in the Star Wars: the Clone Wars TV show. But both of them together weren't enough, Fisto was cut down only after a few exchanges and Palpatine "forced the mighty Windu back" (per Windu's entry in the official databank). It was only after Windu summoned the full power of Vaapad (the deadliest and most difficult of all lightsaber forms) that he was able to even match Palpatine. In the Making of the Revenge of the Sith, Lucas explicitly states that you have to be Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine. Which means, no matter what, the other three -- despite being prolific swordsmen and experienced Jedi Masters -- could never win against Palpatine based on their own skill and power alone. The fight would have ended the same way, regardless of the circumstances.
"Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee--four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance." "True," Yoda said. "But both of us apart, a chance we might create . . .""
My point is that Sidious overwhelmed and slew 3 of the confirmed greatest swordsman in the order's history, through what appeared to be superior overall speed -- not necessarily superior lightsaber skill (going by the movie's depiction of this battle for the last bit.)
Originally posted by GideonPalpatine's slaying of Kit certainly would have incorporated an impressive degree of technical skill (combating 2 opponents simultaneously usually does.) However, I still think that superior speed played a HUGE part there.
I'd agree with you that Kolar and Tiin's deaths were the result of Palpatine's superior speed, but I'm not certain that that distinction can be quite as clearly made with Fisto and Windu.
The fact of the matter is, that Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn being 2 of the greatest swordsman the Jedi order had ever possessed didn't help them at all against Sidious's superior speed, since he was stronger in the force.
Maul/Yoda/Mace/DE Luke/Marek and... Kit, according to Gideon's post above. (though I still think he was kinda out-classed by Sidious's speed) were all able to successfully cross blades against this speed. In other words, every single opponent of ANY substantial force power is able to fight a normal duel with Sidious.
So sidious is going to have to win a normal light-saber duel over Bane. We can't work from an assumption that Sidious will outclass Bane to the point of defeating him without a fight like Kolar and Tinn.
Can he win the duel? certainly. He may be better than Bane with a blade. Even Johun got in a cut on Bane during their fight. (albeit (see Blank, it wasn't THAT hard of a thing to type!) that was with Bane contending with 3 other high-level masters under BM at the same time)
My problem with giving him a no-doubt victory under these conditions is that Sidious only has Bane's head to aim for. anything else can't be touched, or heals quickly enough to make it useless. Sidious would have to completely out-class Bane with a blade to make up the difference in available target space. I don't know if Sidious is THAT much better than Bane with a lightsaber. I will need further evidence.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefingtonIn the Revenge of the Sith novelization.
What book did obiwan say this in?
Originally posted by truejediAside from Mace, none of the opponents you mentioned were able to defeat Palpatine in a duel (quite the contrary, in fact) - so I'm not sure if I understand where you were going with that..?
Maul/Yoda/Mace/DE Luke/Marek and... Kit, according to Gideon's post above. (though I still think he was kinda out-classed by Sidious's speed) were all able to successfully cross blades against this speed. In other words, every single opponent of ANY substantial force power is able to fight a normal duel with Sidious.So sidious is going to have to win a normal light-saber duel over Bane. We can't work from an assumption that Sidious will outclass Bane to the point of defeating him without a fight like Kolar and Tinn.
I don't think Palps could outclass Bane to the same degree he did against Agen and Saesee. However, the fact that he was able to effortlessly slay two of 'the best swordsman the order has ever produced' before they even had a chance to defend themselves, should speak volumes concerning his overall speed/technical skill (as should his simultaneous battle with Kit [who was also killed very swiftly] and Mace.)
I don't think anyone has said that Palps could outclass Bane to the same degree he did against Agen and Saesee. However, the fact that he was able to effortlessly slay two of 'the best swordsman the order had ever produced' before they even had a chance to defend themselves, should speak volumes concerning his overall speed (as should his battle with Mace.)
Theres a difference between being technically skilled and being strong in the Force speed department. Them being talented swordsmen (which btw is only Kenobi's opinion if we're going just by that quote) simply showcases their technical skill and does not equate them being powerfull overall combatants like Mace, Yoda, Luke etc.
Originally posted by NephthysConsidering Obi-Wan essentially said "If Palpatine could kill all of them, he could easily kill the both of us [he and Yoda]", I think it's save to say that they had a pretty impressive power/skill ratio.
Theres a difference between being technically skilled and being strong in the Force speed department. Them being talented swordsmen (which btw is only Kenobi's opinion if we're going just by that quote) simply showcases their technical skill and does not equate them being powerfull overall combatants like Mace, Yoda, Luke etc.
srug
Originally posted by truejedi
Bane vs. Mace in a force fight? IMO, Bane wins that.
Bane was left drained after Kas'im blocked his TK wave. He was simply lying there, regaining his strength after he unleashed it. Furthermore, he has to deal with Vaapad, although I'm not sure he knows any other techniques that could be of real harm to Windu.
Either of those force-fights, would be, in my opinion a toss-up. Yoda would need a lightsaber to beat Bane. So saying: Sidious can match Mace in the force and overpower Yoda with the force (which didn't happen btw..) means that he definitly beats Bane is wrong.
Bane = Yoda?
nty
Bane = Mace?
Fine. But definitely not in lightsaber combat, with Vaapad being a factor. Which was the only way Mace could even match Palpatine's speed, not force power. Palpatine threw the force fight, and overpowered Yoda with his lightning. What feats has Bane displayed with the force, aside from unleashing the inferno?
You just haven't substantiated furiously though. It doesn't say that Mace is invisible in ROTS. Invisible in shatterpoint, to Kar Vastor, but perhaps not here.
If an omnicient narrarator says that Mace's speed was invisible, then Mace was invisible. Simple as that.
Saesee Tinn, and Agen Kolar being the order's greatest Swordsman (and the quote says some of the greatest swordsmen, btw... means little when it comes to using the force. Nowhere is ANY indication given that they are gifted with strong force abilities. Anoon Bondara was the most skilled swordsman as well, but he wasn't that good.
Exactly. This is how Bane beat Kas'im, by combining his force power with his unmatched knowledge of the two-handed saber.
1. In my opinion, Sidious DID speed rush Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn. It is the simplest explanation. I think he was just better than Fisto.
Yes.
2. None of those three are ANYWHERE near Bane when it comes to force ability.
Nor Palpatine.
3.Maul/Yoda/Mace have all 3 successfully crossed blades with Sidious without being overwhelmed by his speed. Bane has comparable force ability.
When did Maul actually fight Sidious? Even so, I doubt Palpatine was trying to actually kill his student.
Yoda is a master of lightsaber combat, with a metric ton of force power and knowledge. Still, Sidious defeated him.
Mace > All darksiders (except if DE Palpatine melts his saber) in terms of lightsaber combat. Seriously, no darksider can beat him, no matter how powerful they are. ROTS Palpatine is no excepetion to this. Bane is no exception to this. Whereas, once again, when it came down to the force, Palpatine threw the fight.
Thing is, never was it claimed that Palpatine's speed exceeded Bane's. The only thin I claimed was that he had speed feats that matched his, so the battle would ultimately be decided by technical skill and force power.
4. The quote "furious" speed is nice, and if you are going to say that he was using "invisible" speed in his fight with Mace, great, but considering Maul was able to keep up with "invisible" speed, and Padawan Kenobi was able to keep up with Maul....
See above, and re-read TPM. Maul was toying with both of them.
I think you are really underestimating Bane to say that Sidious can simply speed rush him. Sidious didn't do that to any of the top-tier combatants he faced, and Bane is DEFINITLY top-tier by all indications.
I love Bane. I really do. He won't be speed rushed. But he is severely outclassed here.
Your lightning idea is better, but he must successfully disarm Bane first. Not saying it couldn't happen, but it would be difficult since Bane doesn't have to pay any attention to protecting most of his body when fighting.
I read series called Dark Emperor, chronicling the events between ANH and DE from the Emperor's perspective, detailing his obsession with immortality and his cloning projects. Anyways, one part fascinated me, and I needn't bore you with details, but an untrained dark Jedi was capable of not only absorbing ANH Palpatine's lightning, but releasing it back at him, hurling Palpatine back.
If Bane is capable of this, then this fight is closer than I would have thought. If not, Palpatine wins. By a significant margin.
I read series called Dark Emperor, chronicling the events between ANH and DE from the Emperor's perspective, detailing his obsession with immortality and his cloning projects. Anyways, one part fascinated me, and I needn't bore you with details, but an untrained dark Jedi was capable of not only absorbing ANH Palpatine's lightning, but releasing it back at him, hurling Palpatine back.Why are you making things up?
He is, I just Googled it. It's part of a fanon. Check it.
Originally posted by Galan007
My point is that Sidious overwhelmed and slew 3 of the confirmed greatest swordsman in the order's history...
Where is it confirmed that those were three of the orders greatest? I didn't know that Obi-Wan's personal opinion counts as "fact", neither does that of Mace Windu...
Try again.