Originally posted by NephthysTrue. However, if the happenings of the novel weren't contradicted by the happenings of the movie, then the former are permissible as evidence.
And since Movie>Book, whats shown on-screen trumps whats in the novel.
That being said, where things like Palpatine's speed feats are concerned -- just because said speed feats were better described in the novel, doesn't mean they are non-canon simply because they may not have appeared to be as 'uber' in the film. Etc.
Originally posted by Nephthys[b]
the Master told him. "In that last pass you broke off your attack in the middle of one sequence and came at me from a completely different and unexpected angle."- Kas'im. [/B]
"You've moved far beyond sequences and forms,"
So... it's not stated that he is a master. Of any form.
Wookiepedia lists him as a Djem So master, but no line from either RoT or PoD confirms this.
I'm looking at the novelization that we are all fighting so hard over, and it strikes me that we are wasting our time:
The only description of Sidious's speed is given on pg. 329, from Anakin's perspective:
"The Shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be palpatine?"
and the ambiguous "furious speed" on pg 330. Sorry, but "furious" doesn't make a good argument for "faster than Bane".
The first quote sounds good, but it is definitly non-canon, since Anakin didn't arrive till the lightsaber fight was over.
Nowhere is it said that Sidious was too fast for Saesee Tinn and Agen Kolar. Rewatching, it could be said he had better technique or footwork than they did. The Novelization of THEIR deaths is also non-canon, meaning what we see, is what we get.
I am not saying Bane wins this fight, I am saying: There is NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that Sidious would be able to simply speed-rush Bane and kill him in a moment. This is a heck of a close fight.
You can dispute furious all you want. I don't care anymore. Ultimately, Mace has to use Vaapad to only match Palpatine's speed. This is the same Mace referred to in Shatterpoint as invisible.
Once again, Saesee, Fitso and Depa referred to as the order's greatest swordsmen in Shadow Hunter, implying that they are able to take care of themselves and obviously have intimate saber knowledge and technique. The fact that Sidious ran over them in 5 seconds (film version) is an impressive feat. The fact that he fell Fitso within 10 seconds is also impressive. Particularily since there is no indication anywhere that Palpatine had practiced saber combat in the past decade, and thus his skill became rusty.
An alternative to "speed rushing", is simply disarming Bane and then melting him with lightning. If Sidious could match Windu and then overpower Yoda with the force with no practice for ten years, Bane doesn't stand a chance.
EDIT: Also see above post.
Bane vs. Mace in a force fight? IMO, Bane wins that.
Didn't you say:
If Sidious could match Windu and then overpower Yoda with the force with no practice for ten years, Bane doesn't stand a chance.
Either of those force-fights, would be, in my opinion a toss-up. Yoda would need a lightsaber to beat Bane. So saying: Sidious can match Mace in the force and overpower Yoda with the force (which didn't happen btw..) means that he definitly beats Bane is wrong.
You just haven't substantiated furiously though. It doesn't say that Mace is invisible in ROTS. Invisible in shatterpoint, to Kar Vastor, but perhaps not here.
Saesee Tinn, and Agen Kolar being the order's greatest Swordsman (and the quote says some of the greatest swordsmen, btw... means little when it comes to using the force. Nowhere is ANY indication given that they are gifted with strong force abilities. Anoon Bondara was the most skilled swordsman as well, but he wasn't that good.
All that aside: It boils down to this: And if you are going to address something, address this: your paragraph answers which prompt MY paragraph answers are annoying to both of us, i'm sure.
1. In my opinion, Sidious DID speed rush Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn. It is the simplest explanation. I think he was just better than Fisto.
2. None of those three are ANYWHERE near Bane when it comes to force ability.
3.Maul/Yoda/Mace have all 3 successfully crossed blades with Sidious without being overwhelmed by his speed. Bane has comparable force ability.
4. The quote "furious" speed is nice, and if you are going to say that he was using "invisible" speed in his fight with Mace, great, but considering Maul was able to keep up with "invisible" speed, and Padawan Kenobi was able to keep up with Maul....
I think you are really underestimating Bane to say that Sidious can simply speed rush him. Sidious didn't do that to any of the top-tier combatants he faced, and Bane is DEFINITLY top-tier by all indications.
Your lightning idea is better, but he must successfully disarm Bane first. Not saying it couldn't happen, but it would be difficult since Bane doesn't have to pay any attention to protecting most of his body when fighting.
I'm still of the opinion that this fight is a toss-up. I picked the fight because it was the closest fight I could think of for Bane.
Originally posted by Shoes
So... it's not stated that he is a master. Of any form.Wookiepedia lists him as a Djem So master, but no line from either RoT or PoD confirms this.
I can see why you're looked down upon by the rest. What part of 'You've moved far beyond sequences and Forms' do you not understand? I'm positive that if I combed through POD I'd find a quote that shows he mastered Djem So at the least but it really doesn't matter. The (arguably) greatest swordsman in the mythos says that he's 'far beyond' forms, showing that he has EXTREME(!) mastery of them.
For that matter, wtf do you mean by 'mastery'? Does it have to be explicitly stated before you can call someone a 'master'? Becuase I'm pretty sure Sidious isn't called a master swordsman either. Does that mean that he isn't one? We know that Bane memorised 'thousands' if not hundreds of thousands of sequences, was comparable in skill to the two greatest swordsmasters of his time (Raskta and Kas'im) and knew multiple forms and variations of those forms such as double-bladed style, well enough to teach Zannah and create her 'absolute defence!1!!1' and Kas'im himself said that he was 'far beyond sequences and forms.' If Bane isn't a a master-class swordsman I'll eat my foot. 😐
An alternative to "speed rushing", is simply disarming Bane and then melting him with lightning. If Sidious could match Windu and then overpower Yoda with the force with no practice for ten years, Bane doesn't stand a chance.
You really know nothing about Bane do you. Sidious won't be able to disarm Bane like he's a petulant child with a stick. Bane has comparable speed and skill to Sidious and the orbalisks, no way is Sids taking him down so easily.
Once again, Saesee, Fitso and Depa referred to as the order's greatest swordsmen in Shadow Hunter, implying that they are able to take care of themselves and obviously have intimate saber knowledge and technique. The fact that Sidious ran over them in 5 seconds (film version) is an impressive feat. The fact that he fell Fitso within 10 seconds is also impressive. Particularily since there is no indication anywhere that Palpatine had practiced saber combat in the past decade, and thus his skill became rusty.
His skill had nothing to do with it. Watch the scene again, he didn't outduel them in a stunning display of lightsaber mastery, he just acted before they could react. Something which Bane would have done to the Grandmaster of the Order and its premier Swordsbeast in ROT if they hadn't have been under the influence of battle meditation.
I'm sure this has already been mentioned and likely conceded by any Bane enthusiast (with one notable exception), but Palpatine enjoys an advantage over Bane in terms of Force power, as per binding statements from canon sources (the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Dark Side Sourcebook, etc.). How much of an advantage that constitutes can be argued, I suppose, but nevertheless that advantage is there.
Speed-wise, we can examine Palpatine's performance against Mace Windu and his team of Jedi Masters in Revenge of the Sith. Like it or not, all of the Jedi assembled were "celebrated swordsmen" and held in high regard by both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu. In addition, all four of them were prepared for a confrontation, with their weapons brandished and ignited and equipped with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Masters Kolar and Tiin were removed in, what? Two seconds? Palpatine went on to spar with both Fisto and Windu simultaneously -- the same Fisto who was able to outduel General Grievous in single combat as seen in the Star Wars: the Clone Wars TV show. But both of them together weren't enough, Fisto was cut down only after a few exchanges and Palpatine "forced the mighty Windu back" (per Windu's entry in the official databank). It was only after Windu summoned the full power of Vaapad (the deadliest and most difficult of all lightsaber forms) that he was able to even match Palpatine. In the Making of the Revenge of the Sith, Lucas explicitly states that you have to be Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine. Which means, no matter what, the other three -- despite being prolific swordsmen and experienced Jedi Masters -- could never win against Palpatine based on their own skill and power alone. The fight would have ended the same way, regardless of the circumstances.
Maul was a master of Juyo, a lightsaber form that required its user to be “a high level master of multiple forms,” according to Fight Saber and the Essential Guide to the Force, indicating that Palpatine himself was one such master. The Emperor’s simulacrum depicted in the Telos Holocron claimed to have “trained [Maul] in esoteric martial arts,” accrediting Sidious a level of great skill in combat. In Episode I Journal: Darth Maul, Darth Sidious demonstrates the ability to “move faster than [Maul’s] eye could follow,” and wielded a lightsaber with such preternatural precision that he traced his apprentice’s body with its blade so closely that “one flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle” would have killed him.
I'd need to see more of Bane's feats and whatnot that indicates he could defeat Palpatine, because he already faces a disadvantage in Force strength and skill.
Palpatine went on to spar with both Fisto and Windu simultaneously -- the same Fisto who was able to outduel General Grievous in single combat as seen in the Star Wars: the Clone Wars TV show. But both of them together weren't enough, Fisto was cut down only after a few exchanges and Palpatine "forced the mighty Windu back" (per Windu's entry in the official databank).
This is particularly impressive for me as Grievous has been described as such in the ROTS novel: 'The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan-but he didn't have to.'
Although its stupid to think that no human can move as fast as Grievous, as Luke, Bane, Sidious, Windu etc probably can, its still an indication of just how fast, skillfull and deadly you'd have to be to beat him, which Kit Fisto did and Sidious would have to had to have been faster and deadlier in turn to beat Fisto so effortlessly.
Can we be sure that Sidious himself trained Maul in Juyo, and that Maul couldn't have been trained in the art through some other means?
Given that Bane introduced the ability to make Holocron's I find it very possibly that he could have learnt it a different way, such as from one. Heck, Zannah can pretty much walk into the Order at any time, the Sith have many ways of obtaining details on forms and such from them and a millenia to do it in.
I'd wager that the novelization is correct; strictly speaking, no human can move as fast as Grievous. The passage goes onto indicate that much of Obi-Wan's success in his encounters with the general was largely due to his state of mind and unity with the Force; precognition that enabled him to perceive what Grievous was going to do. If you can accurately predict what an opponent will do, you don't necessarily have to be faster than him if you're efficient enough.
N
Given that Bane introduced the ability to make Holocron's I find it very possibly that he could have learnt it a different way, such as from one. Heck, Zannah can pretty much walk into the Order at any time, the Sith have many ways of obtaining details on forms and such from them and a millenia to do it in.
Do you have anything other than speculation?
Nope. Do you have anything to indicate that Sidious was the one teaching him Juyo?
I'd wager that the novelization is correct; strictly speaking, no human can move as fast as Grievous. The passage goes onto indicate that much of Obi-Wan's success in his encounters with the general was largely due to his state of mind and unity with the Force; precognition that enabled him to perceive what Grievous was going to do. If you can accurately predict what an opponent will do, you don't necessarily have to be faster than him if you're efficient enough.
Well, I'd say that since Kit was able to fight Grievous despite his speed, yet was completely unable to deal with Sidious', that Sidious at least could be said to be as fast as him, or faster. Of course, Sidious could have just have been utterly blocking out his ability to feel his intent and predict his attacks, which would be staggering for most Jedi.
N
Nope.
I didn't think so.
N
Do you have anything to indicate that Sidious was the one teaching him Juyo?
Other than the fact that he was Maul's Master? Or am I to assume that, contrary to the numerous sources that indicate as much, there really was a Rule of Three that included a third Sith Lord, specifically created for the purposes of this discussion, manufactured to compromise Sidious's lightsaber skills?
Well, unfortunately for you, I do.
"A Zabrak born on the world of lridonia, the child who would one day be known as Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by a holocron a third Sith MasterDarth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts." -- the Dark Side Sourcebook, pg. 86.
Other than the fact that he was Maul's Master? Or am I to assume that, contrary to the numerous sources that indicate as much, there really was a Rule of Three that included a third Sith Lord, specifically created for the purposes of this discussion, manufactured to compromise Sidious's lightsaber skills?
Well, unfortunately for you, I do.
"A Zabrak born on the world of lridonia, the child who would one day be known as Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by
a holocron a third Sith MasterDarth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts." -- the Dark Side Sourcebook, pg. 86.
And am I to assume that Bane went to all that trouble learning how to record teachings and techniques down in Holocron's just for shits and giggles? Maybe after he made it he just threw it out of the window becuase **** it, no-ones ever going to use it. No, its pretty silly to believe that the Sith never used the Holocron's that were in their possetion. Heck, ROT shows that a Sith Lord isn't enough to teach an apprentice everything, and that sometimes they need to utilise other sources (in this case a wierd sorcery book) to teach subects outside of their own repertoire.
As it is, your quote is enough to get me to drop the point, but I still think its a shakey point, Sidious can teach Maul through a Holocron just as an English teacher can teach through a book assignment, or Bane can teach Zannah by giving her that book thingy.
We must have read different books, 'cuz I recall that the only thing that stopped Palpatine from overwhelming Marek's mind was Kota's... unique intervention.
/shrug/ I read it mostly in the store, so maybe. Anyway, Bane has shown remarkable skill at resisting Mind-influence early in his training, that I don't recall Marek ever having. I doubt he'll be able to utilise it in battle at any rate.
Originally posted by Gideon
"A Zabrak born on the world of lridonia, the child who would one day be known as Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained bya holocrona third Sith Master[b]Darth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts." -- the Dark Side Sourcebook, pg. 86. [/B]
That would only indicate that Sidious provided some degree of Maul's training in the mentioned fields, not necessarily all of it.
Edit - And yeah, as Nephthys mentioned Sidious could still be considered Maul's teacher through proxy of providing him with teaching material.
N
As it is, your quote is enough to get me to drop the point,
I tend to have that effect. 😎
N
but I still think its a shakey point,
Joking aside, I'm going to treat this particular line the same way I would if HWKN said it: what you think is irrelevant here. We're not having a discussion, we're having a debate; if this were in the confines of Project Holocron or a casual chat, then perhaps I'd be interested in going further with this line of thought. As it is, you have an opinion: Bane wins. I have an opinion: Bane does not. Baseless speculation really has nothing to do with this thread.
The line flat out says that Palpatine was the one who trained Maul in combat, not a holocron nor a droid nor an artificial Sith Lord created for the purposes of this discussion. If you or anyone else (Nebaris, I'm looking at you [and you look pretty]) want to challenge the quote, then you must provide canonical basis for it.
As it stands, the quote is binding and decisive. On this particular part of the topic, the discussion is over until such a time that someone provides the basis to challenge it.
I know its from a later incarnation, so I'm not going to be trying to use it for this argument, but this is a pretty nifty show of skill, stamina and speed, particularly as he's just been whining about being weaker (just started actually reading it).
From Dynasty of Evil:
As the first fat drops splattered onto the patio stones around him, Bane exploded into action. Abandoning the overpowering style of Djem So, he shifted to the quicker sequences of Soresu, his lightsaber tracing tight circles above his head in a series of movements designed to intercept enemy blaster bolts.The wind rose to a howling gale, and the scattered drops quickly became a downpour. His body and mind united as one, he channeled the infinite power of the Force against the driving rain. Tiny clouds of hissing steam formed as his blade picked off the descending drops while Bane twisted, twirled, and contorted his body to evade those few that managed to slip through his defenses.
For the next ten minutes he battled the pelting storm, reveling in the power of the dark side. And then, as suddenly as it had begun, the tempest was gone, the dark cloud scurrying away on the breeze. Breathing hard, Bane extinguished his lightsaber. His skin was sheened in sweat, but not a single drop of rain had touched his bare flesh.
Joking aside, I'm going to treat this particular line the same way I would if HWKN said it: what you think is irrelevant here. We're not having a discussion, we're having a debate
Which is why I immediately said why I thought that, backing my point up with evidence, rather than just saying I thought so 'just cuz'. crackers