Revan vs Dooku

Originally posted by Gideon
DnC doesn't seem to be trying to contest the quotes, merely your interpretation of them. That Palpatine was diminishing the Order's connection to the Force and clouding the future does not mean that this was the case before the events of the Phantom Menace; Palpatine was weakening the Jedi's ability to sense the future, but prior to that? The dark side was just gaining in strength.

FOR ****'s SAKE, DO NOT USE THE TERM LIGHT SIDE. plz

Originally posted by Gideon
FOR ****'s SAKE, DO NOT USE THE TERM LIGHT SIDE. plz

👆

There is the Force and (in its evil users) the dark side. There's definitely no light side. I cringe whenever I see that expression.

I also cringe whenever I see a self-respecting dark sider use the expression 'dark side'.

But but...why? 🙁

EDIT: Nvm, but I hope you still get what I was trying to say.

^ I explained in da post above.

Originally posted by Gideon
DnC doesn't seem to be trying to contest the quotes, merely your interpretation of them. That Palpatine was diminishing the Order's connection to the Force and clouding the future does not mean that this was the case before the events of the Phantom Menace; Palpatine was weakening the Jedi's ability to sense the future, but prior to that? The dark side was just gaining in strength.

Two items:

Curious as to an example of how Palpatine clouded the future and meddled with the Order's connection to the Force. One can infer from the movies that this was the case, and I'm not disputing it, but do any of the books or comics demonstrate it? Would be a very interesting read if so.

When the dark side gains in strength, is this a result of subsequent Sith Lords getting stronger and stronger (Rule of Two)? Or is it just the 'dark side' getting stronger of its own volition (not sure if that is possible, or even makes sense).

Originally posted by Gideon
DnC doesn't seem to be trying to contest the quotes, merely your interpretation of them. That Palpatine was diminishing the Order's connection to the Force and clouding the future does not mean that this was the case before the events of the Phantom Menace; Palpatine was weakening the Jedi's ability to sense the future, but prior to that? The dark side was just gaining in strength.

Enyalus
Except that per the quotes you provided, particularly the ones from Labyrinth of Evil and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, the Jedi's connection to the Force was weakening before Palpatine was ever born

Not at all.

The Revenge of the Sith novelization and the official databank make it very clear that Palpatine himself was the imbalance in the Force and the one solely responsible for diminishing the Jedi Order's collective ability to sense through the Force; the novelization identifies Palpatine himself as "the darkness within the Force" that had hindered the Jedi, and the direct quote from the databank,

"Something was clouding the future, and the order’s very connection to the Force was weakening. That a Sith Lord existed in the galaxy was not in doubt, but could this shadowy villain really bring this much imbalance to the Force?"

I'm sorry, but DnC is correct: Windu's dialogue in Attack of the Clones and the statement from the official databank make it abundantly clear that he is surprised at how suddenly the Jedi have lost certain capacity to use the Force. Trying to say that their connection was weakened entirely before Palpatine is to contradict the abundance of sources (notice the databank also identifies "a Sith Lord (Palpatine)" as the cause of the disturbance, which is why killing that Sith Lord removed the imbalance.

Without reading the databank, are you saying that this:

"Something was clouding the future, and the order’s very connection to the Force was weakening. That a Sith Lord existed in the galaxy was not in doubt, but could this shadowy villain really bring this much imbalance to the Force?"

Means this:

The Revenge of the Sith novelization and the official databank make it very clear that Palpatine himself was the imbalance in the Force and the one solely responsible for diminishing the Jedi Order's collective ability to sense through the Force; the novelization identifies Palpatine himself as "the darkness within the Force" that had hindered the Jedi, and the direct quote from the databank,

Absolutely; the databank indicates that Windu is surprised that a single Sith was able to so drastically alter the playing field.

Originally posted by Gideon
Not at all.

The Revenge of the Sith novelization and the official databank make it very clear that Palpatine himself was the imbalance in the Force

Originally posted by Gideon
and the one solely responsible for diminishing the Jedi Order's collective ability to sense through the Force;

Once Palpatine takes power and mastery over the Sith, this ability, this weakening of connection to the Force, is at it's xenith - yes. But it certainly does not start with Sidious.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm sorry, but DnC is correct: Windu's dialogue in Attack of the Clones and the statement from the official databank make it abundantly clear that he is surprised at how suddenly the Jedi have lost certain capacity to use the Force.

Originally posted by Gideon
Trying to say that their connection was weakened entirely before Palpatine is to contradict the abundance of sources (notice the databank also identifies "[b]a Sith Lord (Palpatine)" as the cause of the disturbance, which is why killing that Sith Lord removed the imbalance. [/B]

Originally posted by Gideon
Absolutely; the databank indicates that Windu is surprised that a single Sith was able to so drastically alter the playing field.

Read my post again, carefully. I don't know what the databank says but it seems like you're saying something definite, and then posting a question from a source, "could it be...".

Every age has produced some heavy weights. And PT era was no exception. Yoda and Mace are specially notable.

However, due to lack of exposure to the constant threat of formidable opponents (e.g. Sith and Mandalorians), the majority of the PT era Jedi put less emphasis on combat and the disaster of Geonosis is one example. Add to this the case of Jango Fett, who managed to kill Jedi even with his bare hands, makes things look even worse for PT era Jedi Order.

In contrast, the Jedi Order of OR not just faced the threat of Mandalorians, they also had to deal with nuemerous Sith invasions. These pressures would ensure survival of the fittest.

Also, the heavy weights of OR were no joke by any means (Sith or Jedi). They accomplished some amazing feats;

1. Sion gained immortality.
2. Nihilus could drain entire planets.
3. Traya could kill Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand.
4. Ancient Sith could cheat death or learned ways to live very long.
5. Exile became death of the Force and defeated 3 notable Sith Lords (mentioned above).
6. Revan (as a Sith) created a Sith Empire and (as a Jedi) played a pivotal role in defeating the Sith Empire he created. His legacy (as a Sith) would again prove to be instrumental in making Sith once again very powerful and the lineage would give rise to Palpatine (the ultimate one).

In addition, SWTOR reveals that some Jedi Masters of those times were very powerful. The SWTOR Hope video presents an example.

So we should give the heavy weights of OR credit whenever due.

So to cut through the bull, Revan wins, he says.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So to cut through the bull, Revan wins, he says.

In ma wallet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

In addition, SWTOR reveals that some Jedi Masters of those times were very powerful. The SWTOR Hope video presents an example.

Would Lucas have it any other way? Want to sell millions of copies of TOR, GL does. Splashy graphics and hot Jedi, effective marketing they are. Can compete against the likes of World of Warcraft, GL believes. **** the continuity of his Star Wars Galaxy and the Force itself, GL must...

Count Dracula wins

Originally posted by SWFan4Life
Would Lucas have it any other way? Want to sell millions of copies of TOR, GL does. Splashy graphics and hot Jedi, effective marketing they are. Can compete against the likes of World of Warcraft, GL believes. **** the continuity of his Star Wars Galaxy and the Force itself, GL must...

This doesn't exactly invalidate his argument.