Revan vs Dooku

Originally posted by truejedi
honestly, we have:

the "golden age of the jedi" and that the "most powerful foe the darkness had ever known" and "the most dangerous Sith apprentice"(being killed by a jedi) and the "most powerful Sith Lord"(being defeated by one Jedi and stalemated by another) and "some of the most dangerous swordsbeings the order had ever produced" about Saesee Tinn, Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar.

These are measures that compare this era to other eras. For the KOTOR era, we don't have similar comparisons in regard to the PT era. If you want to ignore all of the above and say " Lolz PT Jedi were WEAK", then honestly, more power to you, but please don't try to pass it off as unmitigated fact.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
The PT council would absolutely annihilate every other Jedi council (save for the NJO council), it's not even funny and I don't see how mentioning their weakest links has any relevance here because everyone has them.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
The fact that the darkside was rising over the past 200 years does not mean that the lightside was weakening, THAT didn't happen until Sidious actually started to make his move (as noted by Mace).

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia notes in the entry concerning the Jedi Knights that “the nature of the Force was considered to be a constant, but this belief changed some 200 years before the Battle of Yavin, when Jedi Masters began to find that their connection to the Force had become nebulous or darkened."

Originally posted by Enyalus

You're speculating, and so would I if I were to disagree with you. But I imagine that the Jedi High Council during Kaan's Brotherhood was pretty spectacular. Or the Council during the Great Hunt.

Except for canon explicitly disagreeing?

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia notes in the entry concerning the Jedi Knights that “the nature of the Force was considered to be a constant, but this belief changed some 200 years before the Battle of Yavin, when Jedi Masters began to find that their connection to the Force had become nebulous or darkened." [/B]

@TH: I'll address your points tomorrow (CET timezone and bedtime over here)

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
So Yoda, Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Depa Billaba, Saesee Tiin, Shaak Ti, Anakin Skywalker, etc. would lose to who excatly?

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Except that it's not. "The nature of the Force was considered to be a constant" because they haven't experienced any strong darkside presence at all and thus didn't know any feeling other than the lightside (hence "constant"😉. That changed when darkness finally made it's way into the galaxy again (likely Plagueis) and so they suddenly sensed darkness IN ADDITION to the light, however nowhere does it say that the lightside actually got weaker.

Keyword here: on average. I'm not going to look at the Great Sith War and conclude that every Jedi was on the level of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider. Similarly, you cannot take the absolute pinnacle of PT Jedi power in Yoda and Mace and Anakin (who was born by the Force itself specifically to combat the growing imbalance) and apply it across the board as proof that PT Jedi were TEH BESTEST EVA!!!!!!!!!!!!

"So Yoda, Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Depa Billaba, Saesee Tiin, Shaak Ti, Anakin Skywalker, etc. would lose to who excatly?"

Yoda and Anakin are difficult to place, but considering that this is an era that is marked by a HELL of a lot of Dark Jedi and that Anakin historically lost to the cocky and tactically undistinguished Dooku, I am sure that sooner or later they would go down. The others died mostly to the clones (and in Shaak Ti's case to a Starkiller/Marek that was certainly well trained but who was comparatively inexperienced to her, as you yourself noted), so I am sure that the numerous Dark Jedi and the Sith's elite Jedi-killing squads (like Atton) could handle them. Again, the key fact you forget is that the KOTOR era has: 1. Advanced Jedi-on-Jedi combat strategies that have been taught to Padawans and Acolytes on both sides of the trenches and which have been continuously refined in the fire of combat. 2. Plenty of the lore that was no longer known by the Prequel era, and perhaps most important of all, 3. Numbers. Simply put, the Jedi and Dark Jedi of this era both number in the several thousand. How big is the Prequel order? Judging from what comments we have, nowhere near as large. Throw enough of them at a target at any given time and you will probably take down anything: Yoda, Revan, Anakin, Obi-Wan, hell, perhaps even Sidious himself.

And I LOVE how you sidestepped the issue of the quality of the AVERAGE Jedi. These people were not average, they were THE ELITE of the Prequel Jedi. And yet most of them were defeated and killed, and only Anakin was defeated by an actual Dark Jedi (Dooku). Why do you not feel like adding them into the calculation, eh?

"Seriously, at this point it's not speculation anymore."

No it's not, it's certified canon. You just seem to be ignoring it when it fits your purpose.

"Except that it's not. "The nature of the Force was considered to be a constant" because they haven't experienced any strong darkside presence at all and thus didn't know any feeling other than the lightside (hence "constant"😉. That changed when darkness finally made it's way into the galaxy again (likely Plagueis) and so they suddenly sensed darkness IN ADDITION to the light, however nowhere does it say that the lightside actually got weaker."

Which brings upon the question of exactly why the Jedi were so incapacitated. The KOTOR Jedi could sense Dark events in the future as far away as the Outer Rim, and while they were very fuzzy, that is by all accounts in canon no mean feat. Compare this to the Prequel jedi not noticing THE Dark Lord of Dark Lords RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM.

And this is before we get to the fact that their connection WAS in fact weakened.

The PT Order numbered about 10,000 Jedi.

I imagine circa KOTOR that there would be less, what with the Nadd Uprisings, the Droid Revolution, the Beast Wars, the Great Sith War, the Great Hunt, the Mandalorian Wars, etc, all dwindling their numbers.

The Complete Visual Dictionary says the numbers "dwindled" to ten thousand. I'll get you the full quote later.

Originally posted by Autokrat
There are several real world organizations in which the members do nothing but learn fencing and other forms of swordplay. Technically, a few of them are very good. After all, they have "more time to further refine their combat training."

None of them have actually seen real combat which means none of them are prepared for their heartrate skyrocketing or the adrenalin rush which reverts us back to our primitive "midbrain." People in real combat are literally ****ing scared shitless.

That being said, your moronic conclusion that somehow the PT era Jedi are going to be superior swordsman because they had more time to train as opposed to be interrupted by actual saber to saber combat just goes to show that you need to rethink your argument.

Im done wasting my time.

Originally posted by Alistair
You now I've never seen someone getting so riled up over a conclusion over science fiction.

Im done wasting my time.

I'm guessing you don't spend a lot of time on vs boards if you think that was riled up.

Moronic is moronic (Tautology, woot!)

Originally posted by Autokrat
I'm guessing you don't spend a lot of time on vs boards if you think that was riled up.

Moronic is moronic (Tautology, woot!)

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Again, Mace wont he saber duel arguably, and Dooku held the line, but the former would likely have been killed had Sidious not figured it would be more effective for

Anakin to do so, and Dooku knew Yoda's style.

Again, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? Lucas never said. And it almost certainly wasn't regarding their combat acumen or their size, as Geonosis showed.

On average? Certainly. When members of the various Jedi Councils are killed off in the bushelload by non-Jedi non-Force sensitives without anti-Jedi training and who are occasionally the highly disfunctional Battle droids, one does NOT get a sterling impression of their combat record. And this is before we talk about the old lore and the other issues.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Anakin Skywalker was on the Council in name only. Little more. And I don't who they'd lose to. Raskta Lsu was possibly the greatest duelist in the galaxy at the time, the Jedi Temple Battlemaster, and had killed hundreds of Sith Lords on Ruusan. Lord Hoth's kills also numbered in the triple digits and IIRC, so did Farfalla's. Those are merely three that we know of. And as far as the Council during the Great Hunt era, they had to exterminate monsters like leviathans and terentateks, monsters bred specifically to hunt and kill Jedi. Hell, it took the combined efforts of Kyp Durron, Dorsk 82, Streen, and Kirana Ti to finish off the two leviathans on Corbos.

Raskta Lsu = Battlemaster =/= Council but if you want to go that way, we can just as well include Sora Bulq.
Who exactly did Hoth kill? Farfalla was actually so good that he was considered a hinderance by Lsu in their fight against Bane even under the influence of battle meditation.
What information do you have on the Great Hunt era Council? Did they fight those monsters 1on1? 2on1? 5on1? 10on1? Did they fight them at all?

facepalm What do you not understand about 'Jedi Masters began to find that their connection to the Force had become nebulous' and their 'ability to use the Force has diminished'? Jedi connection to the Force during the PT era was weaker than other eras, canonically, and that would lead to the conclusion that on average Jedi of other eras were more powerful than their PT counterparts.

-"Jedi Masters began to find that their connection to the Force had become nebulous"...nebulous=/=weaker; as I said they now felt something mysterious, unknown that they have never felt before, hence "nebulous".
-Their "ability to use the Force has diminished" didn't happen until AotC.

Keyword here: on average. I'm not going to look at the Great Sith War and conclude that every Jedi was on the level of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider. Similarly, you cannot take the absolute pinnacle of PT Jedi power in Yoda and Mace and Anakin (who was born by the Force itself specifically to combat the growing imbalance) and apply it across the board as proof that PT Jedi were TEH BESTEST EVA!!!!!!!!!!!! [/B]

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Yoda and Anakin are difficult to place, but considering that this is an era that is marked by a HELL of a lot of Dark Jedi and that Anakin historically lost to the cocky and tactically undistinguished Dooku, I am sure that sooner or later they would go down. The others died mostly to the clones (and in Shaak Ti's case to a Starkiller/Marek that was certainly well trained but who was comparatively inexperienced to her, as you yourself noted), so I am sure that the numerous Dark Jedi and the Sith's elite Jedi-killing squads (like Atton) could handle them. Again, the key fact you forget is that the KOTOR era has: 1. Advanced Jedi-on-Jedi combat strategies that have been taught to Padawans and Acolytes on both sides of the trenches and which have been continuously refined in the fire of combat. 2. Plenty of the lore that was no longer known by the Prequel era, and perhaps most important of all, 3. Numbers. Simply put, the Jedi and Dark Jedi of this era both number in the several thousand. How big is the Prequel order? Judging from what comments we have, nowhere near as large. Throw enough of them at a target at any given time and you will probably take down anything: Yoda, Revan, Anakin, Obi-Wan, hell, perhaps even Sidious himself.

And I LOVE how you sidestepped the issue of the quality of the AVERAGE Jedi. These people were not average, they were THE ELITE of the Prequel Jedi. And yet most of them were defeated and killed, and only Anakin was defeated by an actual Dark Jedi (Dooku). Why do you not feel like adding them into the calculation, eh?

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
@TH: I'll address your points tomorrow (CET timezone and bedtime over here)[/B]

No it's not, it's certified canon. You just seem to be ignoring it when it fits your purpose.

Which brings upon the question of exactly why the Jedi were so incapacitated. The KOTOR Jedi could sense Dark events in the future as far away as the Outer Rim, and while they were very fuzzy, that is by all accounts in canon no mean feat. Compare this to the Prequel jedi not noticing THE Dark Lord of Dark Lords RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM.

u know, average jedi vs. average jedi, the PT trilogy seems to be pretty darn good compared to say, Bane's era. (and Revan's era)

Johun Othune can't beat a non-force sensitive in hand-to-hand combat. Its even stated he never could.

child Zannah kills two average Jedi with a thought.

The Jedi fall hook-line-and sinker for her trick in framing her ex-friend for the murder of the Farfalla.

4 of the "top Jedi of the era" (and the afore-mentioned Othune) cannot beat one Sith Lord who IS NOT as powerful as Sidious.

One random Jedi gets taken out WITHOUT A FIGHT by the assassin in DOE.

Zannah's friend being promoted to a Jedi Knight when he was completely weak in the force.

Zannah walking the halls of the Jedi Temple with no one suspecting.

Statements are made by Bane in PoD that so many Sith was weakening them all.

Bane fooling the master of the order into destroying himself.

The greatest swordsman of the era, Kas'sim, referring to himself as weak in the force.

Then Revan's era: Three Jedi Senior Council Members are killed in a single drain attack by Kreia.

Nihilus, who is canonically NOT as powerful as Sidious is able to wipe out the entire Jedi Order by himself.

A PADAWAN is one of the most dangerous individuals of the order, apparently, since Bastilla is sent on the mission to capture Revan.

Average Jedi in general are rarely impressive. Pointing out the shortcomings of some of the Jedi of the PT is hardly indicative of the whole.

Originally posted by truejedi
u know, average jedi vs. average jedi, the PT trilogy seems to be pretty darn good compared to say, Bane's era. (and Revan's era)

Johun Othune can't beat a non-force sensitive in hand-to-hand combat. Its even stated he never could.

child Zannah kills two average Jedi with a thought.

The Jedi fall hook-line-and sinker for her trick in framing her ex-friend for the murder of the Farfalla.

4 of the "top Jedi of the era" (and the afore-mentioned Othune) cannot beat one Sith Lord who IS NOT as powerful as Sidious.

One random Jedi gets taken out WITHOUT A FIGHT by the assassin in DOE.

Zannah's friend being promoted to a Jedi Knight when he was completely weak in the force.

Zannah walking the halls of the Jedi Temple with no one suspecting.

Statements are made by Bane in PoD that so many Sith was weakening them all.

Bane fooling the master of the order into destroying himself.

The greatest swordsman of the era, Kas'sim, referring to himself as weak in the force.

Then Revan's era: Three Jedi Senior Council Members are killed in a single drain attack by Kreia.

Nihilus, who is canonically NOT as powerful as Sidious is able to wipe out the entire Jedi Order by himself.

A PADAWAN is one of the most dangerous individuals of the order, apparently, since Bastilla is sent on the mission to capture Revan.

Average Jedi in general are rarely impressive. Pointing out the shortcomings of some of the Jedi of the PT is hardly indicative of the whole.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Even without Anakin they're more than a match for them.

....No, seriously, what am I supposed to come back with to that?

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Raskta Lsu = Battlemaster =/= Council but if you want to go that way, we can just as well include Sora Bulq.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Who exactly did Hoth kill?

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Farfalla was actually so good that he was considered a hinderance by Lsu in their fight against Bane even under the influence of battle meditation.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
What information do you have on the Great Hunt era Council?

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
-"Jedi Masters began to find that their connection to the Force had become nebulous"...nebulous=/=weaker; as I said they now felt something mysterious, unknown that they have never felt before, hence "nebulous".
-Their "ability to use the Force has diminished" didn't happen until AotC.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
That's the point: You cannot be that good if your average contemporaries suck; it's like this in every aspect of life. In sports for example, even if you have immense potential in, say, Basketball and you live in, say, Sweden you will NOT be the best unless you hone your skills in the NBA. Likewise, the strongest Basketball-nation USA has also the best average players.
To put it another way, weak average Jedi cannot spawn such a powerful Jedi council that is more than head and shoulders above any council seen so far.

Originally posted by truejedi
Johun Othune can't beat a non-force sensitive in hand-to-hand combat. Its even stated he never could.

Originally posted by truejedi
4 of the "top Jedi of the era" (and the afore-mentioned Othune) cannot beat one Sith Lord who IS NOT as powerful as Sidious.

Furthermore, Sidious is more powerful than Bane, yes. But Bane amped by the orablisks? You have no way of knowing that. Nor does lightsaber-proof body armor hurt to have in a saber duel against multiple Jedi, so once again you reach. And its getting old at this point.

Originally posted by truejedi
One random Jedi gets taken out WITHOUT A FIGHT by the assassin in DOE.

Originally posted by truejedi
Zannah's friend being promoted to a Jedi Knight when he was completely weak in the force.

Originally posted by truejedi
Nihilus, who is canonically NOT as powerful as Sidious is able to wipe out the entire Jedi Order by himself.

Originally posted by truejedi
A PADAWAN is one of the most dangerous individuals of the order, apparently, since Bastilla is sent on the mission to capture Revan.

Originally posted by Enyalus

NO UR WRONG!!!!!

....No, seriously, what am I supposed to come back with to that?

Except that Sora Bulq wasn't the Jedi Temple's Battlemaster. Cin Drallig was. And Drallig got tooled one-handed by Vader, who doesn't even use a one-handed style.

Hundreds of Sith. Also, toward the end of PoD you get a pretty good idea of his skill when he survives the Sith ambush and kills multiple lightsaber wielding opponents until air reinforcements arrive.

Which, considering Farfalla killed plenty of other Sith at Ruusan, just goes to show you how powerful Bane was (and also Lsu.)

Not much. That's kind of the point. You can't say that X > Y if you don't know the value of Y.

The PT Jedi have many quotes and showings solidifying their place in the Top/High tier and as long as those guys you mentioned don't have anything to them, then they are simply not on the PT level.

facepalm Jesus. You quoted it and you're still ignoring it. Honestly, are you this dense? Pay attention. The quote does not read "Jedi Masters began to find that the Force had become nebulous." It reads that their connection to the Force had become nebulous - IE, uncertain, weaker. Mace's comment in AotC only reinforces this. It was clearly in effect before then. 200 years before then, to approximate.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Apart from the fact that it's a hyperbole, Mace uses the word "inform" meaning that it's news and not something that has dragged on for 200 years.

Your analogy is faulty and your assertion cannot be proven.

Bastila was indeed a prodigy (but still a padawan iirc), Yoda-lite called her strong in the Force and this is further re-inforced throughout teh game by multiple people and he said she'd be a great Jedi, as well as mastering BM so young. Also, and I'm not sure how 'canon' this is, but she mastered alot of darkside powers veeery quickly.

Plus she's a complete badass who lasted a week of solid torture.

If Bastilla really was as uber as she was, which I for the most part agree, then why was she still a padawan, or even a knight?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If Bastilla really was as uber as she was, which I for the most part agree, then why was she still a padawan, or even a knight?

You don't get to be a Master until you successfully train a padawan to a knight. And Bastila was young. That's why she wasn't a master...

As for you, DrunknClockwork, Mace uses the word 'inform' in relation to notifying the Chancellor and the Senate. Which, of course it would be news to them - the Jedi had obviously been keeping their diminishing abilities to themselves. The Episode I Visual Dictionary states, "Now, the Force itself is unbalanced and great change seems imminent."

That's a decade before Mace's comment in AoTC.

Originally posted by Enyalus
KOTOR Campaign Guide lists Bastila as a Jedi Knight.

You don't get to be a Master until you successfully train a padawan to a knight. And Bastila was young. That's why she wasn't a master...