would it really be you or just a copy of your memories and would you even be able of conscious thought?
kinda like the teleportation theory...
you are scanned a copy is made somewhere is and the you in the transporter is deconstructed so that there arent two of you..
more like fancy cloning then teleportation.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosAn "exact copy" makes for an interesting speculation, but technically, "realistically," I don't think it's likely. There'd probably be some degradation, since no copying process would be perfect. How this would manifest itself to others, and especially to the person him/herself, is obviously speculative...though I imagine it would not be too dissimilar from what happens as one ages.
What's the difference between you and an exact copy of you?
Personally, I wouldn't do the upload, as I don't believe all of the psyche is contained within the brain, even sans an immaterial component. Call it a "metacellular mind," if you will.
Originally posted by Mindship
An "exact copy" makes for an interesting speculation, but technically, "realistically," I don't think it's likely. There'd probably be some degradation, since no copying process would be perfect.
Well, no efficient copying process would be perfect. Certainly if you have the time and knowledge there's no reason (in a reductionist universe) that you can't make a copy that is so close to perfect it not longer matters.
Chaotic effects from slight changes would be hard to notice, too. The sheer scale of changes other than to your mind would overshadow those completely.
Originally posted by Mindship
Personally, I wouldn't do the upload, as I don't believe all of the psyche is contained within the brain, even sans an immaterial component. Call it a "metacellular mind," if you will.
I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you think the idea involves ignoring how neurons interact with each other.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosIf the tech is sophisticated enough, I'm sure we could fabricate close-enough personality clones (at least, I'd hope so, especially if this tech went commercial). But I imagine that repeated copying (eg, you lease a new android body every two years) would compound imperfections.
Well, no efficient copying process would be perfect. Certainly if you have the time and knowledge there's no reason (in a reductionist universe) that you can't make a copy that is so close to perfect it not longer matters.Chaotic effects from slight changes would be hard to notice, too. The sheer scale of changes other than to your mind would overshadow those completely.
This is all speculation, of course. I suppose such a tech-capable society might impose a limit to how many times one could copy.
H'm. I think I feel a short story coming on.
I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you think the idea involves ignoring how neurons interact with each other.Just the opposite: a synergistic effect, beginning with the base awareness of every cell, not just neurons; a bottom-up construct of consciousness culminating in the neocortex.
Essentially, one's awareness reflects the hierarchal totality of one's physical being. It's just most "highlighted" in the brain.
Originally posted by Mindship
If the tech is sophisticated enough, I'm sure we could fabricate close-enough personality clones (at least, I'd hope so, especially if this tech went commercial). But I imagine that repeated copying (eg, you lease a new android body every two years) would compound imperfections.This is all speculation, of course. I suppose such a tech-capable society might impose a limit to how many times one could copy.
H'm. I think I feel a short story coming on.
Why would you have to get a whole new body and brain so often? One of the benefits of being a robot brain is that if they body breaks you can be physically removed and put in a new one.
Originally posted by Mindship
Just the opposite: a synergistic effect, beginning with the base awareness of every cell, not just neurons; a bottom-up construct of consciousness culminating in the neocortex.Essentially, one's awareness reflects the hierarchal totality of one's physical being. It's just most "highlighted" in the brain.
I don't know of any reason to think awareness rises from outside the brain. Even so, the proposed brain uploading culture is already copying cells if there's a problem they can just copy the rest of your cells.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosI'm thinking Orion's Arm stuff: people copying themselves into new virtual/cybernetic environments. If the tech ever got that good, where everyone could upload themselves as easily as we now drive cars, it could even become...fashionable to change, certainly to push the limits.
Why would you have to get a whole new body and brain so often? One of the benefits of being a robot brain is that if they body breaks you can be physically removed and put in a new one.
I don't know of any reason to think awareness rises from outside the brain. Even so, the proposed brain uploading culture is already copying cells if there's a problem they can just copy the rest of your cells.Not from outside the brain, but from before it, and involving awareness in the broadest sense.
The "engrams" of human personality, uploaded into a computer, could then rest on artificial senses or even a new biological body, sure. But neither would have the experience of the original metacellular or bodymind, which, in part, defined who I am.
I'm not sure what the real ramifications might be, separating the egoic mind from the body-unconscious. I suppose the first brain transplant would give us some insight.
Originally posted by Mindship
I'm thinking Orion's Arm stuff: people copying themselves into new virtual/cybernetic environments. If the tech ever got that good, where everyone could upload themselves as easily as we now drive cars, it could even become...fashionable to change, certainly to push the limits.
I think OA just assumes the process can be made lossless. If it wasn't, if copying decayed your mind noticeably after a few jumps I don't see it coming into fashion unless people don't notice.
Originally posted by Mindship
Not from outside the brain, but from before it, and involving awareness in the broadest sense.
I don't see how the brain's past is very important, except in that it is how it got to the current state.
The 8 at the end of 5+3=8 isn't any different from an 8 I write for some other reason.
Originally posted by Mindship
The "engrams" of human personality, uploaded into a computer, could then rest on artificial senses or even a new biological body, sure. But neither would have the experience of the original metacellular or bodymind, which, in part, defined who I am.
But cells die and get replaced. The body you have right now is completely different (except for the brain) from what you had ten years ago.
In the book "John Dies at the End" this problem is addressed, I really like the way it is said here:
Solving the following riddle will reveal the awful secret behind the universe, assuming you do not go utterly mad in the attempt. If you already happen to know the awful secret behind the universe, feel free to skip ahead.
Let’s say you have an ax. Just a cheap one, from Home Depot. On one bitter Winter day, you use said ax to behead a man. Don’t worry, the man was already dead. Or maybe you should worry, because you’re the one who shot him.
He had been a big, twitchy guy with veiny skin stretched over swollen biceps, a tattoo of a swastika on his tongue. Teeth filed into razor-sharp fangs — you know the type. And you’re chopping off his head because, even with eight bullet holes in him, you’re pretty sure he’s about to spring back to his feet and eat the look of terror right off your face.
On the follow-through of the last swing, though, the handle of the ax snaps in a spray of splinters. You now have a broken ax. So, after a long night of looking for a place to dump the man and his head, you take a trip into town with your ax. You go to the hardware store, explaining away the dark reddish stains on the broken handle as barbecue sauce. You walk out with a brand new handle for your ax.
The repaired ax sits undisturbed in your garage until the Spring when, on one rainy morning, you find in your kitchen a certain creature that appears to be a foot-long slug with a bulging egg sac on its tail. Its jaws bite one of your forks in half with what seems like very little effort. You grab our trusty ax and chop the thing into several pieces. On the last blow, however, the ax strikes a metal leg of the overturned kitchen table and chips out a notch right in the middle of the blade.
Of course, a chipped head means yet another trip to the hardware store. They sell you a brand new head for your ax. As soon as you get home, you meet the reanimated body of the guy you beheaded earlier. He’s also got a new head, stitched on with what looks like plastic weed-trimmer line, and it’s wearing that unique expression of “you’re the man who killed me last Winter” resentment that one so rarely encounters in everyday life.
You brandish your ax. The guy takes a long look at the weapon with his squishy, rotting eyes and in a gargly voice he screams, “That’s the same ax that beheaded me!”
IS HE RIGHT?
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosThat's what I'm saying: how it got there is important, not just from a bio perspective, from a psych one as well.
I don't see how the brain's past is very important, except in that it is how it got to the current state.
But cells die and get replaced. The body you have right now is completely different (except for the brain) from what you had ten years ago.The software is the constant, the cellular activity.
Originally posted by Mindship
That's what I'm saying: how it got there is important, not just from a bio perspective, from a psych one as well.
Well it's interesting but I don't see it as very important once you can make a facsimile of a mind.
As a thought experiment:
I build an AI, let it run for a year and continuously alter itself. After that year I pause its program and write an exact copy of the AI (the current program, the stored memories, everything) on a separate computer. There's no reason to think they won't be exactly the same.
Originally posted by Mindship
The software is the constant, the cellular activity.
That would be the hardware (soft though it may be).
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosWith an AI I could see that.
Well it's interesting but I don't see it as very important once you can make a facsimile of a mind.As a thought experiment:
I build an AI, let it run for a year and continuously alter itself. After that year I pause its program and write an exact copy of the AI (the current program, the stored memories, everything) on a separate computer. There's no reason to think they won't be exactly the same.
That would be the hardware (soft though it may be).It's what the hardware is doing though. Any individual cell is only a snapshot of the synergistic activity cells do, generation after generation, to give rise to the physical and experiential aspects of human being.
the process would only work if areas of the brain were slowly replaced by computer parts designed to behave generally identically to your organic brain, in many stages. From a plasticity standpoint, it is arguable that such a process would be impossible, but you can't rule out where technology will bring us.
I wouldn't bet on it being in our lifetime though. We will have some types of cortical/neural "chips" that might enhance, repair, etc, some of our normal functions, but I doubt we will be seeing the wholesale conversion of brain into computer anytime soon, if at all.
Though, because the person we experience ourselves as being is based, demonstrably, on patterns of neuronal activation, there is no reason that copying should degrade the self at all so long as it is reproduced. The organic brain is full of redundencies anyways, so even a marginally imperfect copy may be no different in a practical sense.