Atheism

Originally posted by Digi
I thought you were joking. I don't mind taking you up on the challenge, but I prefer to save my efforts for those who are being serious, not doing it for the lulz. My time on KMC is far more limited than it once was...I have to choose my battles.

Originally posted by long pig
I'm not serious when it comes to being a bible thumping jackass. But I am totally serious when it comes to knowing the text itself. Getting a doctorate in theology usually requires such. I wasted 12 years studying to become a preacher like my father. I know the book better than anyone you've ever met. Fluent in hebrew, I read greek and my aramaic ain't too bad either. Seriously, give me all these examples of biblical contradictions, god's evilness etc. You won't find any. But no, im no longer a believer.

If this belief system is as perfect as you claim it to be, then this former belief system of yours should be the 'universal religion'.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well "Is death the end or not" is a valid and interesting questions. However it is not a question that has as answer atheism, theism or agnosticism (or others).

Originally posted by Mindship
Certainly nothing definitive. However, I would say some perspectives offer better guesses than others, with atheism -- or better yet, materialism -- being at the top. Following (IMO) would be the meditation traditions, since they offer some form of investigative methodology (especially Zen); in last place would be those perspectives pushing literal interpretations of dogma.

I'd probably agree with that...

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Black and homosexual groups cannot really be compared here at all. Being black or homosexual isn't an ideology one can adapt or discard at will.

Furthermore, the many particular ideologies adopted by black rights organizations, such as integration, separatism, peacefull reform, violent revolution, etc. can, in fact, be adopted or discarded at will and the same goes for the partiular ideologies spoused by gay rights advocacy groups. Bottomline is that being gay or being black is not what defines the lobbying militancy for the rights of such groups, their ideological beliefs are. The fact that the underlying conditions (gay, black skin or african descent) upon which their identity politics stem from are immutable (unlike atheism) doesn't change the fact that waht defines them are ideological beliefs, not the conditions themselves.

If we read their mission statement it clearly states -

AAI'S VISION
AAI's vision is to transform society into one that supports and respects a worldview based on the values of reason, empiricism and naturalism, and respects and protects the separation of religion and government. (Adopted Jan. 2009)

AAI'S MISSION
To develop and provide educational, advocacy, and community-building programs for the atheist community that assist towards fulfilling the above vision.

There is a goal and a mission statement - and those include promoting, spreading and influencing atheist ideology in order to transform a society or societies. It seeks influence, just like theism does.
In order to have your atheist group join you must function democratically - so there are universal values attached to this, and one of those is democracy, for example.

Yes the AA is an organization with an ideology more akin to a political party than to a religious organiziation, but more importantly, their ideology is not shared by atheists as a whole and has nothing to do with what defines an atheist. Disbelief in god doesnt even imply acceptance of a materialistis or naturalistic worldview, let alone the ideological belief in their promotion in society. Atheists have no shared belief other than disbelief in God.

Likewise, theism isn't a system of beliefs or an organization either, it is a single belief shared by a lot of people, some of which have created organizations rooted arround a lot more crap than just believing or not in God.

An atheist not belonging to any atheistic group, is much like Christian not belonging to a church, or Jewish person not being part of Synagogue.
Those same Christians and Jews cannot equally claim that neither Judaism nor Christianity are organised.

I am NOT claiming atheism is a religion - I am claiming it is an ideology and that it is organised.

hum... the problem is that being a christian or a jew in the religious sense involves a lot more religious, moral and ideological beliefs than just believing or not in God. So they are still belief systems while theism and atheism by themselves aren't.

Besides, the overheliming majority of christians are at least nominally afilliated with some organized sect while only a very small minority of atheists are affiliated with atheist organizations and most aren't even aware of them.

Originally posted by long pig
I'm not serious when it comes to being a bible thumping jackass. But I am totally serious when it comes to knowing the text itself. Getting a doctorate in theology usually requires such. I wasted 12 years studying to become a preacher like my father. I know the book better than anyone you've ever met. Fluent in hebrew, I read greek and my aramaic ain't too bad either. Seriously, give me all these examples of biblical contradictions, god's evilness etc. You won't find any. But no, im no longer a believer.

Well then we're probably working with different concepts of evil. Some of the asinine rules and sacrifices laid out in the Old Testament I would indeed consider evil. Some came from the mouth of God, literally, in the stories, others are merely related by others (though the entire Bible is supposedly the Word of God).

Because if you're not seeing the particulars about condoning slavery, abhoring certain eating habits, lifestyles, etc. and the punishments of such "sins" then I wonder which book you're reading.

I'm curious why you aren't a beliver though. Even if some of it was in jest, you've played the apologist.

how good is your aramaic though?

Originally posted by inimalist
how good is your aramaic though?

Talking about pointless languages, how's your study of Arabic advancing?

Originally posted by inimalist
thats exactly the point though. Atheists could have such a wide variety of beliefs that there is no reason to think atheism proper is a belief system.

You could argue theres enough consistency for it to be considered as such.

Originally posted by inimalist

not really. There are contensious issues within each system, but fundamentally, there is agreement on core issues. Whether or not morality is subjective, in most systems of belief, is pretty fundamental.

No theres disagreement on core issues eg Islam has 5 pillars and muslims disagree on this.

Originally posted by inimalist

well, yes, it would have to be, unless you are saying that the individual belief system of each individual atheist represents its own individual atheist "belief system", in which case, the prefix "atheist" becomes a useless distinction.

Doesn't need to be written down. You might be able to get books on how to rap now but there was always a system that enabled you to rap even when books where not written. Celts had no formal training on how to fight they still had a fighting system. Being written down is not essential.

Originally posted by inimalist

Like, think about belief systems as a constelation of individual beliefs. Sym, bardock and I will have some of these in common, but certainly not all, and few other than "god doesn't exist" with regard to religion (it would be much more informative to describe the overlap in our personal belief systems through socio-political terms, rather than "atheism"😉. You and I would have overlap between individual beliefs. However this does not mean we share an entire system of beliefs.

Now, of course, there could be argument about how much, or which beliefs in particular, need to overlap to form a belief system, but in terms of atheism, the only given is "God doesn't exist", clearly not enough for it to be a system in itself

No its isn't but I'm saying that you can have a belief system steming from there is no god, the same way you can have a belief system steming from there is a god.

Originally posted by inimalist

yes, I mentioned this in my first reply to you

"theism" and "atheism" are not belief systems.

K

Originally posted by Deadline
You could argue theres enough consistency for it to be considered as such.

Hmm, I'd like you to explain what beliefs you think are associated with atheism (besides no God and everything that follows from that, like God didn't create the universe, God didn't rain fire on Sodom, etc.) that most atheists consistently have to believe to be considered atheists.

Originally posted by Deadline
No theres disagreement on core issues eg Islam has 5 pillars and muslims disagree on this.

This is why I (as perhaps opposed to inimalist (though I wouldn't bet on it) who you replied to, lol) am talking about that you have to go into denominations to get larger amounts of aggrement on certain issues. While "Muslims" all around the world will have a couple of beliefs in common, there will still be differences amongst them. As there are differences between any individual realy.

Originally posted by Deadline
Doesn't need to be written down. You might be able to get books on how to rap now but there was always a system that enabled you to rap even when books where not written. Celts had no formal training on how to fight they still had a fighting system. Being written down is not essential.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Deadline
No its isn't but I'm saying that you can have a belief system steming from there is no god, the same way you can have a belief system steming from there is a god.

Yes. But "There is no God" (i.e. atheism) is not a belief system in itself. Communism is one that often incorporates atheism (though it doesn't stem from it)

Originally posted by Deadline
You could argue theres enough consistency for it to be considered as such.

that really isn't true though. I have to go with bardock here, what is it exactly that you think all atheists HAVE to agree on aside from a disbelief in God?

Originally posted by Deadline
No theres disagreement on core issues eg Islam has 5 pillars and muslims disagree on this.

can you link to what you are talking about?

Originally posted by Deadline
Doesn't need to be written down. You might be able to get books on how to rap now but there was always a system that enabled you to rap even when books where not written. Celts had no formal training on how to fight they still had a fighting system. Being written down is not essential.

so?

Originally posted by Deadline
No its isn't but I'm saying that you can have a belief system steming from there is no god, the same way you can have a belief system steming from there is a god.

yes, and that belief system wouldn't be "atheism", atheism would be a component of that belief system

I could formulate a belief system based on the fact that I like coffee, that doesn't mean liking coffee itself is a belief system

Sym's point about a sink not being a plumbing system is probably the best on this matter.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Talking about pointless languages, how's your study of Arabic advancing?

I gave it up after 3 semesters. I just didn't have the time to learn it properly.

Originally posted by inimalist
I gave it up after 3 semesters. I just didn't have the time to learn it properly.

Ah, bummer. Seems like a very interesting language.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Ah, bummer. Seems like a very interesting language.

it is, and i still intend to go back to it, just trying to juggle that, lab work, and a major in a totally different area of study didn't work too well

for me at least, I am going to need to spend more time with immersion to learn it, and just flipping through kids books, or looking up vocab to write little skits wasn't enough. I could learn it a bit like any other subject, ie - memorize, concepts, that sort of thing, but in terms of understanding and thinking in arabic, i never got that far

Originally posted by Bardock42
Hmm, I'd like you to explain what beliefs you think are associated with atheism (besides no God and everything that follows from that, like God didn't create the universe, God didn't rain fire on Sodom, etc.) that most atheists consistently have to believe to be considered atheists.

actually, if we want to deconstruct, even just a disbelief in God doesn't qualify one as an atheist (arguably at least)

for instance, like we were talking about before, Shakey doesn't believe in a specific god, but doesn't call himself an atheist

or myself, I don't consider myself an atheist in any meaningful way, though this is more arguable...

Originally posted by inimalist
actually, if we want to deconstruct, even just a disbelief in God doesn't qualify one as an atheist (arguably at least)

for instance, like we were talking about before, Shakey doesn't believe in a specific god, but doesn't call himself an atheist

or myself, I don't consider myself an atheist in any meaningful way, though this is more arguable...

Well, yeah, but using even to that more strong definition of atheism I can't quite see his point. As we agree of course.

And I often just consider myself agnostic (also in a weak way, as I don't think it is unknowable necessarily) but I think that falls kinda into atheism, as I definitely do not positively believe in a god.

Originally posted by inimalist
it is, and i still intend to go back to it, just trying to juggle that, lab work, and a major in a totally different area of study didn't work too well

for me at least, I am going to need to spend more time with immersion to learn it, and just flipping through kids books, or looking up vocab to write little skits wasn't enough. I could learn it a bit like any other subject, ie - memorize, concepts, that sort of thing, but in terms of understanding and thinking in arabic, i never got that far

Yeah, that's very true, you need to have immersion to get fluent in a language (well maybe you don't need it, but it's a great stepping stone)

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, yeah, but using even to that more strong definition of atheism I can't quite see his point. As we agree of course.

And I often just consider myself agnostic (also in a weak way, as I don't think it is unknowable necessarily) but I think that falls kinda into atheism, as I definitely do not positively believe in a god.

Agnostic would be the more accurate term, I think."Atheist", in everyday speech, typically has a strong conotation. Like a strong disblelief where you're positively certain there's no god.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Yeah, that's very true, you need to have immersion to get fluent in a language (well maybe you don't need it, but it's a great stepping stone)

I picked up alot of Arabic when I was in the military. I thought Arabic, German and Japanese were all easy to learn. But for some reason Korean was harder and didn't really stick with me.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Agnostic would be the more accurate term, I think."Atheist", in everyday speech, typically has a strong conotation. Like a strong disblelief where you're positively certain there's no god.

I picked up alot of Arabic when I was in the military. I thought Arabic, German and Japanese were all easy to learn. But for some reason Korean was harder and didn't really stick with me.

Perhaps, I am as close to positively certain that there's no Christian God though as I can possibly get...so in many conversations atheist may be the more accurate term.

Hmm, that's weird, well German shouldn't be too hard as English and German are closely related. Spanish is supposed to be one of the easiest languages to learn for German speakers, too so perhaps that goes both ways. I find Japanese not too hard in grammar and vocabulary, but the writing system is very hard. I don't have personal experience with Korean and Arabic, but I am pretty sure that Arabic is often considered rather hard for English speakers. Do you still have knowledge of the languages? How far did you get in studying them?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Perhaps, I am as close to positively certain that there's no Christian God though as I can possibly get...so in many conversations atheist may be the more accurate term.

Hmm, that's weird, well German shouldn't be too hard as English and German are closely related. Spanish is supposed to be one of the easiest languages to learn for German speakers, too so perhaps that goes both ways. I find Japanese not too hard in grammar and vocabulary, but the writing system is very hard. I don't have personal experience with Korean and Arabic, but I am pretty sure that Arabic is often considered rather hard for English speakers. Do you still have knowledge of the languages? How far did you get in studying them?

Oh, I still remember everything I learned. I was never formally "taught" any of them (as in a classroom or with a teacher). I recieved a brief introduction to the local language in our solder's handbook when I got stationed somewhere which covered the basics, and then the rest was all from interacting with the locals. Maybe I'm just naturally good with languages. But I noticed that the other Hispanics also tended to learn languages faster than the monolingual white and black soldiers who only knew Enlgish.

Korean was different. It has a lot of weird suffixes and conditions that depend on tense and context. Also, the verbs were kinda hard. But then I learned a bit more Korean after I got out of the service. I did Taekwondo for like 3 years, and all the commands were in Korean, so were the names for all the moves, clothing and other relevant terms. But all that did was increase my vocabulary; I never really got better with grammar.

A while back someone brought up discrimination toward atheists, and I had meant to address it. While I'm not yet ready to do so just yet, I thought I'd get the ball rolling for others to offer their thoughts.

...

When someone mentions discrimination in reference to a particular ethnic, cultural, or religious group, I usually find the specificity of the claim lacking because they speak in general terms. To me, there are two measures of discrimination: intensity and prevalence (other names could be found, these are my own). Which is why metaphoric internet arms fly up in protest at a statement like "atheists are more discriminated against than blacks." Well, that's completely false if we're talking about intensity. The historical and current racism African-Americans can be subject to from some is scary.

However, if we gauge the statement in terms of prevalence, it suddenly becomes defensible (though debatable). I'd argue that if everyone in the country were polled on "Do you trust {insert group}?" (or similar inquiry) that fewer people would trust atheists than blacks, and the margin might not even be close. It is just as widespread, imo, even if the severity of mistrust is lower.

So we have two different starting points, and I think it's important to make sure we know which is which. And I only use black Americans as a reference because they are the most well-known minority group, not because I wish to directly link them with atheism.

....

That's the crux of the intro to my thoughts on atheist discrimination. I'd be interested to see what others think (on their own or in relation to my ideas) before posting more.

Originally posted by inimalist
that really isn't true though. I have to go with bardock here, what is it exactly that you think all atheists HAVE to agree on aside from a disbelief in God?

Its is though. You may have heard the story about a Jewish man in a Nazi concentration camp. He asked God to help him but because nothing happened he stopped believing in God. There are lots of people like that, maybe soimething traumatic happened to them so they don't believe in God and they don't give a **** about life. There lack of belief in God will affect everything they do in life. They may decide to basically get high and get drunk because they don't see the point in life or not having serious relationships. Now I'm not saying that this is right or all atheists think like that but atheists like that do exist and that is a belief system.

Originally posted by inimalist

can you link to what you are talking about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam

There you go. See how Sunnis and Shia disagree on the fundamentals.

Originally posted by inimalist

so?

Im' pointing out that just because something isn't written doesn't mean its not a system. Some things are informal and unofficial.

Originally posted by inimalist

yes, and that belief system wouldn't be "atheism", atheism would be a component of that belief system

I could formulate a belief system based on the fact that I like coffee, that doesn't mean liking coffee itself is a belief system

Sym's point about a sink not being a plumbing system is probably the best on this matter.

I know. My point isn't that atheism is a belief system. My point is that you can have an atheistic belief system.