Atheism

Originally posted by King Kandy
What can I possibly be meant to take from this line other than "not believing in god is a belief system that makes you act depressed"?

What do you think this bit of my post implies?

Originally posted by Deadline
Now I'm not saying that this is right or all atheists think like that but atheists like that do exist and that is a belief system.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You said he was depressed because he didn't believe in god and ignored that he was in a concentration camp, something that makes a lot of people depressed.

Of course hes depressed because hes in a concentration camp but hes also depressed because God didn't save him. Which is why hes an atheist. I didn't ignore anything thats something you made up.

Originally posted by Deadline
Of course hes depressed because hes in a concentration camp but hes also depressed because God didn't save him. Which is why hes an atheist. I didn't ignore anything thats something you made up.

To me the atheism seems like a very minor factor compared to the knowledge that the Nazis are going to work him to death and kill untold numbers of people.

Also, wait a second, how can he be depressed that God didn't save him and be an atheist?

Originally posted by Deadline
What do you think this bit of my post implies?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
To me the atheism seems like a very minor factor compared to the knowledge that the Nazis are going to work him to death and kill untold numbers of people.

Its an important factor because God is the one that could have saved him.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

Also, wait a second, how can he be depressed that God didn't save him and be an atheist?

He asked God to save him and because God didn't save him he thought God didn't exist.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It implies that you don't know what you're talking about. Just because there was an atheist, and he was depressed, doesn't mean it's a "belief system".

Of course it does. Considering you completely took what I said out of context when you first came into this thread its obvious you're going to take that view.

Even if you don't like the concentration camp example pick something more trivial. A person asks God for certain things and because they don't happen they don't believe in God, this disbelief in God may make them act in certain ways and this can vary from individual. Some people maybe more positive some more negative and all can be traced back to their disbelief in God.

Originally posted by Deadline
Even if you don't like the concentration camp example pick something more trivial. A person asks God for certain things and because they don't happen they don't believe in God, this disbelief in God may make them act in certain ways and this can vary from individual. Some people maybe more positive some more negative and all can be traced back to their disbelief in God.

That's not a belief system though in the way that communism is or that Islam is or that Buddhism is. It's just the whole of an individuals belief some perhaps caused by logical derivation of other believes. I suppose you could call it a belief system, but you would not be talking about the same thing. And it's definitely not an Atheist belief system, it's an individual "belief system" incorporating atheism.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's not a belief system though in the way that communism is or that Islam is or that Buddhism is.

Its different from those you mentioned but its still a belief system. The difference is that those ones are more detailed just because they are more detailed doesn't change anything.

Originally posted by Bardock42

It's just the whole of an individuals belief some perhaps caused by logical derivation of other believes.

Its not the whole of an individual belief. He doesn't believe in God and therefore hes going to act in a certain way. The root of the belief system is the disbelief in God the other beliefs are how hes going to behave. Muslims believe in God and because they believe in God that makes them behave in a certain way its the samething except it has more detail and its written down.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I suppose you could call it a belief system, but you would not be talking about the same thing. And it's definitely not an Atheist belief system, it's an individual "belief system" incorporating atheism.

Its an individual belief system but its still a system. Yes it incorporates atheism but the reason why its an athiestic belief system because everything stems from them not believing in God. I thought that was why Islam is considered to be a theistic belief system because an important part is God.

Originally posted by Deadline
Its different from those you mentioned but its still a belief system. The difference is that those ones are more detailed just because they are more detailed doesn't change anything.

No, the difference is that one is institutionalized and well defined, while the other is just whatever a person believes in. They are not the same thing at all, they are both called a belief system. It's basically a homonym and you can't base a comparison on that. It's like saying happy people and homosexual people are the same group.

Originally posted by Deadline
Its not the whole of an individual belief. He doesn't believe in God and therefore hes going to act in a certain way. The root of the belief system is the disbelief in God the other beliefs are how hes going to behave. Muslims believe in God and because they believe in God that makes them behave in a certain way its the samething except it has more detail and its written down.

That's what we said, an individual can draw certain conclusions from their atheism. However it's not the same thing as a Religion or Ideology.

Originally posted by Deadline
Its an individual belief system but its still a system. Yes it incorporates atheism but the reason why its an athiestic belief system because everything stems from them not believing in God. I thought that was why Islam is considered to be a theistic belief system because an important part is God.

Again, you are applying different words that are spelled the same. However you made a good point here, that you are only talking about atheistic belief systems. As most on my side of this argument would likely agree, there is no reason why there can't be an atheistic belief system, that's not been the argument though, what we've been saying from the start is that atheism is not a belief system, and we've been arguing that because this was your initial claim:

Originally posted by Deadline
Its like this, people have said that Theism is a belief system because believing in god leads to other beliefs and actions eg heaven, hell, judgement etc. You could say the same thing for Atheism no afterlife, no judgement etc.

Of course theism isn't a belief system either, so I suppose the argument was flawed from the start.

So to sum up, atheism is not a belief system. Certain belief systems can however have atheist parts or even found themselves on a belief in atheism, however the point seems trivial.

Originally posted by Deadline
Sometimes I use words incorrectly. Substitute the word group for the correct defintion.

You were arguing that within religons or sects they don't disagree on core issues. What I'm saying to you is that this was your initial point I think its incorrect due to reasons given and I don't see how pointing out that disagreements causing splits furthers your initial point.

oh, is that what I meant? thanks for clarifying

Originally posted by inimalist
oh, is that what I meant? thanks for clarifying

Does that post sound like I was trying to be condersending. I'm just stating what I thought you said. You said that more or less they agreed on core issues. Whats the problem here?

Originally posted by Deadline
Does that post sound like I was trying to be condersending. I'm just stating what I thought you said. You said that more or less they agreed on core issues. Whats the problem here?

He explained that he meant for specific belief systems. You can't choose any huge set and have them agree on everything.

All Christians may agree on God existing, creating the universe, having an afterlife

All Protestants (as in everyone not Catholic or Orthodox) may agree, that the pope is just a man not a speaker for God, that you have to accept Jesus as your saviour, etc.

All Baptists may agree that scripture is the only rule of faith and adult baptisms

All Westboro Baptists may agree that god hates america and that sweden sucks.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, the difference is that one is institutionalized and well defined, while the other is just whatever a person believes in.

I'm well aware of that and that was actually one of the points I've been making. My point is just because its not institutionalized and well defined doesn't mean that its not a system. My point is its an unoffical system. The person hasn't sat down and thought about it as a belief system but you could actually draw a diagram of his beliefs the same way you do with a religon, the difference is that the diagram for a religon would be bigger and everybody knows about the religon. After the diagram is drawn you could identify it as a belief system, thats why I think its a belief system. You don't have to be fully aware of something for it to exist. People have systems for all sorts of things but sometimes they aren't just fully aware of it.

Essentially all you need to have for a system is to have parts that are connected and thats what you have for the people I mentioned.

Originally posted by Bardock42

They are not the same thing at all, they are both called a belief system. It's basically a homonym and you can't base a comparison on that. It's like saying happy people and homosexual people are the same group.

I don't agree because of the reason I gave above.

Originally posted by Bardock42

That's what we said, an individual can draw certain conclusions from their atheism. However it's not the same thing as a Religion or Ideology.

I think it can be because of the reasons given already.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Again, you are applying different words that are spelled the same. However you made a good point here, that you are only talking about atheistic belief systems. As most on my side of this argument would likely agree, there is no reason why there can't be an atheistic belief system, that's not been the argument though, what we've been saying from the start is that atheism is not a belief system, and we've been arguing that because this was your initial claim:

Then clearly there seems to be a misunderstanding. That initial claim doesn't apply because it became apparent to me very early on people were not trying to do that. That statement doesn't apply anymore.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Of course theism isn't a belief system either, so I suppose the argument was flawed from the start.

Thats not my argument though is it? I ditched that argument 100 years ago.

Originally posted by Bardock42

So to sum up, atheism is not a belief system. Certain belief systems can however have atheist parts or even found themselves on a belief in atheism, however the point seems trivial.

I know atheism isn't a belief system and I know that theism isn't a belief system. I know that but people seem to keep repeating that to me over and over again when I have clearly stated I agree and understand.

Originally posted by Deadline
Does that post sound like I was trying to be condersending.

no

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm just stating what I thought you said. You said that more or less they agreed on core issues. Whats the problem here?

you've completely misinterpreted what I said

I really don't see how you could get "All muslims must believe the same thing" from what I said

Originally posted by inimalist
no

you've completely misinterpreted what I said

I really don't see how you could get "All muslims must believe the same thing" from what I said

I didn't and I didn't say you said that. I said you said muslims more or less agree on core issues eg God afterlife etc. Thats not me stating that you said they all must believe the same thing. What I'm saying is that there are alot more core issues and alot of disagreements on what these are. You described these as contentious (less important) I'm saying there are alot which are not contentious but are core.

Originally posted by Deadline
I said you said muslims more or less agree on core issues eg God afterlife etc.

ok, I didn't say that

I said religious groups. I don't consider all Muslims to belong to the same religious group.

Hell, within groups like the Salafis or Baptists, there are huge differences even just geographically. Being a Sunni Muslim in Pakistan is very different from being one in Saudi Arabia.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm well aware of that and that was actually one of the points I've been making. My point is just because its not institutionalized and well defined doesn't mean that its not a system. My point is its an unoffical system. The person hasn't sat down and thought about it as a belief system but you could actually draw a diagram of his beliefs the same way you do with a religon, the difference is that the diagram for a religon would be bigger and everybody knows about the religon. After the diagram is drawn you could identify it as a belief system, thats why I think its a belief system. You don't have to be fully aware of something for it to exist. People have systems for all sorts of things but sometimes they aren't just fully aware of it.

Essentially all you need to have for a system is to have parts that are connected and thats what you have for the people I mentioned.

I don't agree because of the reason I gave above.

I think it can be because of the reasons given already.

Then clearly there seems to be a misunderstanding. That initial claim doesn't apply because it became apparent to me very early on people were not trying to do that. That statement doesn't apply anymore.

Thats not my argument though is it? I ditched that argument 100 years ago.

I know atheism isn't a belief system and I know that theism isn't a belief system. I know that but people seem to keep repeating that to me over and over again when I have clearly stated I agree and understand.

Well, I don't see why we are arguing then. The fact that one could potentially have an atheist belief system is nothing, the examples you've given are different though, like I said, but there's no reason why there couldn't be a belief system based on atheism and that has been pointed out multiple times during the argument.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, I didn't say that

I said [b]religious groups. I don't consider all Muslims to belong to the same religious group.

Hell, within groups like the Salafis or Baptists, there are huge differences even just geographically. Being a Sunni Muslim in Pakistan is very different from being one in Saudi Arabia. [/B]

My bad I get you.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I don't see why we are arguing then.

Thats all that needs to be said really.

Originally posted by Bardock42

The fact that one could potentially have an atheist belief system is nothing, the examples you've given are different though, like I said,

Yes I know they are different we both understand that point and theres no need to mention it again. As we both agree they potentially have atheistic belief systems. My point is just because its not official doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Not being fully aware of something does not neccesarily mean that thing/concept/system does not exist.

Originally posted by Bardock42

but there's no reason why there couldn't be a belief system based on atheism and that has been pointed out multiple times during the argument.

Feel free to point out something I've already understood and I agree on.

Originally posted by Digi

condoning slavery, abhoring certain eating habits, lifestyles, etc. and the punishments of such "sins" then I wonder which book you're reading.

Is there a word for slave in hebrew that's not servant?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Is there a word for slave in hebrew that's not servant?

Not that I'm aware of.

It could be a case of the hebrew language lacking an extensive vocabulary and we end up with one word that is similar to 3-5 of our own words...so we end up with translation issues...which has happened a lot and I mean A LOT.