Originally posted by Gideon
kThis is not conclusive proof that Palpatine was disarmed, so I don't know what needs to be addressed here.
😐
We watched two different movies, then, because nowhere was it shown that Palpatine departed by the time that Yoda left. In fact, as we see from the movie and novelization, Palpatine remained in the Rotunda while Yoda fled; the movie shows Palpatine still cackling and dangling from the pod as Yoda gets to his feet at the very bottom.
Sorry, but Sidious didn't leave; Yoda did.
?
The Senate Building was presumably filled with stormtroopers and security personnel; what's important here is that it has been asserted that Yoda fled because stormtroopers were on their way. There has been no evidence provided to conclude that they were.
Again, there are times when blanks need to be filled in when things aren't all spelled out in black and white. We can then draw logically assumptions on how to fill in the blanks. This is exactly what is going on here…. You left off my quote where I mentioned how Yoda looked UP after he had fallen to the ground. By looking up and then walking away, one can logically assume the Emperor was now gone. Why? Because Yoda was there to kill the emperor.. he wasn't there to stroll through the senate chamber. In an earlier scene, when Yoda was on the low ground, he manage to make his way back up to the emperor to engage him again. Yet, now you're claiming that Yoda looked up, saw a dangling emperor, and decided to leave? Huh? That makes zero logically sense. What makes more sense is he looked up.. saw the emperor was gone, and knew he had failed. Then what would emperor do, or anyone really, once they have escaped from battling a tough foe.. call on your troops to deal with it the first chance you had. This is exactly what happened. Yoda looks up, then knows he has failed because the emperor is now gone, not still dangling there. If he was why would look have a failed look on his face when he could just go back up there and engage again. He then knows what you or I would know at that point.. he's gone and he's calling for people to find me and kill me, since you concede there were troops all around.
Next, so you concede there were storm troopers in the building. Cool. You also concede yoda has some very good jedi senses correct? You would agree that Yoda could certainly sense when storm troopers are heading his way to find him and kill him? These are all things that Yoda has proven he can do, and has done before when he sensed danger to himself or friends. Yet you're sitting here claiming there is no proof Yoda sensed that they were coming or in near proximity? As I said before, how do you logically come to that conclusion when the majority of logical evidence points in the other direction. Yes nothing is specifically said, but that doesn't mean we can't draw logical assumptions about what wasn't said. Unless of course, you follow the theme that we can never ever do so, and the only facts are ones spelled out for us in black and white. When as we know, in our own court system, there are implied facts that are clearly admissible in court.
With Sidious's disarming and Yoda's retreat, you want to assume facts not in evidence: we don't see Sidious disarmed and there are other plausible theories (perhaps he switched to Force-only combat?) and we do not see in the movie nor are we told in the novelization that stormtroopers are on their way. And then you contradict the movie -- which shows that Sidious was still dangling from the pod when Yoda fled -- to suit your own interpretation.
I'm personally not interested in going further, because you can't pull assumptions out of thin air or defy the G-canon movie blindly to facilitate your own theory.
Absolutely; but my methodology as a debater does not allow me to blindly assume facts not in evidence. What you have done is attempt to validate your theories as simple fact when this is not the case. It is absolutely believable that Palpatine was disarmed; Yoda had been practicing religiously for decades, whereas the Emperor is believed not to have touched a lightsaber since before his Chancellorship. It is also believable that the impending presence of stormtroopers would have encouraged Yoda to depart when he did, but we do not see in the movie (or read in the novelization) that they were about to intervene on the Emperor's behalf.
Originally posted by Gideon
Absolutely; but my methodology as a debater does not allow me to blindly assume facts not in evidence. What you have done is attempt to validate your theories as simple fact when this is not the case. It is absolutely believable that Palpatine was disarmed; Yoda had been practicing religiously for decades, whereas the Emperor is believed not to have touched a lightsaber since before his Chancellorship. It is also believable that the impending presence of stormtroopers would have encouraged Yoda to depart when he did, but we do not see in the movie (or read in the novelization) that they were about to intervene on the Emperor's behalf.
Fair enough, and I have understood your position that things being in black and white is clearer proof than what I'm proposing. However, my question is… Is your position that unless it is specifically stated in black and white.. that we can never draw any logical conclusion about things that aren't? To go further, you don't agree that in law, things can be considered proof/facts based on other evidence submitted, and thus logical conclusions can be drawn.. even if not implicitly stated in black and white? I'm guessing by your response you have never done this and feel that is false?
Enyalus
It doesn't really make sense that Palpatine briefly knocks Yoda out with his Force Lightning and decides not to finish him immediately, either, but it happens.
I'd like to say that that was a nice attempt to justify an incompetent moment in the script, but it really wasn't. Palpatine's incapacitation of Yoda wasn't the best move in the grand scheme of things, but it's in tune with a glaring character flaw that has been present since his first appearance in the mythos: his glaring overconfidence. He toys with individuals and enemies, particularly when he feels he's already won (which he had).
When Yoda showed himself to be far more formidable than Sidious had intended, his goals clearly shifted from combat to survival, hence his attempt to flee.
Now please explain to me why Master "Destroy the Sith[, not fvck up an opportunity to do so], we must" Yoda would allow such a thing to occur.
ares834
Scripts are considered canon. One can not casually dismiss it even though it doesn't make sense.
If what doesn't make sense contradicts the movie, it absolutely can. Yoda's whole mission was to destroy the Sith; why would he let Palpatine go? That defies his entire purpose for being there. That's not just bad choreography, that was a stupid move, which is probably why you don't see that bullshit in the movie.
Originally posted by Gideon
I'd like to say that that was a nice attempt to justify an incompetent moment in the script, but it really wasn't. Palpatine's incapacitation of Yoda wasn't the best move in the grand scheme of things, but it's in tune with a glaring character flaw that has been present since his first appearance in the mythos: his glaring overconfidence. He toys with individuals and enemies, particularly when he feels he's already won (which he had).
It's a completely different scenario from when Palpatine had Luke at his mercy on the Death Star, unarmed and totally helpless and dying.
Palpatine should have known better than to stand over a stunned Yoda and laugh, instead of finishing him quickly. It makes no more sense than Yoda disarming Sidious and then hopping away. The script does not contradict the movie. In the movie, all we know is that Sidious no longer has his lightsaber. In the script, we see the explanation for it.
Enyalus
Pardonnez-moi, but Sidious hadn't won anything.
😐
...
😆
Hadn't he? In one fell swoop, Palpatine ended the Clone Wars, defeated the Confederacy and obliterated the majority of the Jedi, corrupted the Chosen One, and announced the creation of a Galactic Empire. The fact that the novelization flat out says that Yoda had lost before he was born and that Star Wars Insider #113 says that "not even Yoda could stop Palpatine's sinister plans" (pg. 28), seems to indicate quite strongly that Palpatine pimpsmacked Yoda into the endless pits of defeat.
(Which is what I was referring to.)
Enyalus
The Force Lightning flash KO happened almost as soon as Yoda stepped into the room. Yoda was briefly knocked out, yes, but still had his lightsaber and Palpatine should be able to gauge the strength of his own blast and realize it wasn't going to halt the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order for all that long.
Says who? Given how Palpatine played Yoda like a fiddle for the entirety of their relationship and then just WTFpwned him with a highly choreographed lightning attack, why would Palpatine believe that Yoda was a credible threat?
Enyalus
It's a completely different scenario from when Palpatine had Luke at his mercy on the Death Star, unarmed and totally helpless and dying.
No, it's not.
Enyalus
Palpatine should have known better than to stand over a stunned Yoda and laugh, instead of finishing him quickly. It makes no more sense than Yoda disarming Sidious and then hopping away. The script does not contradict the movie. In the movie, all we know is that Sidious no longer has his lightsaber. In the script, we see the explanation for it.
lol
Yoda's goal from the onset was to kill Palpatine; not arrest him, not defeat him, not toy with him, to kill him. "Destroy the Sith, we must." Palpatine, on the other hand, was not looking to fight Yoda, was not eager to engage him. Prior to Yoda's appearance in the Rotunda, he quite clearly didn't care. The fact that he would later tell Vader in the Rise of Darth Vader to let the Jedi survive and "humble themselves," also indicates quite strongly that he didn't care.
Didn't you yourself provide the quote that says Yoda and Obi-Wan combined weren't enough to concern him?
Sorry, but it's not the same thing. Yoda's action in the script contradicts his chosen goal and method.
Originally posted by Gideon
😐...
😆
Hadn't he? In one fell swoop, Palpatine ended the Clone Wars, defeated the Confederacy and obliterated the majority of the Jedi, corrupted the Chosen One, and announced the creation of a Galactic Empire. The fact that the novelization flat out says that Yoda had lost before he was born and that Star Wars Insider #113 says that "not even Yoda could stop Palpatine's sinister plans" (pg. 28), seems to indicate quite strongly that Palpatine pimpsmacked Yoda into the endless pits of defeat.
(Which is what I was referring to.)
Originally posted by Gideon
Says who? Given how Palpatine played Yoda like a fiddle for the entirety of their relationship and then just WTFpwned him with a highly choreographed lightning attack, why would Palpatine believe that Yoda was a credible threat?
Originally posted by Gideon
No, it's not.
Originally posted by Gideon
Yoda's goal from the onset was to kill Palpatine; not arrest him, not defeat him, not toy with him, to kill him. "Destroy the Sith, we must." Palpatine, on the other hand, was not looking to fight Yoda, was not eager to engage him. Prior to Yoda's appearance in the Rotunda, he quite clearly didn't care. The fact that he would later tell Vader in the Rise of Darth Vader to [b]let the Jedi survive and "humble themselves," also indicates quite strongly that he didn't care.Didn't you yourself provide the quote that says Yoda and Obi-Wan combined weren't enough to concern him?
Sorry, but it's not the same thing. Yoda's action in the script contradicts his chosen goal and method. [/B]