Originally posted by EnyalusThe creature? Definitely.
"...this discipline can only be regarded as under development to a select few."They were speaking about the form being under development. Here's how it goes:
31 BBY: Form VII Juyo is incomplete and being developed fully by Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba and Mace Windu.
22 BBY: Form VII's variant, Vaapad, has been completed and mastered by Mace and Depa.
Inbetween 31 and 22 BBY, Juyo was completed and added to in order to create the variant, Vaapad. [/B]
Originally posted by ares834
from PoD, "At one moment Sirak seemed to be using the jabs and thrusts of Vaapad, the most aggressive and direct of the seven traditional forms." 😛
Originally posted by ares834
Where are the dates from? I still think my interpretation is correct but to each their own.
If anyone but Gideon disagrees with the interpretation I've laid out, they are wrong. Simple as that.
Originally posted by EnyalusYep. I know. Hence the 😛 and 😖hifty: emoticons.Drew K. admitted that was a mistake. The editor failed to catch it. [/B]
That under development quote you want to haggle over? It's being said by Cin Drallig in 31 BBY, recorded in the Great Holocron. Source is Jedi vs. Sith, page 110.If anyone but Gideon disagrees with the interpretation I've laid out, they are wrong. Simple as that.
Originally posted by ShoesIllogical? Not in the slightest. Mace first won the duel via Vaapad + Shatterpoint, and then he won the force battle via Vaapad. Never once [in the novel or in the film] was it stated that Palps 'threw the fight'. Here's the entire excerpt...
Which is illogical, and thus proves that Palpatine threw the fight.
"[Mace] had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease.."
Was it mentioned that Mace had no strength left to fight? Yes. But despite that, did Mace actually continue to fight/overcome Palpatine's lightning, until Palpatine himself was mangled beyond recognition, and no longer had enough energy to keep up the efforts? Yes.
Actions > statements. Mace pwned Palpatine fair and square.
Originally posted by Galan007
Illogical? Not in the slightest. Mace first won the duel via Vaapad + Shatterpoint, and then he won the force battle via Vaapad. Never once [in the novel or in the film] was it stated that Palps 'threw the fight'. Here's the entire excerpt..."[Mace] had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease.."
Was it mentioned that Mace had no strength left to fight? Yes. But despite that, did Mace actually continue to fight/overcome Palpatine's lightning, until Palpatine himself was mangled beyond recognition, and no longer had enough energy to keep up the efforts? Yes.
Actions > statements. Mace pwned Palpatine fair and square.
Hey my friend.. I hope you're good. Man I'm sick and tired of this theory about Sids throwing the fight and pretending to be weak... It gets old.
Galan007
and then he won the force battle via Vaapad.
What Force duel?
Galan007
until Palpatine himself was mangled beyond recognition, and no longer had enough energy to keep up the efforts? Yes.
Provide the evidence that Palpatine lacked the energy to continue his efforts, plz.
Galan007
Mace pwned Palpatine fair and square.
'Pwnage', you say? 😐
Galan007
All of these questions can be answered by reading the excerpt I posted above. 🙂
Hardly.
Windu + lightsaber =/= Force fight. Try again.
All we have is Palpatine saying he's "too weak." That he later jumps up and blasts Windu's ass out the window is incontrovertible evidence that he had enough juice to keep going. Unless you think that minute or so completely recharged his Force battery?
And what about Mace "aching body" Windu says pwnage?
Originally posted by GideonMace turning back the lightning until Palpatine himself could no longer keep up the efforts is all I was referring to. Sorry if you took it differently. 😉
Windu + lightsaber =/= Force fight. Try again.All we have is Palpatine saying he's "too weak." That he later jumps up and blasts Windu's ass out the window is incontrovertible evidence that he had enough juice to keep going. Unless you think that minute or so completely recharged his Force battery?
And what about Mace "aching body" Windu says pwnage?
First, Palps didn't "jump up". He stayed seated. Secondly, I think it's obvious that Palpatine was not completely power-emaciated, but that's not what I was commenting on. I was commenting on the fact that he is the one who gave out first, not Mace (which was a smart thing to do on his part, because even if he did have energy left, and even if he would have kept going, he likely would have killed himself in the process.)
I'm going by actions, not just statements.
Galan007
Mace turning back the lightning until Palpatine himself could no longer keep up the efforts is all I was referring to. Sorry if you took it differently. 😉
You haven't provided evidence that Palpatine was unable to keep up the efforts.
Galan007
He stayed seated. Secondly, I think it's obvious that Palpatine was not completely power-emaciated, but that's not what I was commenting on. I was commenting on the fact that he is the one who gave out first, not Mace (which was a smart thing to do on his part, because even if he did have energy left, and even if he would have kept going, he likely would have killed himself in the process.)
You said that Palpatine lacked the energy to maintain the efforts, which is what you've failed to provide evidence for.
Galan007
I'm going by actions, not just statements.
And actions saw Palpatine annihilate Windu with a storm of Force lightning, eliminating any question that he was somehow drained of power or that he lacked the ability to continue fighting against Windu. The guy withstood his face being melted, what exactly stopped him at that point? He communicated with Anakin telepathically (the movie), sensed Anakin's despair through the Force (the novelization), and manipulated the situation to force Anakin's hand.
Originally posted by GideonYou seem to be cherry picking a bit here. This is the excerpt I have been referring to...
You haven't provided evidence that Palpatine was unable to keep up the efforts.You said that Palpatine lacked the energy to maintain the efforts, which is what you've failed to provide evidence for.
And actions saw Palpatine annihilate Windu with a storm of Force lightning, eliminating any question that he was somehow drained of power or that he lacked the ability to continue fighting against Windu. The guy withstood his face being melted, what exactly stopped him at that point? He communicated with Anakin telepathically (the movie), sensed Anakin's despair through the Force (the novelization), and manipulated the situation to force Anakin's hand.
"[Mace] had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease.."
If you believe that the above scene was just a ploy the Palpatine devised, then that is your opinion and you are welcome to it. But from my point of view, Palpatine was unable to keep up his force-efforts (likely for fear of being killed) and legitimately gave out before Windu did.
...
lulwaitwut
007
You seem to be cherry picking a bit here. This is the excerpt I have been referring to...
Mr. Bond, I do not think you comprehend the term.
007
His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred.
wut duz this haff 2 do with sideus not having enuff energy? all it showz is dat he'z badass enuff 2 withstande his face bein meltedd off and still attak mace windoo.
007
I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender.
lulwut?
So... because Palpatine says he's too weak and lays on the ground like a beaten pup... he... really... is? Haven't you played TFU?
Spoiler:We know from the movie that Palpatine communicated with Anakin through telepathy as Windu and the other Masters were on their way to arrest him; we know from the novelization that Palpatine set up the whole fight with an audio feed to present to the Senate as evidence of the Jedi uprising; we know from the movie, script, and novelization that the second Windu is without a lightsaber, Palpatine obliterates him with the Force.
He pulls a similar stunt with Marek, who promptly responds with "It's a trick! He's stronger than you know[blahblah]." And Marek turns out to be pretty right, since Palpatine then annihilates him with Force lightning.
Now I'm not saying Palpatine could have won from the position he was in, but I am saying quite conclusively that he certainly could have kept going.
Originally posted by GideonI agree. All I'm saying is that Palpatine is the one who gave out before Mace in that particular scene. If Palpatine would have kept up his lightning, or tried to attack Mace again (while Mace still had his saber) then Palps almost certainly would have been killed.
Now I'm not saying Palpatine could have won from the position he was in, but I am saying quite conclusively that he certainly could have kept going.
007
I agree with you because you are perfect, infallible, and ruggedly handsome and I am but a pimple on the face of an imperfect world in your very presence
👆
007
All I'm saying is that Palpatine is the one who gave out before Mace in that particular scene. If Palpatine would have kept up his lightning, or tried to attack Mace again (while Mace still had his saber) then Palps almost certainly would have been killed.
Spoiler:
Proof?