Attempting to bait me won't work, Enyalus, because I know our record. Even tonight, you're backpeddling on a different thread. So even if I am off my game, I'm still moar than a match for you.
(Which pleases me.)
Now, you'll have to provide evidence to indicate that Windu deliberately did not enter Vaapad during the start of the duel. Why would he wait?
Originally posted by Gideon
Attempting to bait me won't work, Enyalus, because I know our record. Even tonight, you're backpeddling on a different thread. So even if I am off my game, I'm still moar than a match for you.
Originally posted by Gideon
(Which pleases me.)
Originally posted by Gideon
Now, you'll have to provide evidence to indicate that Windu deliberately did not enter Vaapad during the start of the duel. Why would he wait?
I suspect one can only enter Vaapad when one directly engages that person in combat. There's circumstantial evidence I could bring to the table to support that.
I'll save us some time and launch a pre-emptive strike,
Enyalus, two pages ago
Mace held Palpatine off long enough to fully submerse himself in Vaapad. After he fully submerses himself in it the first time, it looks like it takes no time at all for him to do it again in the passage I quoted.
^ Here, you admit that Windu held Sidious off in order to fully submerge himself in Vaapad. And then you go onto add the qualifier, "After he fully [submerses himself in it] the first time, it looks like it takes no time at all for him to do so again." Here, you admit that the first time was not automatic or instantaneous, thus making this,
Enyalus
If RoTS Mace sinks into Vaapad effortlessly three times and fails to sink into Vaapad zero times, then RoTS Mace can sink into Vaapad effortlessly unless there's evidence to the contrary.
...A blatant contradiction.
Originally posted by ares834
Ok... We all saw the movie and know Palpatine was taking a full blast to his face. Yet there is nothing to suggest that he would have been killed in the very near future if he countined pouring it out. Heck Galan007 posted a quote by GL that shows the lightning was not what changed his face but the effort to keep the lightning flowing.Except no where does Stover say Mace can't countine to reflect it. What he says is Mace can no longer fight against his blade. Which he clearly can't as at the end of the passage it is very near his face.
But he could not keep his own lightsaber from getting pushed into his face.
The movie (highest canon) doesn't show Mace's saber being forced towards his face at all. If anything, it depicts him actually pushing towards Sidious.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I would say Windu would tire out before Palpatine would have. Palpatine was pretending to be weak and lose his powers, whereas Windu was not pretending to struggle with it. I do not see how Palpatine was in any real danger from his own lightning if he had to pretend.I'll check it out again.
You mean Palpatine was on Mace like white on rice. The databank even says Palpatine was "forcing the mighty Windu back," not the other way around.
**** the databank! The movie and the novel depict Mace on the defensive only at the beginning of the duel, with Mace on the offensive the rest of the way out (save for Sids desperate force push). So yes, Mace was on him like white on rice (or like a fly on dog shit).
Originally posted by Jinsoku TakaiSomething is wrong with your eyes. The movie never shows Mace forcing Palpatine back, and the novel calls them equals after Mace submerges in vapaad with Sidious having the upperhand before then.
**** the databank! The movie and the novel depict Mace on the defensive only at the beginning of the duel, with Mace on the offensive the rest of the way out (save for Sids desperate force push). So yes, Mace was on him like white on rice (or like a fly on dog shit).
Galan said the reason Sidious did not use offensive force powers was because Mace was on him like white on rice, well he was wrong since it was more the other way around.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Per the novel, the only time Mace was on the 'defensive', was before he was actively using Vaapad (which wasn't very long) -- but even then, he was still able to at least defend himself against Palpatine's attacks. The moment Mace submerged himself in Vaapad, however, the battle became "effortless" for him.
Galan said the reason Sidious did not use offensive force powers was because Mace was on him like white on rice, well he was wrong since it was more the other way around.
Aside from all of that, if Palps were really doing as well at you say, and had Mace on the defensive more times than not, then GL himself would have never stated that Mace "overpowered" Palpatine throughout the duel portion of their battle.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Something is wrong with your eyes. The movie never shows Mace forcing Palpatine back, and the novel calls them equals after Mace submerges in vapaad with Sidious having the upperhand before then.Galan said the reason Sidious did not use offensive force powers was because Mace was on him like white on rice, well he was wrong since it was more the other way around.
Are YOU blind? Mace was forcing Sids back during their onscreen duel as well as the majority of their duel in the RotS novel. And the novel says that if Vaapad were Mace's only gift, that they would battle in a never ending stalemate. Too bad for Sidious that Mace also has shatterpoint, therefore making Mace not equal but greater than Sidious, as the proof is in the pudding.
Originally posted by Galan007Lucas never said Windu overpowered Palpatine throughout the portion or their duel, he only said Windu overpowered him, and he did overpower Palpatine with a kick to the face. I never said Palpatine had Mace on the defensive more times than not, but that he had Mace on the defensive more times than Mace had him (which I do not remembering Palpatine ever being on the defensive).
Per the novel, the only time Mace was on the 'defensive', was before he was actively using Vaapad (which wasn't very long) -- but even then, he was still able to at least defend himself against Palpatine's attacks. The moment Mace submerged himself in Vaapad, however, the battle became "effortless" for him.Aside from all of that, if Palps were really doing as well at you say, and had Mace on the defensive more times than not, then GL himself would have never stated that Mace "overpowered" Palpatine throughout the duel portion of their battle.
You made it seen as if Mace forced a saber duel on to Palpatine, and not giving Palpatine a chance to use his force powers, when Palpatine was the one all over Mace forcing him back. Palpatine forced a saber duel onto Mace, allowing Mace to sink into vapaad which made him Palpatine's equal. And yes, Windu did overpower Palpatine with a kick to the face allowing him to win the duel.
Originally posted by Jinsoku TakaiWhat was Palpatine's shatterpoint? Because I recall Windu thinking it was Palpatine's fear and was proven wrong.
Are YOU blind? Mace was forcing Sids back during their onscreen duel as well as the majority of their duel in the RotS novel. And the novel says that if Vaapad were Mace's only gift, that they would battle in a never ending stalemate. Too bad for Sidious that Mace also has shatterpoint, therefore making Mace not equal but greater than Sidious, as the proof is in the pudding.
If the novel says Palpatine was being forced back can you provide the quote? Or are you gonna say fvck that too if it does not agree with what you thought you saw in the movie.
As far as the movie I am not going to argue with you about, because you must have seen a new edited version that I didn't hear about.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Nah!
Mace has one lightsaber that only takes up so much space. Galen's lightning is huge arc of electrical terror. Mace would be able to reflect that light that comes at his lightsaber, but free surges of electricity would horrible damage his body. I mean, Shaak Ti was even killed by it.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Goodness, I should have stopped reading there.
Lucas never said Windu overpowered Palpatine throughout the portion or their duel, he only said Windu overpowered him, and he did overpower Palpatine with a kick to the face.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66What part of "stalemate" isn't computing? Despite the battle being "effortless" for Mace, he and Palpatine were equal -- neither could make headway on the other (until Mace used Shatterpoint as well) -- the superconducting loop Vaapad brings to the table was in full effect. That is what I meant when I made the "white on rice" comment.
You made it seen as if Mace forced a saber duel on to Palpatine, and not giving Palpatine a chance to use his force powers, when Palpatine was the one all over Mace forcing him back. Palpatine forced a saber duel onto Mace, allowing Mace to sink into vapaad which made him Palpatine's equal.
As for Palpatine not using force powers: All I can say is that if he would have been in a position where he could have used his powers in a more offensive manner, surely he would have done so instead of losing (it's not like he refrained from using them against Yoda, after all.) But if I had to guess, I'd say that it would be quite difficult to manifest any type of formidable force powers, when you're locked in a perpetual stalemate with your opponent and moving at blur-esque speeds. /shrug
Anyhow, what are we still arguing about? Mace won. Endastory.