Rots Obi-Wan and Mace Windu vs. Rots Vader and dark jedi Galen Marek

Started by Enyalus11 pages

Originally posted by ares834
Except no where does Stover say Mace can't countine to reflect it. What he says is Mace can no longer fight against his blade. Which he clearly can't as at the end of the passage it is very near his face.

But he could not keep his own lightsaber from getting pushed into his face.


Stop being dense. Stover writes the line about Mace's lightsaber being pushed back. And then he writes Palpatine saying an entire sentence, and blasting him with another gout. If Mace couldn't have fought against his blade anymore, then during that sentence and the lightning that followed it, he'd have been beheaded by his own blade. It didn't happen. No matter how apologetic you're attempting to be to explain away Palpatine's loss.

Palpatine's lightning was killing Palpatine. Mace's blade was not killing Mace.

Get over it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Ineffectual in that the lightning most certainly did not harm Mace. Sure it was a struggle for him to block it, but he still blocked it nonetheless. And though Palpatine may not have been powerless at the end of the battle, it was certainly strenuous for him to keep maintaining the lightning while it was simultaneously getting shoved back down his throat
I would say Windu would tire out before Palpatine would have. Palpatine was pretending to be weak and lose his powers, whereas Windu was not pretending to struggle with it. I do not see how Palpatine was in any real danger from his own lightning if he had to pretend.

From the same RotS audio commentary: "These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."
I'll check it out again.

No one said Mace beat Palpatine effortlessly, but he still beat him.

As for Palpatine not using offensive force powers until the end; all I can say is that he simply didn't have the chance to -- Mace was on him like white on rice the entire time. If using offensive force powers against Mace in the midst of battle would've been an option, I'm sure Palps would have done so (he certainly had no problem using them vs. Yoda.)

You mean Palpatine was on Mace like white on rice. The databank even says Palpatine was "forcing the mighty Windu back," not the other way around.

::double facepalm::

Palpatine's lightning was killing Palpatine. Mace's blade was not killing Mace.
How can you call him dense? If it was killing him then how was he pretending to be weak. Usually when something is killing you, it's automatic that your body starts to weaken.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I would say Windu would tire out before Palpatine would have. Palpatine was pretending to be weak and lose his powers, whereas Windu was not pretending to struggle with it. I do not see how Palpatine was in any real danger from his own lightning if he had to pretend.
See the previous posts on this page.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You mean Palpatine was on Mace like white on rice. The databank even says Palpatine was "forcing the mighty Windu back," not the other way around.
This implies that Palpatine was controlling the duel... He certainly was not.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Stop being dense. Stover writes the line about Mace's lightsaber being pushed back. And then he writes Palpatine saying an entire sentence, and blasting him with another gout. If Mace couldn't have fought against his blade anymore, then during that sentence and the lightning that followed it, he'd have been beheaded by his own blade. It didn't happen. No matter how apologetic you're attempting to be to explain away Palpatine's loss.

No where did Stover say Mace's lightsaber would go flying back into face. It was being pushed back. I have direct canon evidence saying Mace could no longer hold back his blade and evidence that it was pushed back into his face. Yet you claim it isn't true. 😕

Mace's blade was not killing Mace.

But it would have.

Shit. This is not only ridiculous, it's getting tedious. This is my final post on the matter.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How can you call him dense? If it was killing him then how was he pretending to be weak. Usually when something is killing you, it's automatic that your body starts to weaken.

Per the novel which you and Ares are clinging to, Sidious' muscles were being burned away and the bones of his skull were softening/melting. That doesn't sound like serious injury and the beginning signs of death to you? From Palpatine's own mouth, he says Mace is killing him. Enough crap.
Originally posted by ares834
No where did Stover say Mace's lightsaber would go flying back into face. It was being pushed back. I have direct canon evidence saying Mace could no longer hold back his blade and evidence that it was pushed back into his face. Yet you claim it isn't true. 😕

Are you so confused that you forgot what you were arguing for? I never said it wasn't being pushed back. You argued that if Palpatine had kept it up, Mace's blade would have continued to be pushed back into his face, presumably killing him. I countered that even after the point where Stover wrote that, Mace persisted in blocking and his blade was not pushed back into his own face. Ergo, he could have persisted in blocking Sidious' lightning for an undetermined amount of time if Sidious had kept it up. Sidious, on the other hand, was dying already from his own bolts of energy.

If anyone had a reason to give up first, it was Sidious. Which he did.

Period.

Originally posted by Enyalus
From Palpatine's own mouth, he says Mace is killing him. Enough crap.

From Mace's own mouth, he says Palpatine is too strong for him.

Are you so confused that you forgot what you were arguing for? I never said it wasn't being pushed back. You argued that if Palpatine had kept it up, Mace's blade would have continued to be pushed back into his face, presumably killing him. I countered that even after the point where Stover wrote that, Mace persisted in blocking and his blade was not pushed back into his own face. Ergo, he could have persisted in blocking Sidious' lightning for an undetermined amount of time if Sidious had kept it up.

And it was. Sidious's ligthning was pushing back Mace's blade into his face and when it was near enough that Mace literaly was choking on it. Sidious let up. Yeah it may not have been instantly pushed back into his face, something I never said, but it was moving toward it. Which was allways my point. Mace could not have held out for much longer, his blade was being pushed into his face and he did not have the power to stop it.
I never said it wasn't being pushed back.

Mace persisted in blocking and his blade was not pushed back into his own face.

😕
Anyway... it was being pushed back into his face. He had no strength left to hold it back, ergo it's moving toward his face.

Sidious, on the other hand, was dying already from his own bolts of energy.

And he could have lived for an undetermined time had Mace countined to reflect back his lightning.

If anyone had a reason to give up first, it was Sidious. Which he did.

Yeah he did. So he could fully ensnare Anakin in his web of lies.

Someone needs further English lessons to determine the difference between the Past Perfect Simple tense and Past Perfect Progressive tense. And that someone is Ares.

I attempted to mitigate the extent of your fail by allowing you to gracefully bow out. Afterall, acceptance is the first step towards recovering from addiction. But no, you insisted on keeping up your false conclusions when all you need to do is come and kneel before me to beg your forgiveness. I will not judge you for your impotence, my child. There is no shame in conceding to me.

Do the right thing. Quit.

The Wizard of Oz is on TCM right now, so I'm in a good mood.

Therefore, I forgive all past transgressions against myself and my impeccable logic, and reiterate that the Jedi win this match.

Love and kisses to all. Have a pleasant evening.

I'm KMC's Good Samaritan, so I'll help you all clean up the mess you've made.

007
This implies that Palpatine was controlling the duel... He certainly was not.

You mentioned earlier in this thread or in another that I make it my business to defend Sidious; after this little nugget (not to mention your own admission in the Favorite Characters thread that Windu is one of yours), we can assume you're exactly what you think I am; we just disagree on the character.

Your "implication" is irrelevant; the fact remains that the film, novelization, and screenplay depict Palpatine butchering two Jedi Masters before Mace can react and then taking on Fisto and Windu simultaneously; both of them together clearly aren't enough, Fisto is killed and, as dictated by the databank, the mighty Windu was forced back.

You read the novelization, correct? Then you know full well that it was only when Windu entrenched himself in Vaapad was he able to equal Sidious. And the source of Windu's power-up was Palpatine's own energy. So what can we assume? In terms of power, Windu's not even in Palpatine's league, and Palpatine was controlling the fight (initially, anyways) as per the databank. In fact, the screenplay also mentions that Palpatine forced Windu out onto the window, so take that for what it's worth.

Enyalus
There is no shame in conceding to me.

Stop pretending to be me; you make me seem like such a douche. In either case, Ares is correct: Palpatine was feigning weakness and was exaggerating his present condition as per the words of George Lucas. Objectively speaking, even without Lucas's acknowledgement, the film, novelization, and screenplay all but scream this fact: Palpatine communicated with Anakin via telepathy as Windu and the others were entering the office and as per the recent edition of the Star Wars Insider (which I flipped through at Barnes & Noble), Anakin perceived Windu to be the aggressor and Palpatine to be the victim. The whole thing was a set up to force Anakin's hand by putting him into a position where he had to make an impulsive decision against the Jedi.

As far as the duel itself is concerned, I've already established on other threads that Palpatine was clearly Windu's superior as the duel began. In fact, this duel is surprisingly similar in function to Anakin's final duel with Count Dooku. In both situations, the Sith Lords demonstrate superiority over their opponents; if Anakin had entered the fight equipped to kill the Count, then he and Kenobi would have been sufficient to slay the Sith. Instead, Dooku demonstrated power and skill in excess of Anakin's until Anakin entered a specific state of mind that enabled him to tap into his reservoirs of power to defeat Dooku.

Likewise, if Windu had entered that fight capable of kicking Sidious's ass, then he would have done so when he had three of his "celebrated swordsmen" teammates backing him up. Instead, that team was slaughtered rather casually and Windu was unable to defeat Palpatine even with Fisto in active assistance. Not to mention, of course, the fact that Windu was forced back into the main office.

No one disputes the fact that Windu won; but Palpatine definitely controlled the fight initially and it wasn't by superior skill or power that Windu defeated his enemy. The deficits of Vaapad were made manifest in both the novelization and screenplay; a second's distraction was enough for Palpatine to nearly kill Windu and it wasn't enough to defeat the Emperor outright.

Palpatine is far more powerful and possibly more skilled than Windu and there is zero indication that a 1v1 scenario would end the same way.

Wrapping it up, Vaapad is neither infallible nor a guaranteed technique to defeat dark siders. It is highly effective, sure, but Windu will be going head to head against a far more powerful Force user and an unrestrained psyche. He can win, of course, but I'm not persuaded by the evidence that he will.

Originally posted by Gideon
Then you know full well that it was [b]only when Windu entrenched himself in Vaapad was he able to equal Sidious.[/B]
Obviously I know when Mace embraced Vaapad he equaled Sidious, that's why I've been mentioning Vaapad throughout this entire thread. Where have you been?

Originally posted by Gideon
Stop pretending to be me; you make me seem like such a douche.

Seem like?

Originally posted by Gideon
In either case, Ares is correct: Palpatine was feigning weakness and was exaggerating his present condition as per the words of George Lucas. Objectively speaking, even without Lucas's acknowledgement, the film, novelization, and screenplay all but scream this fact: Palpatine communicated with Anakin via telepathy as Windu and the others were entering the office and as per the recent edition of the Star Wars Insider (which I flipped through at Barnes & Noble), Anakin perceived Windu to be the aggressor and Palpatine to be the victim. The whole thing was a set up to force Anakin's hand by putting him into a position where he had to make an impulsive decision against the Jedi.

As far as the duel itself is concerned, I've already established on other threads that Palpatine was clearly Windu's superior as the duel began. In fact, this duel is surprisingly similar in function to Anakin's final duel with Count Dooku. In both situations, the Sith Lords demonstrate superiority over their opponents; if Anakin had entered the fight equipped to kill the Count, then he and Kenobi would have been sufficient to slay the Sith. Instead, Dooku demonstrated power and skill in excess of Anakin's until Anakin entered a specific state of mind that enabled him to tap into his reservoirs of power to defeat Dooku.

Likewise, if Windu had entered that fight capable of kicking Sidious's ass, then he would have done so when he had three of his "celebrated swordsmen" teammates backing him up. Instead, that team was slaughtered rather casually and Windu was unable to defeat Palpatine even with Fisto in active assistance. Not to mention, of course, the fact that Windu was forced back into the main office.

[B]No one disputes the fact that Windu won; but Palpatine definitely controlled the fight initially and it wasn't by superior skill or power that Windu defeated his enemy. The deficits of Vaapad were made manifest in both the novelization and screenplay; a second's distraction was enough for Palpatine to nearly kill Windu and it wasn't enough to defeat the Emperor outright.

Palpatine is far more powerful and possibly more skilled than Windu and there is zero indication that a 1v1 scenario would end the same way.

Wrapping it up, Vaapad is neither infallible nor a guaranteed technique to defeat dark siders. It is highly effective, sure, but Windu will be going head to head against a far more powerful Force user and an unrestrained psyche. He can win, of course, but I'm not persuaded by the evidence that he will. [/B]

I don't understand how any of this pertains to anything I said. I certainly never suggested or stated that Palpatine was not feigning weakness...as for the rest, I skimmed over it, but I assume that I wouldn't disagree with anything that was said there, either.

007
Obviously I know when Mace embraced Vaapad he equaled Sidious, that's why I've been mentioning Vaapad throughout this entire thread. Where have you been?

Only when. And since he never (apparently) starts out in a fight entrenched in Vaapad, his ass can be annihilated by a superior Force-user.

Originally posted by Gideon
Only when. And since he never (apparently) starts out in a fight entrenched in Vaapad, his ass can be annihilated by a superior Force-user.

Are you forgetting that although they knew Palpatine was the Sith Lord, because they were dumbasses they were taken completely by surprise? They didn't even know he was armed until he leapt across the room and killed two of those three "celebrated swordsmen."

In a 1 v 1 fight where Mace knows he's going to face Sidious in a battle, I'd like to see you prove that he couldn't just instantly sink into Vaapad. Because he seems to do it pretty instantaneously in the novelization here:

Palpatine lifted his head.

His eyes smoked with hate.

"Fool," he said.

He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

Enyalus
Are you forgetting that although they knew Palpatine was the Sith Lord, because they were dumbasses they were taken completely by surprise?

That depends on how you define "surprise"; as you admit, they were prepared with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, they assumed battle stance with weapons ignited and at the ready; and Palpatine telegraphed his entire maneuver by standing up, brandishing and igniting his weapon, and then tossing off a one liner before attacking.

Now, I'll readily admit that they clearly weren't prepared for how dangerous he was, but no amount of intel was going to change how Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar performed against him. In the words of George Lucas from the Making of Revenge of the Sith, "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine."

Doesn't matter if Palpatine took them on in the office, in a warehouse, in an open field; they were going to lose because he was that much better than they were.

Enyalus
They didn't even know he was armed until he leapt across the room and killed two of those three "celebrated swordsmen."

Bullshit; he tossed off a one liner after igniting his weapon and before he attacked.

Don't lie; you'll just need to accept Palpatine's superiority and move on with your life.

Enyalus
In a 1 v 1 fight where Mace knows he's going to face Sidious in a battle, I'd like to see you prove that he couldn't just instantly sink into Vaapad. Because he seems to do it pretty instantaneously in the novelization here:

Entering Vaapad and reaching the state required to be Palpatine's equal are two separate things; because if he can instantaneously enter Vaapad and become Palpatine's equal at the same time, then the duel would have been a lot shorter.

Originally posted by Gideon
That depends on how you define "surprise"; as you admit, they were prepared with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, they assumed battle stance with weapons ignited and at the ready; and Palpatine telegraphed his entire maneuver by standing up, brandishing and igniting his weapon, and then tossing off a one liner [b]before attacking.

Now, I'll readily admit that they clearly weren't prepared for how dangerous he was, but no amount of intel was going to change how Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar performed against him. In the words of George Lucas from the Making of Revenge of the Sith, "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine."

Doesn't matter if Palpatine took them on in the office, in a warehouse, in an open field; they were going to lose because he was that much better than they were.

[/b]
It seems like we agree - the three Jedi Masters Mace had with him made no difference in the fight; nor would they have. So I'm curious as to why you're using that as part of your reason for proving Sidious' superior lightsaber skills over Windu? Gnats are still gnats, compared to Sidious. As you point out, you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. Mace can compete with him...with or without an entourage.

Originally posted by Gideon
Entering Vaapad and reaching the state required to be Palpatine's equal are two separate things; because if he can instantaneously enter Vaapad and become Palpatine's equal at the same time, then the duel would have been a lot shorter.

Mace held Palpatine off long enough to fully submerse himself in Vaapad. After he fully submerses himself in it the first time, it looks like it takes no time at all for him to do it again in the passage I quoted.

Enyalus
It seems like we agree - the three Jedi Masters Mace had with him made no difference in the fight; nor would they have. So I'm curious as to why you're using that as part of your reason for proving Sidious' superior lightsaber skills over Windu? Gnats are still gnats, compared to Sidious. As you point out, you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. Mace can compete with him...with or without an entourage.

We don't agree, because if Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior during the beginning of the fight, then those "gnats" -- who, regardless of their power and skill relative to Palpatine, are still celebrated swordsmen -- should have enabled Windu to rather easily and quickly bring Sidious down. As it stands, though, Palpatine was able to slaughter the first two rather casually and still outmaneuver Fisto and Windu simultaneously.

Why? Because, at that part of the fight, he was more powerful and deadlier than all of them, including Windu.

Enyalus
Mace held Palpatine off long enough to fully submerse himself in Vaapad. After he fully submerses himself in it the first time, it looks like it takes no time at all for him to do it again in the passage I quoted.

Which has nothing to do with what you said,

Enyalus
In a 1 v 1 fight where Mace knows he's going to face Sidious in a battle, I'd like to see you prove that he couldn't just instantly sink into Vaapad.

...Windu knew he was facing Sidious in battle at that point, and was still unable to equal the Sith Lord "instantly."

You lose. But that was a foregone conclusion.

Originally posted by Gideon
We don't agree, because if Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior during the beginning of the fight, then those "gnats" -- who, regardless of their power and skill relative to Palpatine, are still celebrated swordsmen -- should have enabled Windu to rather easily and quickly bring Sidious down. As it stands, though, Palpatine was able to slaughter the first two rather casually and still outmaneuver Fisto and Windu simultaneously.

Why? Because, at that part of the fight, he was more powerful and deadlier than all of them, including Windu.


Uh, yes. Again, we agree. Palpatine began the fight as more powerful than Windu. But that proves exactly nothing because Windu had not submersed himself in Vaapad yet. And even though he was not Palpatine's equal at the beginning of the fight, he was skilled enough to avoid being killed and allow himself to sink into Vaapad so that he could equal him. Palpatine could not kill him outright from the onset of the fight. By the time that Sidious controlled the fight and pushed him back, Mace was in Vaapad fully and then took control of the fight from there.

The point you were making is moot.

Originally posted by Gideon
...Windu knew he was facing Sidious in battle at that point, and was still unable to equal the Sith Lord "instantly."

In continuity, Mace has already fully submerged himself in Vaapad. If they fight again in a forum battle, he knows how to give himself over again. Meaning that he can and will enter Vaapad instantly, as he does later in the duel (twice, really.)

Originally posted by Gideon
We don't agree, because if Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior during the beginning of the fight, then those "gnats" -- who, regardless of their power and skill relative to Palpatine, are still celebrated swordsmen -- should have enabled Windu to rather easily and quickly bring Sidious down.

Why?