Rots Obi-Wan and Mace Windu vs. Rots Vader and dark jedi Galen Marek

Enyalus
But that proves exactly nothing because Windu had not submersed himself in Vaapad yet.

Enyalus
In a 1 v 1 fight where Mace knows he's going to face Sidious in a battle, I'd like to see you prove that he couldn't just instantly sink into Vaapad.

👆

I rest my case, counselor. Or is it your case, since you seem to be making it for me?

Enyalus
In continuity, Mace has already fully submerged himself in Vaapad. If they fight again in a forum battle, he knows how to give himself over again. Meaning that he can and will enter Vaapad instantly, as he does later in the duel (twice, really.)

He didn't know how to fully enter Vaapad before, then? Seems like if you don't know how to do something, you're not going to do it at all. More accurately, he knew how to, but it was a process that took time, effort, and concentration.

In any case, you'd have to prove or have indicated that the Mace Windu in question during these hypothetical scenarios is specifically from the second segment of the fight with Palpatine, prior to his death. Because 'RotS Windu' doesn't sound like 'Mace Windu as of the two minute mark in his fight with Sidious; the moment when he knows exactly how to enter Vaapad foreverrrr!'

Blax
Why?

Because all four of them were highly skilled combatants and duelists benefitting from advanced knowledge of their enemy's allegiance (and thus, if capable of common sense, a vague assessment of his skill relative to the likes of Dooku), combat preparation in that they had assumed fighting stance and had their weapons prepared, and they were in a room that is just as much of a potential advantage as it is a hindrance (Palpatine would have a much smaller space to avoid four enemy lightsabers; and don't give me bullshit about them stabbing each other, given Force precognition and coordination amongst Jedi Masters -- Windu, Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar had worked together before).

If Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior, then they should have enabled him to bring Palpatine down.

Originally posted by Gideon
Because all four of them were highly skilled combatants and duelists benefitting from advanced knowledge of their enemy's allegiance (and thus, if capable of common sense, a vague assessment of his skill relative to the likes of Dooku), combat preparation in that they had assumed fighting stance and had their weapons prepared, and they were in a room that is just as much of a potential advantage as it is a hindrance (Palpatine would have a much smaller space to avoid four enemy lightsabers; and don't give me bullshit about them stabbing each other, given Force precognition and coordination amongst Jedi Masters -- Windu, Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar had worked together before).

If Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior, then they should have enabled him to bring Palpatine down.

You have absolutely no clue about fighting, do you?

Blax
You have absolutely no clue about fighting, do you?

Well, I did take Tae Kwon Do for a couple of years, but I'm not black. So I guess you have the advantage?

Originally posted by Gideon
👆

I rest my case, counselor. Or is it your case, since you seem to be making it for me?

In that version, as you know, Mace does not even move before Tiin and Kolar are cut down. And when Anakin gets there, which is the point we see the duel between Mace and Sidious, Mace is already in Vaapad.

Once Mace disengages from Sidious to slash out the window, he is not in Vaapad anymore. He sinks back into it immediately afterward when closing with Sidious again.

And again, finally, when deflecting Sidious' lightning, Mace seemingly sinks into Vaapad instantly. 3 different occasions, according to the novel, where Mace has no trouble at all getting into his Vaapad mindset.

Three separate moments, but the same duel, same conflict, same combatant. You're the one suggesting that Windu could always do it, which is your burden to prove.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, I did take Tae Kwon Do for a couple of years, but I'm not black. So I guess you have the advantage?

Infinitely. Honestly, do yourself a favor and stay in the realm of tossing quotes and sources around, lol. Leave the logic to the rest of us.

Originally posted by Gideon
Three separate moments, but the same duel, same conflict, same combatant. You're the one suggesting that Windu could always do it, which is your burden to prove.

Blax
Infinitely.

Prove it.

Blax
Honestly, do yourself a favor and stay in the realm of tossing quotes and sources around, lol. Leave the logic to the rest of us.

Spoiler:
Because you're some sort of master logician? 😂 😂 😂

You're acting terribly moody.

Originally posted by Gideon
[B]Prove it.

Spoiler:
Because you're some sort of master logician? 😂 😂 😂

From a certain point of view yeah, lol. "Master" is a word of comparisons.

You're acting terribly moody.

You're acting terribly... you. 😐

I guess I just don't have the tolerance that I used to have. I'm getting old man.

Enyalus
If Windu's 3 for 3, then I feel pretty good about the evidence I've provided. Especially since that combatant was the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Windu's not three for three unless the Windu in question is specifically Mace Windu as of RotS, specifically during his fight with Palpatine and a minute or so after the deaths of Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto, just prior to his death.

Because only that Windu is the one who can just automatically shift back into Vaapad against Sidious.

Blax
From a certain point of view yeah, lol. "Master" is a word of comparisons.

I definitely forgot about your badass debating reputation, but I'll certainly keep that in mind from here on out. 😂

Blax
You're acting terribly... you.

I guess I just don't have the tolerance that I used to have. I'm getting old man.

Well, I can only presume then that in your infinite fighting experience, you weren't trained in any sort of classical martial arts. Like Vaapad, it's a mindset, which enhances patience and develops a calm center.

You, on the other hand, are apparently on the verge of tears with someone with whom you've been on a largely friendly basis with for several years, in a discussion in which your participation has been minimal, in an argument that isn't even directed at you.

All of this is to say that I own your soul.

Originally posted by Gideon
Because only that Windu is the one who can just automatically shift back into Vaapad against Sidious.

If RoTS Mace sinks into Vaapad effortlessly three times and fails to sink into Vaapad zero times, then RoTS Mace can sink into Vaapad effortlessly unless there's evidence to the contrary.

Enyalus
Oh, is he now? And there's proof of that somewhere?

Enyalus
But that proves exactly nothing because Windu had not submersed himself in Vaapad yet.

😐

Originally posted by Gideon
I definitely forgot about your badass debating reputation, but I'll certainly keep that in mind from here on out. 😂

Well, I can only presume then that in your infinite fighting experience, you weren't trained in any sort of classical martial arts. Like Vaapad, it's a mindset, which enhances patience and develops a calm center.

You, on the other hand, are apparently on the verge of tears with someone with whom you've been on a largely friendly basis with for several years, in a discussion in which your participation has been minimal, in an argument that isn't even directed at you.

All of this is to say that I own your soul.

Your no u's aside, stop being an asshat, lol. I'm still on friendly terms, which is why I'm taking the time to tell you to stop being an asshat instead of just putting you on ignore like I've done to so many people. The love is still there.

And I seem to recall, vividly, that we've had a discussion about your douchebaggery before, in which you ultimately humbly lamented your arrogance and all was good again. Do you remember? The word "antediluvian" was thrown around several times and was also used to describe yourself.

Hey, don't hate me cuz I'm right and white an' ur black and... packed?

You can't even hate yourself!

Originally posted by Gideon
😐

Enyalus
What you're quoting has nothing at all to do with your assertion. 😐

haermm

Spoiler:
You asked for proof of where Mace couldn't automatically shift into Vaapad against Sidious and I provided a quote where you admitted he didn't automatically shift into Vaapad against Sidious [hadn't submersed himself in Vaapad yet, 'yet' indicating that it required time, which is the antithesis to automatic.

What words do you need defined?

facepalm

He hadn't submerged himself in Vaapad yet because he hadn't tried to do so.

Wow. You're off your game tonight, Big G.