Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Its gotta hurt your credibility some when you say you are ignorant of the YV, but are argueing against the NJO, which is the series that the vong were so big in. You do have knowledge of the NJO though?Anyone remember how many Jedi were in the Myrkr mission and how many Vong they killed then? It was very impressive, considering it was only a dozen or so barley jedi knights, who were mostly in their teens iirc.
Originally posted by One Free Man
I don't see why I should follow this. you ignore it constantly.
Like when?
you failed to recognize a reason.
Any honest and decent military historian will tell you that an ancient army coordinating and supplying 1.4 million soldiers all clumped together at once is absurd.
I read battle meditation, pardon the mistake. No matter what though, he doesn't have an infinite amount of endurance capable of dealing with 1,400,000 troops.
And, as I have shown you, the 1.4 million troops won't all come at him at once. Your own evidence disproved your own theory.
Yes I have. The romans have a practically infinite number of troops to send after them. The Jedi will tire out and slip up, becoming targets before they conquer the eternal horde of conditioned warriors.
Upon seeing the Jedi using their Force powers and space age technology, the Roman legionaries will either run out of fear or bow down and call the Jedi gods.
And 12 jedi are going to block 1.4 million javelins?
Where did you get your 12 Jedi idea from? Someone (I think it was Cilghal) stated that there were hundreds of Jedi present in the Jedi Temple.
As I said, this comment was made without any working knowledge of the YV, partly because of how shitty the writing was that brought them into existence, and part of because I think they're bullshit.
1. You are the one that tells people to look stuff up that you don't know about, you even have (unless if you removed it) a quote talking about that in your profile.
2. It's common sense. How could an ancient age army almost take over the galaxy?
stop saying this. Why would this be a mistake? whenever they attacked before they sent all available forces. They aren't guerilla warfare people, they're a shield wall, you idiot. They send the entire force. The more, the merrier.
1.4 million people would require how much food and water? A lot.
who gives a shit? Luke would have to travel for a thousand miles before making it to rome. Nero isn't the leader of the troops here, it'd most likely be a general. and with so many "legions" which are practically generals minus all the glory, you've got many tactical leadership options available.
Luke can travel pretty fast, many times faster than the eye can see, and since later in your post you concede that the Jedi get Stealth X's he can easily fly there.
wow, um, maybe the 1-3 hundred thousand that normally do that sort of thing? maybe the uh, invasion force+the 1,000,000 extra BATTLE HARDENED, EXPERIENCED, TRAINED OFFICERS could go and attack, while the regular police force takes care of the empire.
"regular police"? Lol the Roman Empire didn't have police.
Please tell me how a Roman army will do jack against a Jedi formation Force pushing them.
Hypothetic bullshit.
You're using a logical fallacy. You haven't actually shown how it is "bs", and just because it's hypothetical doesn't mean that it's BS, especially since you defended that Jango vs Jedi argument in a similar way.
here's the math you can't deal with here. If you are placed with a gun against an unlimited ammount of zombies. No matter how much ammo or how far you run, you are going to tire out and be overcome. Even if this was 1,400,000 ewoks the dozen jedi would still stand no chance.
1. There aren't an unlimited amount of Romans, there are 1.4 million since they get an extra million troops. There's a HUGE difference between 1.4 million and infinity.
2. Zombies in most fiction don't need to eat or drink, but Romans do.
Hypothetical bullshit.
Again, this is not a proper way of addressing my point, because it being hypothetical does not equate to it being BS.
With no tactical strenth or skill at all, 1.4 million ANYTHINGS can overcome 12 jedi. Much less, (as I said before) battle hardened experienced officers.
300 Spartans almost defeated 500,000 to over a million (depending on the source) Persians. The Persians only won due to a traitor revealing a hidden flanking route.
The Jedi could find a path similar to that of thermopylae, only without a flanking route. The Romans attack like the Persians do, only to get Force pushed into oblivion.
Also, please stop with this "12" BS. In LOTF: Invincible 62 Jedi stormed the Anakin Solo, and there have been references to there being hundreds of Jedi in the Jedi Temple.
Yes, i'm back to the 12 known NJO members, since your number of 200 remains unsubstantiated.
Actually, since it was stated that there were hundreds of Jedi in the Temple, my number of 200 is the lowest possibility.
And there's far more than 12 known members. Wookiee it, like you often tell others.
Originally posted by One Free Man
it's like putting a million leaders who know every move their soldiers and their fellow soldiers are going to make. With that many god damn officers, you're not being governed by one officer. They are going to starve to death if they don't attack all at once. You failed to give the one million extra legions any food.
The one million extra legionaries have the food that the Empire is capable of supplying them given their resources.
To march 1.4 million troops into battle at once in ancient times presents these problems:
1. How do they feed all those troops?
2. How do they command all those troops? There has to be a centralized command or else the officers will start doing random stuff that don't coordinate well.
3. How do they fit that many troops in a battleground? It's possible that the troops could suffocate, which is has happened with smaller numbers before.
4. What if Luke uses Electric Judgment, or a Jedi uses a light side variant of Force lightning? That could chain to quite a bit of people.
5. How do they effectively maneuver? To give an order to a group that long would take quite a while; it may take over an hour just to get the group to move to a place, so how do they, say, protect their supply lines?
6. Wouldn't a mass Force push knock them over like dominos?
7. How do the individual troops maneuver when they might not be able to breathe?
And, last but not least.
8. How is this going to do jack against Stealth X's?
This is a moot point, however, since the jedi died in the desert two weeks ago. Pretty much established.
Stealth X's FTW.
not gonna happen. Like I said, they're a shield wall.
Roman tactics are outdated and inefficient against a space age army. Their shield wall (well, the Roman variant of it) is based on the assumption that their shields can actually block attacks, but the Jedi with lightsabers, blasters, Stealth X laser cannons and the Force could easily get through wooden shields.
not going to happen. The jedi have a finite time in battle before they wear out.
They have much more stamina than the Romans, who would be suffocating from being squished. The Jedi would be in a formation that gives much more breathing room AND they have the Force to keep their stamina up.
fine, stealth X's. how long until they run out of fuel. Do they have a striking capacity capable of destroying 1.4 million threats?
Stealth X's were capable of severely crippling star destroyers that had shields capable of withstanding trillion of gigawatts of energy.
God damn how many times do i have to post the OP? there you go. they are dropped off in the far reaches of egypt. there is no food. Even if there is, it won't last them long as it doesn't say they get camels or some way of toting it.
Stealth X's FTW.
No matter how many ****ING times i say that there are no trade routes going through the sahara. It's because, if you looked at the map i provided, they'res NOTHING to ****ING trade on the other side!!!
I could argue this with you, but:
Stealth X's FTW
Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Youre saying the same thing over and over, neither of you are going to change your positions, why continue?
Actually, I did indeed improve my argument; I pretty much destroyed his argument of all 1.4 million troops attacking at once AND I got Stealth X's, which destroys his desert argument and any argument of the Romans winning via pure numbers.
BTW sorry about my statement that the Roman Empire didn't have police; they apparently did have their version of it.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Actually, I did indeed improve my argument; I pretty much destroyed
his argument of all 1.4 million troops attacking at once AND I got Stealth X's,
Also, you keep referring to the NJO as you, why is this? This isn't a game of chess, it's a debate. We are supposed to be objective.
No it doesn't.
which destroys his desert argument and any argument of the Romans winning via pure numbers.
Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Youre saying the same thing over and over, neither of you are going to change your positions, why continue?
Smartest thing said in this thread so far.
One thing: I think at the time of the NJO series, there were 200 Jedi active (I remember a scene where Luke was concerned that if the Jedi didn't exercise caution, the galaxy would be faced with 200 Darth Vaders - Source is Vector Prime I believe). Or was it 100? Can somebody confirm? Don't have the book with me.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Like when?
They're a shield wall you idiot. That's their tactic. They all come at you at once.
Any honest and decent military historian will tell you that an ancient army coordinating and supplying 1.4 million soldiers all clumped together at once is absurd.
Also, i've stated that the only way the romans win this is if they all attack at once. I've stated that they get creamed if they attack in waves or if the jedi perform some sort of covert ops, but in a straight-on fight, the jedi lose.
You're an idiot. No I didn't. Go back and read that post. I said laying down head to foot. Not standing shoulder to shoulder or in a block formation. You fail.
And, as I have shown you, the 1.4 million troops won't all come at him at once. Your own evidence disproved your own theory.
Upon seeing the Jedi using their Force powers and space age technology, the Roman legionaries will either run out of fear or bow down and call the Jedi gods.
When I debate, i weigh feats and abilities and other factors before coming to a conclusion. Normally, it's supposed to be an all-out fight.I will concede that the jedi could (after surviving the desert by some miracle, which HWKN is coming on in a moment to make guesses about and then to uphold his guesses about this miracle as fact) and defenitely would be able to masquerade as gods, sneak into rome, whatever. but then how does giving rome 1,000,000 legionairs make it fair in the least?
The OP also says that rome is alerted and wishes to annihilate the jedi.
So I DUNNO.
Where did you get your 12 Jedi idea from? Someone (I think it was Cilghal) stated that there were hundreds of Jedi present in the Jedi Temple.
1. You are the one that tells people to look stuff up that you don't know about, you even have (unless if you removed it) a quote talking about that in your profile.Thank you for reading my profile. I don't ask people to look up things that I have the burden of proving to them. You also abandoned my jar jar argument, you fool.
Oh, wait, I thought we were ignoring obvious shit for a second. like... HOW THE **** DO THEY GET THROUGH THE SAHARA WITH NO FOOD OR WATER.
1.4 million people would require how much food and water? A lot.
Stealth X's by no means follow the OP. Also:
Luke can travel pretty fast, many times faster than the eye can see, and since later in your post you concede that the Jedi get Stealth X's he can easily fly there.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12850438#post12850438
already retracted that statement, idiot.
Duh, the roman legions who act as police. Jesus christ do I have to spell everything out for you?
"regular police"? Lol the Roman Empire didn't have police.
outlast them. The jedi would have to be awake for at least 162 hours to kill every single one.
Please tell me how a Roman army will do jack against a Jedi formation Force pushing them.
YouTube video
You're using a logical fallacy.
You haven't actually shown how it is "bs",YouTube video
and just because it's hypothetical doesn't mean that it's BS,YouTube video
especially since you defended that Jango vs Jedi argument in a similar way.
1. There aren't an unlimited amount of Romans, there are 1.4 million since they get an extra million troops. There's a HUGE difference between 1.4 million and infinity.
2. Zombies in most fiction don't need to eat or drink, but Romans do.
Again, this is not a proper way of addressing my point, because it being hypothetical does not equate to it being BS.
the spartans had quite a number of factors on their side. this is far from the same thing.
300 Spartans almost defeated 500,000 to over a million (depending on the source) Persians. The Persians only won due to a traitor revealing a hidden flanking route.
YouTube video
The Jedi could find a path similar to that of thermopylae, only without a flanking route. The Romans attack like the Persians do, only to get Force pushed into oblivion.
my number of 200 is the lowest possibility.at what point in time? this is the point in time i'm going with. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Jedi_Order#Jedi_Praxeum_.2811_to_18_ABY.29
Burden of proof isn't on me.
And there's far more than 12 known members. Wookiee it, like you often tell others.
But then, thanks for playing.
Originally posted by One Free Man
You make a bullshit scenario and then tell me to "prove you wrong." you retard.
I proved my scenario (if you disagree with it then prove it). You tried to disprove my scenario by using an analogy that claimed that Jar Jar Binks was Force sensitivity without giving proof.
They're a shield wall you idiot. That's their tactic. They all come at you at once.
wtf? Do you even know what a shield wall is? Do you know how pathetically useless a shield wall would be against weapons that can go through shields?
Also, i've stated that the only way the romans win this is if they all attack at once. I've stated that they get creamed if they attack in waves or if the jedi perform some sort of covert ops, but in a straight-on fight, the jedi lose.
In a straight on fight? This is a war, not a single fight. I have shown that the Romans putting together 1.4 million troops and attacking at once is logistically impossible using Roman technology. Therefore, they will have to attack in waves, and, as you have admitted, the Jedi would win if the Romans did that (which they will have to).
You're an idiot. No I didn't. Go back and read that post. I said laying down head to foot. Not standing shoulder to shoulder or in a block formation. You fail.
My point is that my trying to show how big 1.4 million troops would be you bring up the question as to how an ancient commander is supposed to coordinate them and feed them.
You don't read any of my posts, do you. ok here it is.
Ok.
Please, post links, quotes, or facts to back it up. Burden of proof, remember, like your oh so good at following? prove it.
LOTF: Invincible
"Out came a dozen Jedi Masters leading fifty Jedi Knights"
Which puts to shame your claim of there only being 12 Jedi in the entire NJO.
And that isn't the entire NJO either, because there were many on the planet fighting the ground battle and also many in space.
Oh, and the Anakin Solo was an Imperial 2 class star destroyer, which had a crew of around 37,085 people. 62 Jedi easily defeated 37,085 space age soldiers without suffering any reported casualties. According to LOTF: Invincible they won within minutes. And here's you thinking that a bunch of Roman soldiers could do jack to them.
Thank you for reading my profile. I don't ask people to look up things that I have the burden of proving to them. You also abandoned my jar jar argument, you fool.
I have not abandoned your Jar Jar argument; I asked you to prove that Jar Jar is Force sensitive.
Oh, wait, I thought we were ignoring obvious shit for a second. like... HOW THE **** DO THEY GET THROUGH THE SAHARA WITH NO FOOD OR WATER.
Stealth X's by no means follow the OP. Also:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12850433#post12850433http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12850438#post12850438
already retracted that statement, idiot.
Basically you're retracting whatever statement that goes against your position.
Duh, the roman legions who act as police. Jesus christ do I have to spell everything out for you?
But you suggested that ALL the legionaries attack the Jedi at once. See the obvious contradiction?
outlast them. The jedi would have to be awake for at least 162 hours to kill every single one.
If each Jedi cuts down a Roman about every second, which is reasonable and maybe even a little slow given that many can move faster than the eye can see, and they could blaster them with automatic blasters, it would take about 100 minutes to cut down every Roman using this simplistic calculations, which is actually shorter than a lot battles.
YouTube video
YouTube video YouTube video
YouTube video
Posting a prank youtube video isn't proof.
the jedi would have to stay awake for 162 hours in order to kill them all.
Proved wrong.
It was an analogy, you retard.
And I was showing you that it was a poor analogy. A better analogy would be if a US Alpha Team soldier with advanced weapons and unlimited ammo fought 6000 zombies who would coming from 10 miles away.
YouTube video
This youtube is just so very useful!
Again, posting a prank youtube video isn't proof.
the spartans had quite a number of factors on their side. this is far from the same thing.
YouTube video
How?
at what point in time? this is the point in time i'm going with. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Jedi_Order#Jedi_Praxeum_.2811_to_18_ABY.29
Burden of proof isn't on me.But then, thanks for playing.
As of FOTJ, which is also the time period of the NJO in this thread.
It's quite clear that you underestimate the Jedi and overestimate the Romans. How does one commander using ancient technology coordinate 1.4 million troops? That's around the size of the US army, and it takes several huge military bases with advanced electronics, generals and many skilled professions to coordinate the US army, and even then things sometimes mess up.
You think about war too simply. Logistics are important, and grouping 1.4 million troops together in ancient times and trying to coordinate them and feed them simply isn't possible. Therefore, they will HAVE to attack in waves, and, as YOU admitted, if they do that (which they will have to) then the Jedi win easily.
There's more to a battle or war then "zomg the Romans have so many soldiers in this scenario!!!!!!!!!". The Jedi will be much more maneuverable than the Romans. They will be able to strike at specific points in the Roman line, and the far sides of the Roman line won't be fast enough to attack; by the time the order to attack is sent the Jedi would've succeeded. The can make gaping holes in the Roman lines using blitzing tactics and Force pushes/lightsaber strikes, disorganizing the Roman formation. If somehow outmatched, the Jedi can retreat (in which they would be far faster than the Romans due to the Force, less armor on and easier coordination) and try again later.
[/quote]
One Free Man, of my post, the most important part is this:
Originally posted by HewhoknowsallThere's more to a battle or war then "zomg the Romans have so many soldiers in this scenario!!!!!!!!!". The Jedi will be much more maneuverable than the Romans. They will be able to strike at specific points in the Roman line, and the far sides of the Roman line won't be fast enough to attack; by the time the order to attack is sent the Jedi would've succeeded. The can make gaping holes in the Roman lines using blitzing tactics and Force pushes/lightsaber strikes, disorganizing the Roman formation. If somehow outmatched, the Jedi can retreat (in which they would be far faster than the Romans due to the Force, less armor on and easier coordination) and try again later.
See? The Jedi with their Force powers, superior training, superior tactics, superior technology and superior maneuverability, all of which are EXTREMELY valuable to a battle or war, easily defeat a numerically superior Roman force by outmaneuvering them and launching devastating attacks on concentrated portions of the Roman formation. The Romans, despite having huge numbers, won't be able to do anything because their maneuverability would be extremely poor if they somehow could put 1.4 million troops in one battle. Sound and visual orders wouldn't work due to the huge distance that an army that large would cover, so they would have to use messengers, and a messenger even on horseback would take a while to run that far and it would tire them, and they could get shot.
The problem is that you aren't that knowledgable on military tactics, so you think "zomg the Romans have more numbers so they win!!!" win the advantages of the Jedi would wtf pwn the Romans with ease.
I'm going to stop arguing with you. You are just copy/pasting previous posts.
I've already said:
yes, the jedi could defeat manageable bite-size waves.
Yes, the jedi could pose as gods.
and
Yes the jedi would die when stood up to the entire legion at once. I've stated that this is the only way the romans could win. As such, this is what i'm arguing for. I'm not arguing that the top two wouldn't happen, but 1,400,000 romans vs the jedi is a jedi slaughter if they are all together.
Consider this my farewell as your poor debate tactics and unwillingness to improve there-on have given you an eternal spot on my ignore list.
Before I go, however, I will send you a pm that states in clearcut, layman's language, exactly what i'm trying to say here.
Originally posted by One Free Man
I'm going to stop arguing with you. You are just copy/pasting previous posts.I've already said:
yes, the jedi could defeat manageable bite-size waves.
Yes, the jedi could pose as gods.
and
Yes the jedi would die when stood up to the entire legion at once. I've stated that this is the only way the romans could win. As such, this is what i'm arguing for. I'm not arguing that the top two wouldn't happen, but 1,400,000 romans vs the jedi is a jedi slaughter if they are all together.
Consider this my farewell as your poor debate tactics and unwillingness to improve there-on have given you an eternal spot on my ignore list.
Before I go, however, I will send you a pm that states in clearcut, layman's language, exactly what i'm trying to say here.
You're IGNORING my argument that it would be logistically impossible for an ancient army to field 1.4 million troops in ONE BATTLE AT ONCE.
See? "if they are all together" wouldn't work for the Romans because their communication abilities would be crap and the Romans would sit there waiting for hours before receiving their orders while miles away on the other side of the Roman line the Romans are getting pwned by the Jedi, and the rest of the 1.4 million troops have to wait to receive orders from a messenger before attacking.
What you probably realize is that YOU'VE LOST. You have NOT provided an argument as to how the Romans put together 1.4 million troops for one battle.
Repeat:
The Romans do NOT have the logistical capabilities to field 1.4 million troops in a single battle and properly communicate and coordinate!
It takes the USA numerous advanced technology, lots of professions, many generals, many bases, a huge chain of command, and TRILLION OF DOLLARS to do that.