Surfer Vs. Orion

Originally posted by Naija boy
Scans of the incident of the abstract being orion hurt with his own power? Moreover surfer has actually broken through the Strangers forcefield and harmed him ( stranger actually verbalizes the pain he was caused). Then for that universal destroying energy thing, for orion it happened off panel and we never see what he actually does to the energy of the bomb or how he gets it to stop. The bomb was also not going to destroy the universe by means of sheer force but did so via tampering with the quantum structure of the universe which would then cause it to collapse in on itself.

Anyhow i did not say that Orion is not better than surfer in some areas, However, i maintain the stance that Surfer by virtue of his more creative and use of his powers in battle and his superiority in areas such as speed make him overall superior. Not by any considerable margin tho.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
I think overall they are a perfect match. Much Like Surfer Thor, Or Thor Orion. Surfer isn't faster than Orion. At least not in travel Speed. Dude traveled from New Genesis to Earth in under a heart beat. That is ridiculous. And The very fact that the A-Bomb could destroy the quantum foundations of the Universe shows it was universal in it's reach. Whether it happend off panel or not, it was already stated that only the AF could contain such power. As far as creative use, Orion tends to blast, but so does surfer. Both have matter manipulated. Both have used shields. Both have used energy manipulation. Both have healed. Both have turned themselves into other things. Both have even manipulated Souls.

For the new genesis thing, isnt new genesis in a parrallel dimension? Hence the reason you need to use a boomtube to get from there to the regular universe. If so then he wouldnt really be able to fly all the way from there without passing through some sort of dimensional portal first in order to enter he regular universe at some unknown point and then fly to earth. Hence judging the actual distance (and consequently speed) involved there would be really difficult. Moreover i was referring to actual combat speed anyways.

Then in regards to the Bomb feat, the bomb was universal in its reach in the sense that it would cause the subsequent collapse of the entire universe in on itself, but as i said before this wasnt through sheer force and not by straight up consuming the universe. Rather its unique energies would cause a special effect in one dimension that would then translate into the physical dimension. The energies Orion himself controlled , did not fill the universe and iirc only surrounded an area around the bomb. Additionally we dont know exactly what orion did to the energies (BFR?) which casts ambiguity onto the feat. Now undoubtedly the feat is still extremely impressive regardless but Surfer certainly has feats that match it (Channeling the crunch energy while already extremely weakened and using it to defeat T and A) and likely exceed it (transmuting a universes worth of soul energy of the unilords universe into cosmic energy).

As far as creative use in battle, Surfer also greatly exceeds orion in that regard. Surfer is far more prone to actually using offensive and environmental matter manip, energy manipulation, and other exotic powers of his within battle.

Originally posted by Naija boy
For the new genesis thing, isnt new genesis in a parrallel dimension? Hence the reason you need to use a boomtube to get from there to the regular universe. If so then he wouldnt really be able to fly all the way from there without passing through some sort of dimensional portal first in order to enter he regular universe at some unknown point and then fly to earth. Hence judging the actual distance (and consequently speed) involved there would be really difficult. Moreover i was referring to actual combat speed anyways.

Then in regards to the Bomb feat, the bomb was universal in its reach in the sense that it would cause the subsequent collapse of the entire universe in on itself, but as i said before this wasnt through sheer force and not by straight up consuming the universe. Rather its unique energies would cause a special effect in one dimension that would then translate into the physical dimension. The energies Orion himself controlled , did not fill the universe and iirc only surrounded an area around the bomb. Additionally we dont know exactly what orion did to the energies (BFR?) which casts ambiguity onto the feat. Now undoubtedly the feat is still extremely impressive regardless but Surfer certainly has feats that match it (Channeling the crunch energy while already extremely weakened and using it to defeat T and A) and likely exceed it (transmuting a universes worth of soul energy of the unilords universe into cosmic energy).

As far as creative use in battle, Surfer also greatly exceeds orion in that regard. Surfer is far more prone to actually using offensive and environmental matter manip, energy manipulation, and other exotic powers of his within battle.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Soul Energy is an entirely different thing. And It has already been shown in the DCU that the Quantum Field extends thru out the DCU and you have to manipulate all of it to cause universal change/destruction. (Captain Atom Series). The Quantum Bomb is a universal feat. Orion had stopped the bomb once it had already been activated. So it was Universal reaching. Surfer may be more prone to more exotic powers within battle, But Orion is more prone to More potent Blasts and he still has his Mother box which will, in combine with Orion's own Matter manip and Energy manip powers, negate most of Surfer exotic attacks. And New Genesis is in a Parallel Universe but for some reason, if you fly at crazy speeds, you can cross from one p
lace to the next with no boom tube. Supergirl also did it when she had the Powers of and Earth Born Angel.

Not sure what u mean by soul energy is an entirely different thing or how that is relevant. Id like to see the example in the captain atom series u are referring to tho. Moreover given that surfer has feats on that level as ive pointed out, it really doesnt matter either way. Orion doesnt have superior blast power nor speed and manoevrability (especially in combat) and while he does have matter manip abilites of his own, surfers greater skill and propensity for using them would still give him an added advantage (even if orion will be able to put up a some defense against it). Oh and since it is in a parrallel universe u would likely have to break through one dimension to get to the other (hence the reason that u need a boomtube normally) so even if flyin fast enough can enable u to do that, the distance is still ambiguous because it would depend on where exactly in u first emerged within the other universe.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Not sure what u mean by soul energy is an entirely different thing or how that is relevant. Id like to see the example in the captain atom series u are referring to tho. Moreover given that surfer has feats on that level as ive pointed out, it really doesnt matter either way. Orion doesnt have superior blast power nor speed and manoevrability (especially in combat) and while he does have matter manip abilites of his own, surfers greater skill and propensity for using them would still give him an added advantage (even if orion will be able to put up a some defense against it). Oh and since it is in a parrallel universe u would likely have to break through one dimension to get to the other (hence the reason that u need a boomtube normally) so even if flyin fast enough can enable u to do that, the distance is still ambiguous because it would depend on where exactly in u first emerged within the other universe.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Ill look up the scan but, it was made very clear that he few from New Genesis to the Earth in a under a second. I do believe Orion has Greater Blast Power than The Surfer. Surfer manipulates other energy in vast amounts but Thor and Orion both Channel Vast energy from within themselves. Also, Don't forget, The Mother Boxes also matter Manipulate and control energy and Orion has used the boxes several times. And Orion can self amp. He can amp his physical stats with his AF and he can amp his stats and Power levels by growing Giant.

Ill await said scan. Surfer manipulating other energy in vast amounts really doesnt show some sign of weaker blast output. Realistically it is preferable because it shows he can rely on external energy sources to draw power from in addition to his own (As seen in the instance where he drew energy from all over the cosmos and than rained said energy on his opponent). Further he does have huge energy reserves of his own so its a win win anyhow u look at it. And yes i do know that motherboxes can matter manipulate hecen the reason i i do believe that orion can put up a good defense against it. However surfers greater skill and propensity to use it in battle would keep orion on the defensive and would leave him open to toher attacks such as board blitzes.Surfer can also amp himself physically as well as his punches and strikes with energy (as we saw in his recent thrashing of BRB) and in melee, his board again is once a very lethal offensive weapon.

Scans of Orion growing giant of his own volition in battle within regular universe? Even if capable this is certanly not something that would seem in character for him.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Ill await said scan. Surfer manipulating other energy in vast amounts really doesnt show some sign of weaker blast output. Realistically it is preferable because it shows he can rely on external energy sources to draw power from in addition to his own (As seen in the instance where he drew energy from all over the cosmos and than rained said energy on his opponent). Further he does have huge energy reserves of his own so its a win win anyhow u look at it. And yes i do know that motherboxes can matter manipulate hecen the reason i i do believe that orion can put up a good defense against it. However surfers greater skill and propensity to use it in battle would keep orion on the defensive and would leave him open to toher attacks such as board blitzes.Surfer can also amp himself physically as well as his punches and strikes with energy (as we saw in his recent thrashing of BRB) and in melee, his board again is once a very lethal offensive weapon.

Scans of Orion growing giant of his own volition in battle within regular universe? Even if capable this is certanly not something that would seem in character for him.

Surfer takes this in any way

Originally posted by Nihilist
Surfer takes this in any way

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Excellent, well thought out, constructive response. I like Naija's responses better. 🙂

Originally posted by lightyeargee
IF the Mother Box is working on Defensive Matter Manip and Energy Manip, Then that leaves Orion to use his powers on the offense. IF we are going to talk about character,then it is certainly not in character for Surfer to use his board as a lethal Offensive Weapon. Orion Grew Giant Sized when angry at Darksied and amped his energy so much that he blew a chunk out of the galaxy sized Apokolips. As for the Other time he grew, when he fought DS in countdown. He amped his physical and energy stats. Also, He unleashed his God powers when he fought the Infinity Man in DOTNG. If he has to, Orion would go God mode on Surfer. Surfer is all over the board as far as External energy is concerned. Some Times he goes mad from one star, other times he manipulates vast cosmic energies. I'll take his average. I don't see either character as having any advantage over the other when you look at the overal.

Actually, yes it is VERY MUCH in character for surfer to use his board as an offensive weapon, he has done it numerous times ( i ca n provide scans of this) with Godhunter being the most recent. Furthermore Orion going giant size perhaps once on Apokolips shows how out of character it is for him. Also i would actually like to see the scans of the incident to see if there is any extra context surrounding his growing giant and if it was down to his volition and will. Im not an orion expert but iirc his giant form is his true form God form and hence he uses/needs a boomtube to become regualr size while in the regular universe. Him simply willing himself to grow huge in the regular universe has never happened to my knwoledge. Also actually surfer isnt all over the board as far as external energy is concerned. He has far more good and even great feats than he does lower ones.

Surfer Seems more durable, Orion heals fast and is almost as Durable. Surfer seems faster in flight, Orion seems faster on foot. Surfer Blasts more, Orion Blasts Harder. Surfer has his board as a weapon, Orion is stronger and a better fighter. Nieither can transmute the other. And Both can Amp. I do think Orion can amp beyond what Surfer can but, that's just my own personal Opinion. I also Believe Orion=Thor=Surfer=Earthman>>Superman. 🙂

Aside durability surfer also does have very good healing abilities and can draw on energy from nearly anywhere in order to heal himself ( scans of this are also available). Surfer is faster in flight and in combat. I have not seen anything to indicate orion blasts harder. Indeed Orion is stronger and a better fighter, but Surfers near indestructable far FTL board serves as a weapon that can be used while he is attacking through other means and therefore gives surfer an alternative lethal method of attack that can be used simultaneously and hence not only is it capable of inflicting serious damage on its own. but its constant presence will open up other attacking options for surfer. This provides a much greater advantage than simple superior martial arts prowess.

Orion

orion has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Orion is just as versatile.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
orion has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Orion is just as versatile.

Originally posted by BattleMage
Surfer has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Surfer is just as versatile.

Originally posted by BattleMage
Surfer has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Surfer is just as versatile.

I never said Surfer wasn't versatile.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
orion has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Orion is just as versatile.

Nah.

Surfer is more versatile. He consistently does "new" shiet when he makes his apperances. I'm not saying Orion is not versatile, but Surfer has done more if you go feat for feat.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
orion has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Orion is just as versatile.