Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Surfer is more versatile. He consistently does "new" shiet when he makes his apperances. I'm not saying Orion is not versatile, but Surfer has done more if you go feat for feat.
Maybe through sheer appearances, perhaps, but they are basically about the same. What exactly has Surfer done that Orion hasn't?
Surfer is definitely more versatile on a regular basis, yes, but in a fight that's going to be irrelevant. Orion is going to be able to counter essentially anything the Surfer brings to the table in terms of versatility -- he doesn't have matter manipulation to the Surfer's level, but he's got enough of it that Surfer isn't going to be manipulating his body, for instance. He's got BETTER teleportation, BETTER healing, more frequent intangibility, as good cosmic senses (thanks to Mother Box), etc.
Orion is a better fighter, he's more tenancious, he's tougher (tougher being distinct from more durable) and he's got at least comparable energy outputs. I say he wins, in one hell of a fight, against classic Surfer. Orion 6/10.
Originally posted by Naija boy
For the new genesis thing, isnt new genesis in a parrallel dimension?
Another universe, actually. The 'greater' universe.
Hence the reason you need to use a boomtube to get from there to the regular universe.
Originally, you'd be right on the money. As Kirby introduced it, it was clear that the Boom Tube was meant to replace the Rainbow Bridge, destroyed during Ragnarok. Other methods of more mundane teleportation were demonstrated by Barda and the Forever People (Phasing Out, electron highway), but overtime the Boom Tube has come to be used for both interdimensional and spatial teleportation.
Either way he's teleporting, though, and does so regularly and tactically on numerous occasions. It just makes a lot of sense, given the ease with which he can do it.
Moreover i was referring to actual combat speed anyways.
The examples of Surfer's combat speed, legitimate examples (rather than the stuff that gets passed off as combat speed...rushing and what not) are few and far between, about as many as Orion's I'd wager.
Then in regards to the Bomb feat, the bomb was universal in its reach in the sense that it would cause the subsequent collapse of the entire universe in on itself, but as i said before this wasnt through sheer force and not by straight up consuming the universe. Rather its unique energies would cause a special effect in one dimension that would then translate into the physical dimension. The energies Orion himself controlled , did not fill the universe and iirc only surrounded an area around the bomb. Additionally we dont know exactly what orion did to the energies (BFR?) which casts ambiguity onto the feat.
It certainly wasn't BFR, no. It was specifically said that only the Astro Force was capable of counteracting the energies wielded by the device.
The rest of your argument feels nitpicky to me -- how else would a bomb destroy an entire universe, save by acting on a fundamental level? Any other type of bomb/blast would be limited by the speed of light, and would take billions of years to destroy the universe.
I think the intent of the scene/feat is pretty clear.
Now undoubtedly the feat is still extremely impressive regardless but Surfer certainly has feats that match it (Channeling the crunch energy while already extremely weakened and using it to defeat T and A)
That...does not come close. We know that the energies wielded by the bomb were enough to destroy an entire universe, on a fundamental level. Orion stopped it, and was fine. Surfer accessed some amount of universal energy, an unknown amount, and the act of it nearly killed him (and would have, if not for the intervention of Galactus).
and likely exceed it (transmuting a universes worth of soul energy of the unilords universe into cosmic energy).
Given the sheer number of caveats associated with this 'feat' - needing to absorb blackbody (before absorbing black body Surfer could barely process a single soul), having been changed by being in a different universe, the fact that it may not have been 616 Surfer at all, etc - I'd say this claim is dubious at best, and intentionally misleading at worst.
As far as creative use in battle, Surfer also greatly exceeds orion in that regard. Surfer is far more prone to actually using offensive and environmental matter manip, energy manipulation, and other exotic powers of his within battle.
But he's also prone to being exceedingly ineffective in battle against warrior-like foes such as Thor. He's missing the spirit and skill. Orion does what he needs to do to get the job done, and nothing more, I agree, but it's because it serves him well.
Originally posted by Desaad
Another universe, actually. The 'greater' universe.
Originally, you'd be right on the money. As Kirby introduced it, it was clear that the Boom Tube was meant to replace the Rainbow Bridge, destroyed during Ragnarok. Other methods of more mundane teleportation were demonstrated by Barda and the Forever People (Phasing Out, electron highway), but overtime the Boom Tube has come to be used for both interdimensional and spatial teleportation.
This is actually in agreement with my earlier suggestion of interdimensional travel/teleportation being needed to move from fourth world to the regular universe.
The examples of Surfer's combat speed, legitimate examples (rather than the stuff that gets passed off as combat speed...rushing and what not) are few and far between, about as many as Orion's I'd wager.
This is just categorically false, and im willing to do a feat by feat comparison if you wish. Surfer has examples of attacking while manoevring in a non-linear manner at superspeed, these are much more than just "rushes". And I'd wager that in totality his combat feats are more impressive than Orions.
It certainly wasn't BFR, no. It was specifically said that only the Astro Force was capable of counteracting the energies wielded by the device. The rest of your argument feels nitpicky to me -- how else would a bomb destroy an entire universe, save by acting on a fundamental level? Any other type of bomb/blast would be limited by the speed of light, and would take billions of years to destroy the universe. I think the intent of the scene/feat is pretty clear.
I only suggested bfr as a possibility since we dont actually see what happened. But that point wasnt a core part of my argument hence the reason i didnt press it. However your attempt rationalize that affecting the universe at the fundamental level is the only way a bomb would be able to destroy the universe is extremely faulty. Firstly these are comics and so attempting to apply such reasoning to them is doomed to futility. Not only that but we have seen such explosions capable of consuming galaxies (which would already make your suggestion invalid) as well as even universes. However this is all tangential to the core of the argument anyways so its of little relevance.
That...does not come close. We know that the energies wielded by the bomb were enough to destroy an entire universe, on a fundamental level. Orion stopped it, and was fine. Surfer accessed some amount of universal energy, an unknown amount, and the act of it nearly killed him (and would have, if not for the intervention of Galactus).
IIRC, the energies of the bomb had just begun radiating from it and it was the portion of energy that had radiated that orion somehow counteracted and then sealed off the bomb. Surfer however personally wielded the universal energies of the crunch while already in a near death state and used them to destroy T and A. Yes he almost died but he was firstly in terrible condition when he attempted the feat, and secondly we get a good view of the level of difficulty of actually wielding the crunch energies from Galactus himself who mentions that even he cannot long withstand the manipulating them (so we know that the crunch can consume near abstract entities like Galactus as well). Considering all that, and the fact the nature of orions and surfers feats greatly differ, then Surfer nearly dying from doing the feat does not really diminish it at all and they are certainly at comparable levels.
Given the sheer number of caveats associated with this 'feat' - needing to absorb blackbody (before absorbing black body Surfer could barely process a single soul), having been changed by being in a different universe, the fact that it may not have been 616 Surfer at all, etc - I'd say this claim is dubious at best, and intentionally misleading at worst.
Actually in regards to this feat, the only real point of contention is its canonicity and i believe a case can certainly be made for it. Surfers absorption of the blackbody or his presence in a different universe play no roles in the performance of this feat as surfer specifically mentions that its his own power (PC) that enables him to transform energy into any form he may wish.
But he's also prone to being exceedingly ineffective in battle against warrior-like foes such as Thor. He's missing the spirit and skill. Orion does what he needs to do to get the job done, and nothing more, I agree, but it's because it serves him well.
If anything, Surfers supposed "ineffectiveness" against Thor (which is a spurious claim in and of itself and even moreso since this is a forum battle) has to do with thors propensity for energy absorption using mjolnir (as seen in his initial battle with against thor) not some abstract warrior persona. Really if ur referring to Thor in blood and thunder then at the very least, that was thor not operating the way he is normally portrayed and (amp or no amp) and he can therefore certainly NOT be used as some sort of parrallel for orion. Moreover in a forum battle "warrior spirit" serves as an even flatter argument with the existence of the no pis and full capacity rules. Additionally still, Surfers destruction of BRB further refutes any supposed problems he has with "warriors" (not that such reasoning had any legs to stand on in the first place).
Originally posted by Naija boyI totally argee 👆
This is actually in agreement with my earlier suggestion of interdimensional travel/teleportation being needed to move from fourth world to the regular universe.This is just categorically false, and im willing to do a feat by feat comparison if you wish. Surfer has examples of attacking while manoevring in a non-linear manner at superspeed, these are much more than just "rushes". And I'd wager that in totality his combat feats are more impressive than Orions.
I only suggested bfr as a possibility since we dont actually see what happened. But that point wasnt a core part of my argument hence the reason i didnt press it. However your attempt rationalize that affecting the universe at the fundamental level is the only way a bomb would be able to destroy the universe is extremely faulty. Firstly these are comics and so attempting to apply such reasoning to them is doomed to futility. Not only that but we have seen such explosions capable of consuming galaxies (which would already make your suggestion invalid) as well as even universes. However this is all tangential to the core of the argument anyways so its of little relevance.
IIRC, the energies of the bomb had just begun radiating from it and it was the portion of energy that had radiated that orion somehow counteracted and then sealed off the bomb. Surfer however personally wielded the universal energies of the crunch while already in a near death state and used them to destroy T and A. Yes he almost died but he was firstly in terrible condition when he attempted the feat, and secondly we get a good view of the level of difficulty of actually wielding the crunch energies from Galactus himself who mentions that even he cannot long withstand the manipulating them (so we know that the crunch can consume near abstract entities like Galactus as well). Considering all that, and the fact the nature of orions and surfers feats greatly differ, then Surfer nearly dying from doing the feat does not really diminish it at all and they are certainly at comparable levels.
Actually in regards to this feat, the only real point of contention is its canonicity and i believe a case can certainly be made for it. Surfers absorption of the blackbody or his presence in a different universe play no roles in the performance of this feat as surfer specifically mentions that its his own power (PC) that enables him to transform energy into any form he may wish.
If anything, Surfers supposed "ineffectiveness" against Thor (which is a spurious claim in and of itself and even moreso since this is a forum battle) has to do with thors propensity for energy absorption using mjolnir (as seen in his initial battle with against thor) not some abstract warrior persona. Really if ur referring to Thor in blood and thunder then at the very least, that was thor not operating the way he is normally portrayed and (amp or no amp) and he can therefore certainly NOT be used as some sort of parrallel for orion. Moreover in a forum battle "warrior spirit" serves as an even flatter argument with the existence of the no pis and full capacity rules. Additionally still, Surfers destruction of BRB further refutes any supposed problems he has with "warriors" (not that such reasoning had any legs to stand on in the first place).
Originally posted by Naija boyIf Surfer has had Problems with Thor because of Thor's energy absorbing power, then How is he going to do against Orion who walks thru energy wielders with ease, and Manipulates Vast amounts of energy via his own AF and His Mother box? He has Dual Energy absorbtion and manipulation powers. Come now. You made the case that Orion is even better matched against Surfer than Thor is. Also, Orion Flew from New Gen to Earth. didn't boom tube. it even says so in the comic panel. Flew.
This is actually in agreement with my earlier suggestion of interdimensional travel/teleportation being needed to move from fourth world to the regular universe.This is just categorically false, and im willing to do a feat by feat comparison if you wish. Surfer has examples of attacking while manoevring in a non-linear manner at superspeed, these are much more than just "rushes". And I'd wager that in totality his combat feats are more impressive than Orions.
I only suggested bfr as a possibility since we dont actually see what happened. But that point wasnt a core part of my argument hence the reason i didnt press it. However your attempt rationalize that affecting the universe at the fundamental level is the only way a bomb would be able to destroy the universe is extremely faulty. Firstly these are comics and so attempting to apply such reasoning to them is doomed to futility. Not only that but we have seen such explosions capable of consuming galaxies (which would already make your suggestion invalid) as well as even universes. However this is all tangential to the core of the argument anyways so its of little relevance.
IIRC, the energies of the bomb had just begun radiating from it and it was the portion of energy that had radiated that orion somehow counteracted and then sealed off the bomb. Surfer however personally wielded the universal energies of the crunch while already in a near death state and used them to destroy T and A. Yes he almost died but he was firstly in terrible condition when he attempted the feat, and secondly we get a good view of the level of difficulty of actually wielding the crunch energies from Galactus himself who mentions that even he cannot long withstand the manipulating them (so we know that the crunch can consume near abstract entities like Galactus as well). Considering all that, and the fact the nature of orions and surfers feats greatly differ, then Surfer nearly dying from doing the feat does not really diminish it at all and they are certainly at comparable levels.
Actually in regards to this feat, the only real point of contention is its canonicity and i believe a case can certainly be made for it. Surfers absorption of the blackbody or his presence in a different universe play no roles in the performance of this feat as surfer specifically mentions that its his own power (PC) that enables him to transform energy into any form he may wish.
If anything, Surfers supposed "ineffectiveness" against Thor (which is a spurious claim in and of itself and even moreso since this is a forum battle) has to do with thors propensity for energy absorption using mjolnir (as seen in his initial battle with against thor) not some abstract warrior persona. Really if ur referring to Thor in blood and thunder then at the very least, that was thor not operating the way he is normally portrayed and (amp or no amp) and he can therefore certainly NOT be used as some sort of parrallel for orion. Moreover in a forum battle "warrior spirit" serves as an even flatter argument with the existence of the no pis and full capacity rules. Additionally still, Surfers destruction of BRB further refutes any supposed problems he has with "warriors" (not that such reasoning had any legs to stand on in the first place).
Originally posted by Naija boy
This is actually in agreement with my earlier suggestion of interdimensional travel/teleportation being needed to move from fourth world to the regular universe.
Yes, I was backing up one part of your claim while clarifying the nature of the Boom Tube and the way it's evolved over the years.
This is just categorically false, and im willing to do a feat by feat comparison if you wish. Surfer has examples of attacking while manoevring in a non-linear manner at superspeed, these are much more than just "rushes". And I'd wager that in totality his combat feats are more impressive than Orions.
And I'm sure you'd bring in plenty of examples that you'd argue as Super Speed perceptions, and I'd argue that only 2 or 3 of those were actually legitimate, and I'd bring in evidence of Green Lanterns explicitly using human perceptions to perform similar feats, and you'd counter by claiming that small differences make all the difference, etc.
I've been down this road many times before, and I'm not too terribly keen on going down it again. Suffice it to say, my definition of 'super speed perceptions' is probably a great deal more particular than yours, and there aren't so many characters I view as actually having them.
And yes, I'm sure you'd have more examples of Surfer using true super speed perceptions than would I for Orion, but would they be a greater percentage of his appearances? Given that he's got hundreds more, I mean to say.
I only suggested bfr as a possibility since we dont actually see what happened.
Yeah, I know why you did it. You were searching for a way to cast doubt on the feat, and being careful not to make any outright assertions in case someone called you on it.
There is no way that BFR would have been a possibility, when everything else indicates that it's the nature and power of the Astro Force - a primarily destructive energy - that allowed the feat to be accomplished.
Just because it happened off panel doesn't mean that I can claim that, for instance, he actually contained the energies in the palm of his hand while simultaneously trapping Mageddon at the edge of space time and warding off Imperiex.
However your attempt rationalize that affecting the universe at the fundamental level is the only way a bomb would be able to destroy the universe is extremely faulty.
No, your attempt at casting doubt on the feat by making bizarre - and ultimately nonsensical - distinctions as to the method of the destruction of the fabric of reality is without merit, so far as I can tell.
Firstly these are comics and so attempting to apply such reasoning to them is doomed to futility.
You opened up the topic by arguing that the method by which the universe was destroyed was somehow less valid than other methods by which the universe might be destroyed.
I have no interest in dissecting the physics of universal destruction. I'm content to take it as it was presented -- a bomb that was set to destroy the universe could only be contained by the energies of the Astro Force.
IIRC, the energies of the bomb had just begun radiating from it and it was the portion of energy that had radiated that orion somehow counteracted and then sealed off the bomb.
Wow, what happened to it being off panel? What happened to it being impossible to reason out the method, nature, and mechanism of the bomb and the bomb's energies?
For what it's worth, the bomb had apparently released enough where every being across the universe was feeling the effects of it.
Surfer however personally wielded the universal energies of the crunch while already in a near death state and used them to destroy T and A. Yes he almost died but he was firstly in terrible condition when he attempted the feat, and secondly we get a good view of the level of difficulty of actually wielding the crunch energies from Galactus himself who mentions that even he cannot long withstand the manipulating them (so we know that the crunch can consume near abstract entities like Galactus as well).
How long is 'not long' to a being like Galactus, who has existed longer than the universe has existed?
It's comics, after all -- any attempt to understand such beings is ultimately a fruitless endeavor, because it's not the real world.
Right? 🙂
Considering all that, and the fact the nature of orions and surfers feats greatly differ, then Surfer nearly dying from doing the feat does not really diminish it at all and they are certainly at comparable levels.
Why are they are comparable levels? How does the fact that they differ somehow equalize them? That's insanely wrong headed. One of them is a feat of energy absorption, the other is a feat of energy generation. One of them is a feat of universal scale, the other is unquantifiable (yes, unquantifiable, given the number of things that have been known to hurt, weaken, or nearly kill Galactus).
Actually in regards to this feat, the only real point of contention is its canonicity and i believe a case can certainly be made for it. Surfers absorption of the blackbody or his presence in a different universe play no roles in the performance of this feat as surfer specifically mentions that its his own power (PC) that enables him to transform energy into any form he may wish.
No, canonicty is not the only point of contention. The events of the series itself make it clear that the Blackbody boosted his powers dramatically. Think about it, before he had the black body he could barely manipulate/absorb the energy of a single soul. Afterwards, he was able to perform the above feat (nevermind the fact that the souls in question came WILLINGLY in an effort to defeat the Uni-Lord, casting doubt as to how much actual manipulation the Surfer was doing).
And, again, while certainly an argument can be made that it's in continuity, an equally compelling argument can (and has) been made for it's status as an other universe tale.
And by the way, as evidenced with the Watcher, entering the other universe does change the nature of the power of cosmic beings.
If anything, Surfers supposed "ineffectiveness" against Thor (which is a spurious claim in and of itself
If you're going to make an effort to belittle my claims, make the effort, please.
Why is my claim spurious? Some actual reasoning would be lovely.
and even moreso since this is a forum battle) has to do with thors propensity for energy absorption using mjolnir (as seen in his initial battle with against thor) not some abstract warrior persona.
In Surfer's first battle against Thor - in which he had the power of Loki added to his own - Stan Lee specifically has him stating that the power within Mjolnir is greater than his own Power Cosmic.
It really doesn't get any more direct than that.
As to energy absorption claim, I'd remind you that in their one conclusive battle Thor didn't once use energy absorption, just hit him in the face with the hammer and knocked him out.
Really if ur referring to Thor in blood and thunder then at the very least, that was thor not operating the way he is normally portrayed and (amp or no amp) and he can therefore certainly NOT be used as some sort of parrallel for orion.
It was Thor acting STUPIDER than usual, and wilder, against a Surfer who was angry and explicitly states that he's trying to take Thor out.
What else do you want?
Moreover in a forum battle "warrior spirit" serves as an even flatter argument with the existence of the no pis and full capacity rules.
None of those rules include a change of the Surfer's personality, nor an increase in his skill or motivation level.
Additionally still, Surfers destruction of BRB further refutes any supposed problems he has with "warriors" (not that such reasoning had any legs to stand on in the first place).
Was BRB knocked out? Was that a conclusive battle?
Of course not.
Surfer's problems against Black Panther, for instance, DO seem to indicate an issue with skilled, canny warriors. He's had similar problems against Midnight Sun (despite being far less powerful, with no offensive abilities) and other such canny fighters.
No, it isn't universal, and I acknowledge that, but he's an unskilled pacifist. It's natural that he's going to be at a disadvantage against a highly skilled, highly trained warrior who has been single handidly fighting off Apokoliptan armies since he could walk.
Originally posted by lightyeargee
If Surfer has had Problems with Thor because of Thor's energy absorbing power, then How is he going to do against Orion who walks thru energy wielders with ease, and Manipulates Vast amounts of energy via his own AF and His Mother box? He has Dual Energy absorbtion and manipulation powers. Come now. You made the case that Orion is even better matched against Surfer than Thor is. Also, Orion Flew from New Gen to Earth. didn't boom tube. it even says so in the comic panel. Flew.
That's not really possible. You can't get from New Genesis to Earth without a Boom Tube, or something similar. Even magical teleportation has its problems, and while the Guardians have accomplished it before even GL rings didn't seem up to the task.
Originally posted by lightyeargee
If Surfer has had Problems with Thor because of Thor's energy absorbing power, then How is he going to do against Orion who walks thru energy wielders with ease, and Manipulates Vast amounts of energy via his own AF and His Mother box? He has Dual Energy absorbtion and manipulation powers. Come now. You made the case that Orion is even better matched against Surfer than Thor is. Also, Orion Flew from New Gen to Earth. didn't boom tube. it even says so in the comic panel. Flew.
By having problems with Thor due to energy absorbing powers i mean it makes the match much more even between them. In no way am i referring to him being outmatched just because thor is a great energy absorber (better than orion for that matter). Ive already mentioned that this is a close and therefore pretty even match therefore that entire point is moot. As for the boomtube thing ill await the scan and see my earlier posts explaining why it is ambiguous regardless. Moreover that feat adds little to this discussion anyway as it wouldnt contribute towards the outcome of this match.
Originally posted by DesaadEarth Angel Supergirl did it as well. She flew there with no Boom tube and no Tp.
That's not really possible. You can't get from New Genesis to Earth without a Boom Tube, or something similar. Even magical teleportation has its problems, and while the Guardians have accomplished it before even GL rings didn't seem up to the task.
Originally posted by Naija boyOrion's Best energy Absorbtion feat Universal in level. Plus He's got the MB that does it even better with unreal computer intelligence. Double Absorbing power.
By having problems with Thor due to energy absorbing powers i mean it makes the match much more even between them. In no way am i referring to him being outmatched just because thor is a great energy absorber (better than orion for that matter). Ive already mentioned that this is a close and therefore pretty even match therefore that entire point is moot. As for the boomtube thing ill await the scan and see my earlier posts explaining why it is ambiguous regardless. Moreover that feat adds little to this discussion anyway as it wouldnt contribute towards the outcome of this match.
Originally posted by lightyeargee
Earth Angel Supergirl did it as well. She flew there with no Boom tube and no Tp.
She teleported, magically, and as a result was the size of an insect.
Characters have done it without a Boom Tube, but it's rare. And none of them have ever done it, to the best of my knowledge, without dimension-crossing technology (barring, perhaps, the Conway run of "Return.."😉.
Because the New Gods are in a different, separate universe. You can't get there via anything approaching normal means. It's not a matter of flying fast enough, you have to cross serious dimensional barriers.
And if Final Crisis is to be counted, no mortal as EVER really crossed into the NG universe.
Originally posted by amnesia
surfer isn't a ginger, Orion is.Surfer ftw.
GINGERS HAVE SOULS!
Originally posted by lightyeargee
Orion's Best energy Absorbtion feat Universal in level. Plus He's got the MB that does it even better with unreal computer intelligence. Double Absorbing power.
To be clear, that wasn't an energy absorption feat. That was Orion matching and containing the energies, specifically because the Astro Force was the only energy powerful enough to do so.
Orion has very few energy absorption feats. Mother Box allows them, but I certainly wouldn't count on it in a battle, and certainly nothing to the level that Thor or the Surfer have in their record.
Originally posted by DesaadOf Course Not. They have longer Records.
To be clear, that wasn't an energy absorption feat. That was Orion matching and containing the energies, specifically because the Astro Force was the only energy powerful enough to do so.Orion has very few energy absorption feats. Mother Box allows them, but I certainly wouldn't count on it in a battle, and certainly nothing to the level that Thor or the Surfer have in their record.
Originally posted by Desaad
GINGERS HAVE SOULS!
south park says differently.
Yes, but their highs are also much higher.
If Orion had even one thing on the level of, say, Thor absorbing the death bomb that could destroy 1/5th of the universe, I'd be more inclined to accept that there is a parity there.
But he doesn't. He has almost nothing of the sort to his name, only minor things here and there, and almost never tactically (ie, why not just absorb the sunlight out of Superman's cells? Or out of Lightray?).
It's a Lightray thing, not a Orion thing.