VP
Thanks for the video link. It shows there is in fact a period of time during the fight where nobody knows whats happening and can only assume.
😂 😂 😂
I post a comprehensive analysis on why the entire scene is non-canon and your only response is "lulz we can only asum wut hapined in butwean!"
If that were the case, then what we do see would fit in with the rest of the script, wouldn't it?
Spoiler:
But it doesn't.
Originally posted by Gideon
I post a comprehensive analysis on why the entire scene is non-canon and your only response is "lulz we can only asum wut hapined in butwean!"
Your opinion that that scene in ROTS is non-canon?
I thought you were claiming to know what happened during that space of time.
Catchy insult.
Vorpal Ruin
Your opinion that that scene in ROTS is non-canon?I thought you were claiming to know what happened during that space of time.
Catchy insult.
The... entire... scene is non-canon. The whole thing. From Yoda's 'ferocious assault' to Palpatine lowering the pod to look for Yoda, contradicts what we see in the movie.
Is is... non-canon. Understand?
Originally posted by Gideon
Where did I claim that?
Wasn't sure which claim you were referring to.
Originally posted by Gideon
😐What sort of ferocious assault would it be, then? According to the script, the last time we saw Yoda and Palpatine fighting, they were doing so with lightsabers. Not to mention there'd be no other reason for Yoda or Palpatine to keep their lightsabers ignited and at the ready if it was strictly a Force duel at that point. Likewise, if it were telekinesis, and both combatants were confined to the limited proximity of the Chancellor's podium, wouldn't a 'ferocious [telekinetic] assault' have thrown Palpatine off the side instead of nudge him a fraction?
You were not referring to this as happening during the gap in the movie?
Originally posted by Gideon
The... entire... scene is non-canon. The whole thing. From Yoda's 'ferocious assault' to Palpatine lowering the pod to look for Yoda, contradicts what we see in the movie.Is is... [b]non-canon
. Understand? [/B]
Scene in the movie?
It just doesn't work Gideon. Anything that doesn't directly contradict what we see onscreen remains canon. If part of a scene directly contradicts it (such as the placement of anakin in the windu/sidious fight) the REST of the scene is STILL canon. The only thing noncanon is the description of Anakin's placement fromt he novel. Its only the contradictions that don't work.
In this case, we have a cutaway in the movie. At the beginning of the cutaway, Sidious has his lightsaber. When we come back, he doesn't any more. The events where he lost that lightsaber are described in the script, and NOTHING contradicts that. That part is untouchable. You haven't even begun to bring an argument against THAT.
Your challenge can rest solely on the line about Yoda overpowering sidious, and then jumping away.
You have worked from an opinion that Yoda would never make such a mistake, so therefore it WASN'T a mistake, and instead described a different Yoda than we see resolved to kill Sidious in the movie.
to this:
1. We don't see inside Yoda's head during the fight in the movie. For all we see onscreen. he changed his mind during the fight, and became less resolved.
The movie gives no suggestion that this is correct, but it makes no statement that it is incorrect. If we have another canon source(the script) that suggests he changed his mind, we don't rule the script non-canon because Yoda didnt' stop in the movie onscreen and say "I am now less resolved to kill Sidious than I was." The script(if your interpretaton of his actions are correct, and I am of the opinion that your interpretation is flawed) suggests Yoda hesitated for some reason. So therefore he did.
However, I am of the opinion that Yoda didn't advance on sidious because of these words from the novel.
Pg. 396-397He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born...The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the force...He knew at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.
Hmmmm, Yoda though. A problem this is...
So the script fits. And until the script DOESN'T fit. It remains canon. Because script forces a change to our long-standing interpretation of their relative positions in the fight (Sidious claims a strategic advantage from the terrain) does NOT make it non-canon.
Honestly, i'm surprised you are challenging this at all. That scene from the script coincides almost perfectly with the cutaway to mustafar from the movie. It fills in holes, it does not create them.
And only the bolded portions are non-canon. This scene begins during the cut-away to mustafar:
Originally posted by Gideon
😐203 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMRER-MAIN ARENA-NIGHT
YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.
The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.
YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.
YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod.
Camera pans back to Yoda and Sidious:
Originally posted by GideonPALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.
YODA leaps away from the pods. He uses the Force to hold one pod suspended in the air. The pod spins and YODA throws it back at PALPATINE, who leaps away at the last moment.
The above portion is PERFECTLY canon
Originally posted by GideonYODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air
and throwing him back hard against the Podium.The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber. YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwardsoff the podium.YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.[/i]
With the exceptions of those two struck lines, (11 words)
That entire scene is canon
Originally posted by Gideon^ This, sir, is non-canon. It deviates from the film at various points and is, thus, non-canon. [/B]
Only the 11 words on non-canon. Everything else stands.
What sort of ferocious assault would it be, then? According to the script, the last time we saw Yoda and Palpatine fighting, they were doing so with lightsabers.
And so you assume they were still doing so still? Whats that saying of Nemesis' again?
There's nothing to suggest that the 'ferocious assault' was done through the Force, since Palpatine wouldn't have dropped his lightsaber had it not been in his hands, which indicates that it was a lightsaber duel in which Yoda's 'ferocious assault' was dealt.
Or it could have that Palpatine dropped the saber to deal with Yoda's telekinetic assault. It's just as possible that it was Force-related as saber related.
N
And so you assume they were still doing so still? Whats that saying of Nemesis' again?
Anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation bears the burden of proof. I've already told you how it is implausible that it was a telekinetic assault: they were dueling with lightsabers before the scene cut away and, when it returned, standing on a relatively confined space (the Chancellor's podium) -- which is a dubious location for some sort of epic telekinetic battle. Palpatine would have been thrown off the podium.
N
Or it could have that Palpatine dropped the saber to deal with Yoda's telekinetic assault. It's just as possible that it was Force-related as saber related.
No, it's not. The fact that they were dueling with lightsabers prior to the change in scene and the location of the duel (the Chancellor's podum) makes it impossible for such a duel to take place.
Sorry, TJ, but the script's account contradicts the movie (which is the higher source). It contradicts Yoda's stated intentions, his noted tactical acumen and combat experience, and it contradicts the movie's own choreography. Until you rebut each and every point with canonical sources, I'm not interested in this discussion any longer. Respond to all of it and PM me, and we may continue. But just as the novelization defies the movie at certain points (and is, therefore, non-canon), so does the script.
Originally posted by Gideon
PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space.^ Emphasis mine. This confirms that a.) they are fighting with lightsabers and b.) they are dueling on the Chancellor's podium, which is a "confined space."
YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber
^ They are continuing the lightsaber fight, obviously, so there's no indication that it was a Force-based 'ferocious assault'.
(Anyone who suggests that it is a Force duel/telekinetic blast must prove it.)
but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.
The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.
YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.
YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod.
^ This is not depicted in the movie. Beside that obvious fact, as argued repeatedly in this thread, Yoda's move contradicts his stated intention in the movie (which is the higher canonical source). His stated intention was to destroy Palpatine, not defeat/arrest/toy with/spar with him, but to end his life. Given Yoda's noted tactical acumen (the New Essential Chronology) and his centuries of dueling and combat experience, it makes absolutely no sense for Yoda to relent from his position of superiority. It's not simply a mistake, but a move indicative of overwhelming carelessness and, quite frankly, mental retardation. This contradicts the movie in two ways: the way Yoda is depicted and his own stated goals. It is, therefore, non-canon.
But wait, there's moar!
PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.
YODA leaps away from the pods. He uses the Force to hold one pod suspended in the air. The pod spins and YODA throws it back at PALPATINE, who leaps away at the last moment.
^ This, too, is non-canon. Because according to the script, Palpatine is still on the Chancellor's podium. This is false,
YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber. YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.
^ And, finally, this is also non-canon. In reality, Yoda lands on the pod with Palpatine and is disarmed by Force lightning, but is not hurled off the pod until he deflects the lightning and the concentrated coil of energy bursts, hurling both of them off the pod.
In conclusion, the script's account of the fight is non-canon and
Spoiler:
I win.Thanks for playing! 🙂
Once again Gideon, ANY part of the script that doesn't contradict the movie is considered canon, whether you like it or not. You do not have the authority to change/set the stipulations for something to be considered as such. Therefore, you fail. Your long, drawn out, and dilluted responses cannot change this either.