French parliament approves face veil ban

Started by Level 9914 pages

French parliament approves face veil ban

Source: hXttp://news.yahoo.coXm/s/ap/20100713/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_forbidding_the_veil_9

PARIS – France's lower house of parliament overwhelmingly approved a ban on wearing burqa-style Islamic veils Tuesday, part of a concerted effort to define and protect French values that has disconcerted many in the country's large Muslim community.
Proponents of the law say face-covering veils don't square with the French ideal of women's equality or its secular tradition. The bill is controversial abroad but popular in France, where its relatively few outspoken critics say conservative President Nicolas Sarkozy has resorted to xenophobia to attract far-right voters.
The ban on burqas and niqabs will go in September to the Senate, where it also is likely to pass. Its biggest hurdle will likely come after that, when France's constitutional watchdog scrutinizes it. Some legal scholars say there is a chance it could be deemed unconstitutional.
Spain and Belgium have similar bans in the works. In France, which has Europe's largest Muslim population, about 5 million of the country's 64 million people are believed to be Muslim. While ordinary headscarves are common in France, only about 1,900 women are believed to wear face-covering veils.
The main body representing French Muslims says such garb is not suitable in France, but it worries that the ban will stigmatize all Muslims.
In Tuesday's vote at the National Assembly, there were 335 votes for the bill and just one against it. Most members of the main opposition group, the Socialist Party, walked out and refused to vote, though they in fact support a ban. They simply have differences over where it should be enforced, underscoring the lack of controversy among French politicians on the issue.
The bill passed Tuesday bans face-covering veils everywhere that can be considered public space, even in the street, but the Socialists only want it in certain places, such as government buildings, hospitals and public transport.
France's government has sought to insist that assimilation is the only path for immigrants and minorities, and last year it launched a grand nationwide debate on what it means to be French. The country has had difficulty integrating generations of immigrants and their children, as witnessed by weeks of rioting by youths, many of them minorities, in troubled neighborhoods in 2005.
At the National Assembly, few dissenters spoke out about civil liberties or fears of fanning anti-Islam sentiment. Before the vote, Greens lawmaker Francois de Rugy said the conservatives "are throwing oil on the fire — you are reviving tensions just to win votes."
Legislator Berengere Poletti, of Sarkozy's party, said face-covering veils "are a prison for women, they are the sign of their submission to their husbands, brothers or fathers."
The niqab and burqa are also seen here as a gateway to extremism and an attack on secularism, a central value of France for more than a century.
Discussions in France have dragged on for more than a year, since Sarkozy declared in June 2009 that the burqa is "not welcome" in France.
There has been some concern the bill could prod terror groups to eye France or its citizens as potential targets. Following Sarkozy's comments, al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb issued a statement on Web sites vowing to "seek vengeance against France."
The legislation would forbid face-covering Muslim veils in all public places in France and calls for euro150 ($185) fines or citizenship classes, or both.
The bill also is aimed at husbands and fathers — anyone convicted of forcing someone else to wear the garb risks a year of prison and a euro30,000 ($38,000) fine, with both penalties doubled if the victim is a minor.
Officials have taken pains to craft language that does not single out Muslims. While the proposed legislation is colloquially referred to as the "anti-burqa law," it is officially called "the bill to forbid concealing one's face in public."
It refers neither to Islam nor to veils. Officials insist the law against face-covering is not discriminatory because it would apply to everyone, not just Muslims. Yet they cite a host of exceptions, including motorcycle helmets, or masks for health reasons, fencing, skiing or carnivals.
In March, France's highest administrative body, the Council of State, warned that the law could be found unconstitutional. It said that neither French secularism nor concerns about women's equality, human dignity or public security could be legal justifications.
Anticipating a ban on the veils, an entrepreneur who tried to run for president in 2007, Rachid Nekkaz, is creating a fund to pay the fines of anyone caught wearing a niqab or burqa.
While he says he opposes the full veils, he says a ban would be anti-democratic, and he is creating the fund "so that my country is not the disgrace of the whole world."
In Cairo, Islamic scholar Abdelmotie Bayoumi said a French ban would not violate Islamic law, but would violate personal freedoms.
"The niqab has no strong legitimacy based on Quran or in examples from the Prophet's life that makes it a religious imposition on women. A Muslim woman wears the niqab not because of religious duty, but as a personal freedom," said Bayoumi, whose books include "Contemporary Testimonies," about the full-face veil.

I find this quite interesting. Do you think that the French government is making a good decision or a poor one? Is this a breach of ethics or does it reinforce them? What impact do you think this will have on the European country with the largest Muslim community?

Discuss!

Re: French parliament approves face veil ban

Rioting, attacks and explosions are soon to follow.

Originally posted by Level 99
Source: hXttp://news.yahoo.coXm/s/ap/20100713/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_forbidding_the_veil_9

I find this quite interesting. Do you think that the French government is making a good decision or a poor one? Is this a breach of ethics or does it reinforce them? What impact do you think this will have on the European country with the largest Muslim community?

Discuss!

It's a great decision and the one that has been long overdue. If they want to wear such clothes they can move to Saudi Arabia.

Na, with the exceptions of health codes (eg the Muslim woman in the pool incident), who really ****ing cares if some women want to cover their faces? It's not breaking any decdency laws, like walking around with your genitals showing.

Would the same sentiment be held if France's parliament decides that certain hairstyles or colors aren't French compatible?

Ridiculous, people should be able to wear whatever clothing they want.

I don't see the problem

Islam is fundamentally different from everything else that people have freedoms regarding, and it is inherently anti-freedom, so it really doesn't matter if people's rights are abused. you want freedom? easy, don't be a Muslim, how is that hard. frankly, if you want to worship Allah, go to Saudi Arabia

Originally posted by inimalist
I don't see the problem

Islam is fundamentally different from everything else that people have freedoms regarding, and it is inherently anti-freedom, so it really doesn't matter if people's rights are abused. you want freedom? easy, don't be a Muslim, how is that hard. frankly, if you want to worship Allah, go to Saudi Arabia


You best be trolling. You're mister anarchist and now you say stuff like this? "You want freedom, well then give up your religion or else you don't get any." Pfft. What a joke.

Dr. anarchist to you

edit: also, I've always thought I wore my sympathies for the plight of the modern Muslim more on my sleeves than my anarchy. huh

Well done France, i hope we follow soon. Sometimes the opressed are too scared to take these steps by themselves, sometimes you must GIVE people freedom if it's something they can't achieve on there own. To all the muslim women who would be against this decision i say this. Ignorance is bliss, you've been born into opression, into a socioty where opression is the norm, this dosn't make it ****ing right, this Hijab ban is a small but significant step to showing you the light you never knew existed. Afterall what do the men in Islam have to sacrifice? Not a goddamn thing.

they aren't allowed to have sex or masturbate, and are themselves victims of stringent rules regarding gender norms, though not so much as the women. I'll expand if you would like

Originally posted by Juk3n
Well done France, i hope we follow soon. Sometimes the opressed are too scared to take these steps by themselves, sometimes you must GIVE people freedom if it's something they can't achieve on there own. To all the muslim women who would be against this decision i say this. Ignorance is bliss, you've been born into opression, into a socioty where opression is the norm, this dosn't make it ****ing right, this Hijab ban is a small but significant step to showing you the light you never knew existed. Afterall what do the men in Islam have to sacrifice? Not a goddamn thing.

Yeah, and then we can get to work on dropping that pesky little "freedom of religion" thing.

i dont know how to feel... a part of me that loves freedom the american beer drinker says down with parliament!! but the other part says its their country respect their law..

all i know i wouldnt tolerate it in my country... but, i also know in some states its illegal to wear face coverings.. although i dont think it was placed to single out specific ppl but to stop robberies

As far as I can tell, this is as opposed to Article 1 of the French constitution as it would be to the 1st Amendment of the American one...

I'm not reading that article, but didn't they want this done because of security reasons?

Originally posted by King Kandy
As far as I can tell, this is as opposed to Article 1 of the French constitution as it would be to the 1st Amendment of the American one...

the problem is, unlike the Canadian or American constitutions, the French has provisions for the enforcement of French culture. even if we ignore the public safety thing, it would probably be legal for them to enforce this as part of francophonizing immigrants

Originally posted by inimalist
the problem is, unlike the Canadian or American constitutions, the French has provisions for the enforcement of French culture. even if we ignore the public safety thing, it would probably be legal for them to enforce this as part of francophonizing immigrants

Yeah. From what I can tell it's not nearly as common of a practice in France to take legislation to court as it is in the US either.

If this were in the US, as much as I loath fundamentalist Islam i'd definitely fight against this.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Well done France, i hope we follow soon. Sometimes the opressed are too scared to take these steps by themselves, sometimes you must GIVE people freedom if it's something they can't achieve on there own. To all the muslim women who would be against this decision i say this. Ignorance is bliss, you've been born into opression, into a socioty where opression is the norm, this dosn't make it ****ing right, this Hijab ban is a small but significant step to showing you the light you never knew existed. Afterall what do the men in Islam have to sacrifice? Not a goddamn thing.

It's true, what you said, if we ignore that France isn't giving Muslims freedom, it's imposing restrictions.

As the laws were before, Muslim women could wear a veil or they could not; now they're being told, "you can't."

just for interest sake, were French laws so lax that the police couldn't before have stopped and questioned someone who appeared to be covering their face for criminal or suspicious reasons? if we assume the law is for public safety, as opposed to cultural control, could I have previously walked around France in a baliclava doing suspicious things without fear that the police might stop meand ask what I'm doing?

there ya go! that'll show them radical muslims who's the boss and stop 'dem terror attacks for sure!

👇

I'd have to disagree with this new law being passed because it is a breach of freedom and expression. Unfortunately, this issue is so touchy because some of these women are forced into the religion and suffer heavy consequences for going against it.