Mace Destroys Obiwan
Mace defeated Sidious, something Obiwan couldn`t do if he lived to Yoda`s age. Dooku, who is likely below Mace, easily removed Obiwan from the fight in Episode III. Obiwan is simply a bit overrated because he disposed of Grievous and his limb-removing fight with Anakin (who not close to Mace either at that point).
I actually think Mace may have more raw power than even Yoda or Palps. In episode 2 Anakin says something like "Obiwan (..) is as Wise as Yoda and as Powerful as Windu" An exaggeration obviously but this would seem to indicate that Mace may be regarded as more powerful than Yoda in some ways. Defeating Palpatine would seem to support that.. Yoda after all could not do the same.
Originally posted by MshinuMace had Vaapad and Shatterpoint, soemthing Yoda does not.
In episode 2 Anakin says something like "Obiwan (..) is as Wise as Yoda and as Powerful as Windu" An exaggeration obviously but this would seem to indicate that Mace may be regarded as more powerful than Yoda in some ways. Defeating Palpatine would seem to support that.. Yoda after all could not do the same.
Anakin can spout whatever bullshit he wants, that doesn't make it true. The premise of his sentence is already a very skewed opinion (Obi-Wan is NOT as wise as Yoda or as powerful as Windu). And taken in to appropriate context, he could easily have been referring to Mace's brute strength in the Force and overbearing fighting style. "Powerful" can mean a number of different things.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Mace had Vaapad and Shatterpoint, soemthing Yoda does not.
Those are not auto-wins by any means. Mace still had to apply his style of fighting trough skill and back it up with the force to overpower Palpatine. As has been pointed out numerous times, the fighter matters far more than the style. Vaapad does not guarantee victory any more than Makashi does. "Having" Vaapad doesen`t win a fight, being #&#¤¤% good with it does.
Yoda is able to absorb force lightning, but had a hard time applying this against Sidious. He was first knocked out by the lightning for a full minute, later disarmed with it. Is this because absorbing force lightning is a sucky skill? No, obviously the Emperor was just a little more than Yoda could handle.
Originally posted by MshinuNone of what you said is any indicator of Yoda and Mace's respective powers in relation to each other.
Those are not auto-wins by any means. Mace still had to apply his style of fighting trough skill and back it up with the force to overpower Palpatine. As has been pointed out numerous times, the fighter matters far more than the style. Vaapad does not guarantee victory any more than Makashi does. "Having" Vaapad doesen`t win a fight, being #&#¤¤% good with it does.Yoda is able to absorb force lightning, but had a hard time applying this against Sidious. He was first knocked out by the lightning for a full minute, later disarmed with it. Is this because absorbing force lightning is a sucky skill? No, obviously the Emperor was just a little more than Yoda could handle.
Mace's Vaapad and Shatterpoint won him that duel. If he didn't have them, he would have been f*cked. Especially without Vaapad. Even that wasn't enough to stop Palpatine's Lightning from forcing his blade so close to his face that he was "choking on ozone". If I recall right, Yoda took said Lightning in his hands like a champ and exploded it in Palpatine's face.
But hey, good for Mace though.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
None of what you said is any indicator of Yoda and Mace's respective powers in relation to each other.Mace's Vaapad and Shatterpoint won him that duel. If he didn't have them, he would have been f*cked. Especially without Vaapad. Even that wasn't enough to stop Palpatine's Lightning from forcing his blade so close to his face that he was "choking on ozone". If I recall right, Yoda took said Lightning in his hands like a champ and exploded it in Palpatine's face.
But hey, good for Mace though.
The fact remains Mace beat Sidious and Sidious came out on top over Yoda.
Yea, take away Mace`s style and abilities and he`d loose. Take away Yoda`s or Sidious` style and abilities and they will loose a fight too. What`s the point? Take Dooku for example, he is not a dangerous opponent just because he uses Makashi, he is so because he is a master with it. Vaapad has limits just like anything else.
Seems to me that explosion hit Yoda as much as it did Sidious, perhaps even more. It certainly also resulted in Yoda being unable to fulfill his goal. Not to mention Sidious could have fried Yoda like an egg when he was knocked out from the initial attack. All in all Yoda was not very sucessful in fending off Sids` force abilities.
Yoda, Sids and Mace are obviously close. However the actual fights in the movies would actually suggest that Mace > Sidious > Yoda.
Anyway.. they all beat the crap out of Obiwan.
Originally posted by MshinuThis, and most of everything else you said, is an example of A>B>C logic. I assume you don't know of it.
Yoda, Sids and Mace are obviously close. However the actual fights in the movies would actually suggest that Mace > Sidious > Yoda.
A beats B.
B beats C.
Therefore A beats C (or in this case, "is more powerful" than C).
Terrible logic. Especially when variables and factors (such as the existence and use of Vaapad and Shatterpoint) are applied.
EDIT: Yeah, I forgot to edit this in.
Originally posted by MshinuSeems to me it did too.
Seems to me that explosion hit Yoda as much as it did Sidious, perhaps even more.
Originally posted by MshinuSidious faking weakness in his Force-contest with Windu was rather convienet for him (Windu). If Sidious had contiued (and he could have), then that would have resulted in Windu being unable to fulfill his goal.
It certainly also resulted in Yoda being unable to fulfill his goal.
Originally posted by MshinuPIS, and irrelevant here.
Not to mention Sidious could have fried Yoda like an egg when he was knocked out from the initial attack.
Originally posted by MshinuNeither was Windu.
All in all Yoda was not very sucessful in fending off Sids` force abilities.
Vaapad factored in, Sidious is beneath Yoda and Windu in saber skills.
Vaapad factored in, Sidious is above Yoda and Windu in the Force.
If I were a meaner person, I'd throw the words "suck it" in there somewhere, but as I'm not...
What do you mean Windu was unsucessful, he overpowered Sidious before he Anakin arrived and he pretended to be weak. The commentary says so clearly. Also Windu was able to hold on to his lightsaber in face of the force lightning, unlike Yoda.
I`d say Yoda being knocked out by Palpatine for a minute is pretty relevant.
As for saber skills vs the force it is hard to distinguish this because they all USE the force in saber duels. Sidius was able to match Yoda`s blade, not so much with Mace.
ABC logic works to a certain extent here because they have very similar powers.
I see you could not resist putting "suck it" in your post anyway. Beware of the dark side my friend.
Originally posted by MshinuMace overpowered Sidious in the saber contest thanks to Vaapad. The Force contest though, with Sidious feigning weakness to tempt Anakin... was fake. If Sidious had held out longer, Mace's lightsaber would have started carving in to his face. Mace did not have the Force reserves Palpatine had to combat his Lightning. Yoda did. He even deflected it back at him, though it cost him his own reserves to do so, thus his retreat.
What do you mean Windu was unsucessful, he overpowered Sidious before he Anakin arrived and he pretended to be weak. The commentary says so clearly. Also Windu was able to hold on to his lightsaber in face of the force lightning, unlike Yoda.
Originally posted by MshinuIf I sucker punched you, would you call it fair, or timely?
I`d say Yoda being knocked out by Palpatine for a minute is pretty relevant.
Originally posted by MshinuAgain, there is a REASON for that. The novelization is quite clear that up until Mace had fully submerged in to Vaapad, that Palpatine had the upper hand. In Sidious and Yoda's duel, YODA had the upper hand until either A.) he disarmed Sidious, or B.) decided to f*ck off from the saber duel for some reason as per the script's implication.
As for saber skills vs the force it is hard to distinguish this because they all USE the force in saber duels. Sidius was able to match Yoda`s blade, not so much with Mace.
Originally posted by MshinuNo, it doesn't. It rarely works anywhere here. Keep bringing it up and let's see how fast the others start on you.
ABC logic works to a certain extent here because they have very similar powers.
Originally posted by MshinuI'm not your friend, guy.
I see you could not resist putting "suck it" in your post anyway. Beware of the dark side my friend.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If I sucker punched you, would you call it fair, or timely?
Because threatening someone, slowly raising your hands to strike and in all manner possible announce you are going to attack is in fact; a sucker punch eh? 😉
Again, there is a REASON for that. The novelization is quite clear that up until Mace had fully submerged in to Vaapad, that Palpatine had the upper hand. In Sidious and Yoda's duel, YODA had the upper hand until either A.) he disarmed Sidious, or B.) decided to f*ck off from the saber duel for some reason as per the script's implication.
The movie thrumps lesser canon. It takes Mace just a few seconds to man up to Palps` attack and after this he is clearly holding an edge. In fact Sids seems to have an easier time with Yoda. Who was unable to land a boot to the head btw.
Unless i am mistaken, Yoda does even realize Sidious is a better warrior in the novel. And why should he not? He did loose after all.
No, it doesn't. It rarely works anywhere here. Keep bringing it up and let's see how fast the others start on you.
Scary. I maintain it works to a certain extent.
Also, seems to me many use it that way here.
No, ABC arguments rarely work (maybe in DBZ, but not Star Wars). When A beats B, A will have more of an advantage, but only after you've examined how A beat B and if this will have the same effect on C. It is important to know that B isn't the same as C.
It's a rock-paper-scissors thing. Because Anakin beat Dooku, and Dooku beat Obi-Wan. Does this mean Anakin will win against Obi-Wan? No, this didn't happen because Obi-Wan isn't Dooku.
There are also a lot of examples of foughts that were won by the less powerful combatant. Like Obi vs Maul or Luke vs Vader.
Originally posted by MshinuAnd pooling in your palms and reflecting that exact same attack is the same thing? Or is there an air of combat missing in the ante-chamber?
Because threatening someone, slowly raising your hands to strike and in all manner possible announce you are going to attack is in fact; a sucker punch eh? 😉
Originally posted by MshinuYes, it does.
The movie thrumps lesser canon.
Originally posted by MshinuSidious did have an "easier" time, per se, with Yoda. Mace's Vaapad allowed him to feed off Palpatine's own darkness. But that does not mean Mace is more powerful than Yoda. This is A>B>C at its finest. And it's faulty.
It takes Mace just a few seconds to man up to Palps` attack and after this he is clearly holding an edge. In fact Sids seems to have an easier time with Yoda. Who was unable to land a boot to the head btw.
Originally posted by MshinuI don't think the word "warrior" is used, but he admits that he had lost the fight. Now whether that means he would have lost the lightsaber fight is not clear. It's highly unlikely though, considering how well he was doing against Palpatine in the film (there's no real description of the fight in the novel).
Unless i am mistaken, Yoda does even realize Sidious is a better warrior in the novel.
Originally posted by MshinuYeah, they're the people that get bashed. It's alright to use in a strictly quantitative approach, but all the lightsaber fights and Force feats... they can't be measured with an easy, "this over this, so this over that."
Scary. I maintain it works to a certain extent.
Also, seems to me many use it that way here.
Originally posted by Mshinu
Yea, but how about this. Yoda is superior to Dooku in every way. Dooku handles Obiwan easily. This should mean Yoda would have no serious trouble with Obiwan.
It's a factor, Dooku disposed of Obi-Wan through the Force because he couldn't get through his lightsaber defenses. There is a lot more proof than just that fact that gives Yoda a clear advantage against Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
It's a factor, Dooku disposed of Obi-Wan through the Force because he couldn't get through his lightsaber defenses. There is a lot more proof than just that fact that gives Yoda a clear advantage against Obi-Wan.
Of course, but it works as a limited model. Unless Obiwan has some special advantage over Yoda anyway.