Originally posted by MshinuHe has Soresu. In a strict lightsaber duel, Obi-Wan would be difficult to kill no matter his opponent. That's why of any Jedi alive, Mace considered him to be best suited the job of killing Grievous.
Of course, but it works as a limited model. Unless Obiwan has some special advantage over Yoda anyway.
Sidous was disarmed by both Yoda and Mace.
Sidious faked weakness against Mace when using the force, he did no such thing against Yoda.
Mace overcame Sidious's faked weakness, Yoda stalemated Sidious's full strength.
Mace was left in a position to do damage because Sidious was faking. Yoda failed to be in a position to damage because he was closer to the edge of a pod than Sidious was.
If the screenplay of the fight is to be believed, Yoda held Sidious's life in his hands during the cutaway scene to Mustafar, and made either a tactical error, or an error in judgement. this is exactly akin to Sidious letting Yoda get up after frying him with lightning, so that PIS cancels itself out.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
[B]Sidious did have an "easier" time, per se, with Yoda. Mace's Vaapad allowed him to feed off Palpatine's own darkness. But that does not mean Mace is more powerful than Yoda. This is A>B>C at its finest. And it's faulty.
So where would you put Mace in respect to force potential? Does beating Sidious narrowly with the advantage of vaapad put him lower than Sids/Yoda?
Owerwhelming Palpatine is no small thing no matter what style you use or advantages thereof. What if Yoda managed to capitalize on lightning absorption and beat Sidious, would that not be a HUGE feather in his cap?
I don't think the word "warrior" is used, but he admits that he had lost the fight. Now whether that means he would have lost the lightsaber fight is not clear. It's highly unlikely though, considering how well he was doing against Palpatine in the film (there's no real description of the fight in the novel).
Why would you say Yoda did "so well" against Sidious in the movie? They seem pretty equal to me until they for some reason, not shown in the film, are separated.
Originally posted by MshinuAh, careful with the word "potential". I think you mean "prowess".
So where would you put Mace in respect to force potential? Does beating Sidious narrowly with the advantage of vaapad put him lower than Sids/Yoda?
Originally posted by MshinuYes it would, but it's not an indication of raw power or potential power. I don't want to use the word "technicality", but I haven't slept in a while so I will. Mace's use of Vaapad utilizes his own, and his opponent's inner darkness to his (Mace's) advantage. If Yoda could have done the same... boy howdy.
Owerwhelming Palpatine is no small thing no matter what style you use or advantages thereof. What if Yoda managed to capitalize on lightning absorption and beat Sidious, would that not be a HUGE feather in his cap?
It'd be like me saying Vegeta had the highest chi level in Dragonball just because he can reflect any attack that comes at him. He doesn't. It's a very... very useful ability, but that doesn't make him "the most powerful" or "more powerful" than anyone else. Mace's Vaapad is a marvelous trick that requires his opponent to contribute one half of its effectiveness. Yoda doesn't have that, or need that to disarm Sidious.
Originally posted by MshinuGideon has a copy of the script that states Yoda literally backed away when he held the advantage. PIS. But up until he and Palpatine started Force-duelling each other, Yoda was dominating the saber duel.
Why would you say Yoda did "so well" against Sidious in the movie? They seem pretty equal to me until they for some reason, not shown in the film, are separated.
Without Vaapad.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ah, careful with the word "potential". I think you mean "prowess".
No, I was actually thinking raw force strength, midi-clorian count or whatever it is called.
Yes it would, but it's not an indication of raw power or potential power. I don't want to use the word "technicality", but I haven't slept in a while so I will. Mace's use of Vaapad utilizes his own, and his opponent's inner darkness to his (Mace's) advantage. If Yoda could have done the same... boy howdy.
But Yoda uses another style (Aratu or whatever) that has its own benefits. Why do you asume Vaapad would be better for Yoda? Especially since his size and age might be more benefited by style IV?
Gideon has a copy of the script that states Yoda literally backed away when he held the advantage. PIS. But up until he and Palpatine started Force-duelling each other, Yoda was dominating the saber duel.Without Vaapad.
But with Aratu.
Anyway doesn`t that script seem a bit contadictonary to how the movie turned out? I can`t really see any of them holding an advantage during the saber fight.
Originally posted by MshinuThen Yoda wins.
No, I was actually thinking raw force strength, midi-clorian count or whatever it is called.
Originally posted by Mshinu...
But Yoda uses another style (Aratu or whatever) that has its own benefits. Why do you asume Vaapad would be better for Yoda? Especially since his size and age might be more benefited by style IV?
He wouldn't. I was hypothesizing that if Yoda could use his own "inner darkness" and Palpatine's to augment his own natural strength, then holy f*ck.
Originally posted by MshinuI'm sure you can't. But the movie's scenes have Yoda holding his own and frustrating Palpatine to quite a degree. In the in-between off-camera scenes, Yoda either disarms Palpatine, or Palpatine retreats to higher ground to make use of his command of the Force. Either way suggests that Palpatine doesn't wanna be near Yoda's blade.
But with Aratu.
Anyway doesn`t that script seem a bit contadictonary to how the movie turned out? I can`t really see any of them holding an advantage during the saber fight.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He wouldn't. I was hypothesizing that if Yoda could use his own "inner darkness" and Palpatine's to augment his own natural strength, then holy f*ck.
I'm sure you can't. But the movie's scenes have Yoda holding his own and frustrating Palpatine to quite a degree. In the in-between off-camera scenes, Yoda either disarms Palpatine, or Palpatine retreats to higher ground to make use of his command of the Force. Either way suggests that Palpatine doesn't wanna be near Yoda's blade.
Holding his own and fustratin Palps, yes. So basically equal. Getting some distance turned out quite well for the Sith lord.
Originally posted by MshinuI was slackjawed there for a moment, but I composed myself. Now let me see, where did I put... ah yes.
He wouldn`t what? Are you saying Vaapad would be better for Yoda?
facepalm
Originally posted by MshinuIndeed.
Holding his own and fustratin Palps, yes. So basically equal. Getting some distance turned out quite well for the Sith lord.
Originally posted by truejedi
If the screenplay of the fight is to be believed, Yoda held Sidious's life in his hands during the cutaway scene to Mustafar, and made either a tactical error, or an error in judgement. this is exactly akin to Sidious letting Yoda get up after frying him with lightning, so that PIS cancels itself out.
It is canon.