Hit Girl (kick ass) vs. John Preston (Equilibrium)

Started by Rogue Jedi14 pages

Here, check it:

http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/g/gu/gun_kata.htm

"Through analysis of thousands of recorded gunfights, the Cleric has determined that the geometric distribution of antagonists in any gun battle is a statistically-predictable element. The Gun Kata treats the gun as a total weapon, each fluid position representing a maximum kill zone inflicting maximum damage on the maximum number of opponents, while keeping the defender clear of the statistically-traditional trajectories of return fire. By the rote mastery of this art, your firing efficiency will rise by no less than 120%. The difference of a 63% increased lethal proficiency makes the master of the Gun Katas an adversary not to be taken lightly."

Gun Kata, as a martial art, places emphasis on two tenets: shooting the enemy as efficiently as possible, and avoiding return fire. Hitting targets is a matter of knowing where enemy fighters are likely to be located in relation to the user, which removes the problem of aiming (especially at close ranges), not to mention allowing the user to defeat foes with pre-emptive fire before they can present a true threat. Avoiding return fire is also a matter of statistical probability, as Gun Kata users do not rely on bullet time-style evasions, but rather on avoiding the enemy's most likely lines of fire. In short, Gun Kata is the art of shooting where the enemy should be, while not being where the enemy should shoot. It is effective enough that the protagonist of Equilibrium, Grammaton Cleric First Class John Preston, is able to defeat more than 30 enemy stormtroopers in under a minute. It should be noted, however, that this was an exceptional feat even by the standards of Gun Kata, since Preston himself expressed some doubt as to whether he could manage it, and as a First Class Cleric, Preston was a master of Gun Kata.

Now let's break down the most important parts:

Through analysis of thousands of recorded gunfights, the Cleric has determined that the geometric distribution of antagonists in any gun battle is a statistically-predictable element. .....A "statistically-predictable element." Hit Girl is not predictable. Strike one for gun kata.

inflicting maximum damage on the maximum number of opponents while keeping the defender clear of the statistically-traditional trajectories of return fire......"statistically-traditional trajectories of return fire." Hit Girl, again, goes completely against the grain here. Strike two.

Hitting targets is a matter of knowing where enemy fighters are likely to be located in relation to the user "Likely to be located".....Preston, as I said, fights against people who act in such a fashion do that he knows what they will do before they do it. He never, not once, fights someone like Hit Girl. When you compare fighting her to fighting someone in his universe, the difference is night and day. Strike three.

Avoiding return fire is also a matter of statistical probability, as Gun Kata users do not rely on bullet time-style evasions, but rather on avoiding the enemy's most likely lines of fire. There we have it, not bullet dodging. Strike four.

In short, Gun Kata is the art of shooting where the enemy should be, while not being where the enemy should shoot. See Hit Girl's hallway shootout scene.

Wait, here it is:

YouTube video

Yeah, good luck at guessing/predicting where she'll be at any given moment haermm Strike five.

lM5-0_3XtKQ&feature=related

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You talking about this, at :30?

YouTube video

That's not bullet dodging, you moron. Preston, as I said, knows the police in side and out, their training, their tendencies, how/when/where they will shoot. All he did was flip out if the way AS they fired. It was NOT before they fired. Stop being a fanboy. He knew where the bulets would be coming from even as he threw the magazines down the hallway.

Not bullet dodging. Bullet dodging is seeing the bullet after it is fired and moving out of the way. Preston never did this.

How the hell do you know he didnt see the bullets? 😂 Dude, Bullet dodging is no more complicated than, simply dodging bullets. If a bullet is fired directly at you and you physically evade the bullet...,you are dodging bullets. His style of bullet dodging may be different than others but he still dodges bullets

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yes they were. They were stationary or moving a foot this way or that at slow speeds. Fact.

No comment on how Gun Kata is designed to work with maximum effectiveness against a group of stationary shooters, as opposed to one shooter who moves way faster than anyone in Equilibrium? K.

I'll circle back to HG's stealth.

Check THIS out:

YouTube video

FF to 1:25-2:10. Strobe light. If Preston can't see her, he can't shoot her. And no, the opening scene in Equilibrium won't work as a counter for you here. Those guys were standing still, reloading their weapons, talking, making all sorts of noise.

Cool stuff, yeah?

So, this fight takes place in a dark room with no light and Hit-girl has night vision goggles? If so, then she kills who ever she is fighting.

That scene is cool as hell but it does nothing to showcase, Hit-girls skills. There is nothing impressive about killing a room of blind people.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You talking about this, at :30?

YouTube video

That's not bullet dodging, you moron. Preston, as I said, knows the police in side and out, their training, their tendencies, how/when/where they will shoot. All he did was flip out if the way AS they fired. It was NOT before they fired. Stop being a fanboy. He knew where the bulets would be coming from even as he threw the magazines down the hallway.

Not bullet dodging. Bullet dodging is seeing the bullet after it is fired and moving out of the way. Preston never did this.

Bullet dodgers? HG, YuLaw, Neo, Smith, Daredevil. I used to say Danny the Dog, but Rob broke that down for me and convinced me otherwise.

No, that was bullet dodging.

Guns fire right at Preston THEN he moves. Just the same as hit girl.

You've backed yourself into slippery slope corner.

If that wasn't bullet dodging, then what HG did wasn't bullet dodging. Then what we are left with his two gun fighters: one makes the other look like a slug (obviously, Preston is the one that makes HG look like a slug...yes, I had to explain that because you would "magical spells" me.)

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Mhm, and Preston never dodged bullets. You;re making shit up now, fanboy.

No, he didn't. Preston never, not once, "dodged" bullets.

HG dodged 4 bullets in three different instances WHILE RUNNING AT HER ENEMY, from ten feet away.

Stop being a douche, fanboy.

So, you're reduced to denying what was seen on screen and name calling. If you were any other poster, I'd report you for trolling on two levels.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, you're talking outta your ass because you can't stand seeing your boy lose. You're making shit up because you can't stand being wrong.

haermm Preston is not a bullet dodged, you loser haermm Your argument is shit.

I hate to have to parrot myself, but you're wrong:

Guns fire right at Preston THEN he moves. That's very simple.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
So BD was able to peer into their souls and shit? Shang Tsung style? wanker Lui Kang, you will die!!!

Instead of addressing the obvious point, you respond with jokes. Gotcha.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
They were just police officers, dude. Nothing suggested that they were uber trained. The only uber training was that of the clerics.

Oh, so the Father of the theocratic military is going to post 20+ fully armed guards outside of his inner-sanctum, but they are going to be your average run of the mill military force when you have the most highly advanced weapons and weapons training in the world?

Right. I gotcha. It's opposite day, right?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Mhm, afraid he would have been. If the hallway would have been filled with modern day officers that were, for arguments sake, of McClane or Riggs caliber (without his luck of course), Preston would have been killed. The only reason Preston was able to survive the hallway shootout, and the sword fight, is that he knew what the officers/clerics would do before they did it. He was that well trained in gun kata, he was that familiar with the officer training. FFS he had to have been an officer as he climbed the ranks to cleric. Knowing what your opponent is gonna do before they do it is probably the most valuable weapon one can have. Preston had this against all his opponents, this is why he appeared to be a God amongst men.

No, he wouldn't have been. You're going to put a room full of average everyday cops against a futuristic military force that has training and techniques that are beyond human capability and then claim that the dude that pwns the shit out of that futuristic military force is going to die?

Do you see how effed up your points are getting?

And, your points completely fail to begin with because you're committing a non-sequitor fallacy: Preston's abilities don't magically stop working against other people.

And your point about "having intimate knowledge" is literally complete B.S. It worked against non military units and military units that had the same training.

This point won't be addressed again because of how silly it is.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
This is Placidity's point, this is his whole argument, that Gun Kata works in Prestons universe because Preston knows his opponents, their tendencies, when and where they will attack, all before they even do it. HG goes completely against the grain when it comes to predictability.

Right, so clearing out a room of 12 guys so fast that they couldn't even pull their guns up to shoot is magically gun kata, right? 😬

Yes, that's correct: Preston isn't using Gun Kata every time he fires his gun. I'd wager that gun kata isn't really usable against just one person because it's far to easy to dodge just one person's shots without using gun kata when you're as fast as Preston. It'd be like using a nuke to kill an ant.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
If Preston tries to use Gun Kata against a single opponent who makes it impossible to predict what they are gonna do next, shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. Dead cleric.

Right, a little girl running in a straight line for more than a second is sooooooo hard to hit. 😬

Yeah its bullet dodging......what else would it be? some trained guy flipping around like a monkey?

I guess this isnt either.

YouTube video

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
How the hell do you know he didnt see the bullets? 😂 Dude, Bullet dodging is no more complicated than, simply dodging bullets. If a bullet is fired directly at you and you physically evade the bullet...,you are dodging bullets. His style of bullet dodging may be different than others but he still dodges bullets

No, he used two things to avoid those bullets. I already covered this, several times.

1. Gun Kata, look at and READ what I posted:

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Here, check it:

http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/g/gu/gun_kata.htm

"Through analysis of thousands of recorded gunfights, the Cleric has determined that the geometric distribution of antagonists in any gun battle is a statistically-predictable element. The Gun Kata treats the gun as a total weapon, each fluid position representing a maximum kill zone inflicting maximum damage on the maximum number of opponents, while keeping the defender clear of the statistically-traditional trajectories of return fire. By the rote mastery of this art, your firing efficiency will rise by no less than 120%. The difference of a 63% increased lethal proficiency makes the master of the Gun Katas an adversary not to be taken lightly."

Gun Kata, as a martial art, places emphasis on two tenets: shooting the enemy as efficiently as possible, and avoiding return fire. Hitting targets is a matter of knowing where enemy fighters are likely to be located in relation to the user, which removes the problem of aiming (especially at close ranges), not to mention allowing the user to defeat foes with pre-emptive fire before they can present a true threat. Avoiding return fire is also a matter of statistical probability, as Gun Kata users do not rely on bullet time-style evasions, but rather on avoiding the enemy's most likely lines of fire. In short, Gun Kata is the art of shooting where the enemy should be, while not being where the enemy should shoot. It is effective enough that the protagonist of Equilibrium, Grammaton Cleric First Class John Preston, is able to defeat more than 30 enemy stormtroopers in under a minute. It should be noted, however, that this was an exceptional feat even by the standards of Gun Kata, since Preston himself expressed some doubt as to whether he could manage it, and as a First Class Cleric, Preston was a master of Gun Kata.

Now let's break down the most important parts:

[b]Through analysis of thousands of recorded gunfights, the Cleric has determined that the geometric distribution of antagonists in any gun battle is a statistically-predictable element. .....A "statistically-predictable element." Hit Girl is not predictable. Strike one for gun kata.

inflicting maximum damage on the maximum number of opponents while keeping the defender clear of the statistically-traditional trajectories of return fire......"statistically-traditional trajectories of return fire." Hit Girl, again, goes completely against the grain here. Strike two.

Hitting targets is a matter of knowing where enemy fighters are likely to be located in relation to the user "Likely to be located".....Preston, as I said, fights against people who act in such a fashion do that he knows what they will do before they do it. He never, not once, fights someone like Hit Girl. When you compare fighting her to fighting someone in his universe, the difference is night and day. Strike three.

Avoiding return fire is also a matter of statistical probability, as Gun Kata users do not rely on bullet time-style evasions, but rather on avoiding the enemy's most likely lines of fire. There we have it, not bullet dodging. Strike four.

In short, Gun Kata is the art of shooting where the enemy should be, while not being where the enemy should shoot. See Hit Girl's hallway shootout scene.

Wait, here it is:

YouTube video

Yeah, good luck at guessing/predicting where she'll be at any given moment haermm Strike five.
[/B]

See? The very definition of Gun Kata literally SAYS it is not bullet dodging.

And 2: His familiarity with those men and their training.

OK, you and I are fighting as a team, taking on a wave of bad guys. They start shooting. We "avoid" being shot for the following reasons:

ME: I am not trained in Gun Kata. I see the bullet coming. I literally see the lead projectile leave the weapon. I run TOWARDS the shooter, TOWARDS the lead projectile, and, when it nears, I move my body to avoid the lead projectile. I am that fast.

YOU: You, well, you know these men, and you are trained in Gun Kata. You are familiar with their training, inside and out. You know how they will shoot, where they will shoot, and when they will shoot. You know that they will raise their weapons and fire at you in a certain fashion, and you know to move OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE before they shoot, as Preston did.

Now.....Which is more impressive?

OK, now those first guys all fought a certain way, in such a predictable fashion (to you, as I said, you were able to PREDICT their actions.) Wave 2 comes along (a group of shooters whose training and fighting style you are unable to predict), they start firing, and I do my thing again, seeing the lead projectile leave the weapon, running towards the shooter/s, and moving my body to avoid the lead projectile. You, you are unable to predict how/when/where they will shoot.

Is your Gun Kata going to be as effective against wave two?

No, it isn't, it will be pretty much useless. Why? Because you rely on PREDICTABILITY to avoid being shot, whereas I rely on reflexes and speed. I live, you die.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Yeah its bullet dodging......what else would it be? some trained guy flipping around like a monkey?

I guess this isnt either.

YouTube video

That, sir, is top tier bullet dodging. The best of the best. Neo and the Agents see the bullets as they leave the barrel, and when the bullet nears, they move out of the way. THAT is bullet dodging. THEY are bullet timers.

Top tier: Neo, Smith, Agents
2nd tier: YuLaw
3rd Tier: Daredevil, Hit Girl

Gun Kata is not bullet dodging, and it is not bullet timing.

OK look, it's all "avoiding" being hit, we can all admit that. It is all avoiding being hit by DIFFERENT METHODS. If you guys are so thoroughly convinced that employing Gun Kata is dodging bullets, even though the very definition says it isn't, then fine, we can call it bullet dodging.

BUT, as I said, there are different methods of "dodging bullets." Preston? He predicts where and when the bullets will be BEFORE they arrive by memorizing the positions of the shooters and moving out of the line of fire, not to mention knowing how/when/where they will shoot because he is 100% familiar with them. Hit Girl? She sees the lead projectile as it approaches, runs toward the shooter/s, and moves as the lead projectile nears her.

Hit Girl's method of bullet dodging is more impressive.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that was bullet dodging.

Guns fire right at Preston THEN he moves. Just the same as hit girl.

You've backed yourself into slippery slope corner.

Read what I just posted. It's all "avoiding being hit", by different methods.

If that wasn't bullet dodging, then what HG did wasn't bullet dodging. Then what we are left with his two gun fighters: one makes the other look like a slug (obviously, Preston is the one that makes HG look like a slug...yes, I had to explain that because you would "magical spells" me.)
HG was within arms reach of her shooters, in a hallway that is 1/4 the size as Prestons, and avoided being hit. She had no idea when/where/how those men would fire, because she was not familiar with their tendencies.

Preston had much more room to work with. He knew where/when/how those men would fire, and when they raised their weapons and fired, he reacted. He did NOT see the bullet leaving the gun and nearing him. His way is more proactive than HG's, that's all.

Any moron can see that HG avoiding being hit is more impressive than Preston being hit.

So, you're reduced to denying what was seen on screen and name calling. If you were any other poster, I'd report you for trolling on two levels.

Yeah? You admitted to me that you are the ultimate Preston fanboy, and it is showing here. You are, quite literally, changing the definition of Gun Kata.

I hate to have to parrot myself, but you're wrong:

Guns fire right at Preston THEN he moves. That's very simple.

Preston moved as the guns were firing, babe.

HG moved after the guns were fired.

Read what I just posted to Janx and nuul.

Instead of addressing the obvious point, you respond with jokes. Gotcha.
Aw, look at who's all serious today, who's a big boy? YOU'RE a big boy!!!

Oh, so the Father of the theocratic military is going to post 20+ fully armed guards outside of his inner-sanctum, but they are going to be your average run of the mill military force when you have the most highly advanced weapons and weapons training in the world?

Right. I gotcha. It's opposite day, right?

Mhm, men that were totally predictable to Preston. He knew when they would shoot, where they would shoot, and how they would shoot.

No, he wouldn't have been. You're going to put a room full of average everyday cops against a futuristic military force that has training and techniques that are beyond human capability and then claim that the dude that pwns the shit out of that futuristic military force is going to die?

Do you see how effed up your points are getting?

Mhm, men that were totally predictable to Preston. He knew when they would shoot, where they would shoot, and how they would shoot.

It's hard to get a point across to a fanboy. My points are valid and indisputable, but you just can't stand seeing Preston lose.

And, your points completely fail to begin with because you're committing a non-sequitor fallacy: Preston's abilities don't magically stop working against other people.
Aaaaaaaaaahahahaha I never said they disappear. I merely stated that they are only effective with a certain group of people. HG does not fall under this category.

And your point about "having intimate knowledge" is literally complete B.S. It worked against non military units and military units that had the same training.
No, it isn't. It saved Prestons life. Prestons knowledge of the police and how they would fight saved his life, end of discussion.

This point won't be addressed again because of how silly it is.
You really haven't addressed a single one of my points. Not effectively, anyway.

Right, so clearing out a room of 12 guys so fast that they couldn't even pull their guns up to shoot is magically gun kata, right? 😬

Yes, that's correct: Preston isn't using Gun Kata every time he fires his gun. I'd wager that gun kata isn't really usable against just one person because it's far to easy to dodge just one person's shots without using gun kata when you're as fast as Preston. It'd be like using a nuke to kill an ant.

That, my man, is a load of shit. Preston used gun kata in all of his gun battle scenes.

Right, a little girl running in a straight line for more than a second is sooooooo hard to hit. 😬
facepalm You know the point I was making there. HG, running at her opponent and dodging is more impressive than Preston moving out of the line of fire from thirty feet away. This is non debatable.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, he used two things to avoid those bullets. I already covered this, several times.

1. Gun Kata, look at and READ what I posted:

See? The very definition of Gun Kata literally SAYS it is not bullet dodging.

I already read that but it inconsistent and makes no sense. He may be using Gun Kata to dodge bullets but he's still dodging bullets. If he werent using gun kata he wouldn't be dodging bullets. That's like saying Neo isn't dodging bullets because he is in the matrix.

Seriously, just answer me this...,is he moving out of the way of the bullets? Yes or no.

I'm not reading what you posted, RJ, as the first few lines aren't, "You're right. My bad. I forgot about that scene." Or something like that.

Preston wins, overwhelmingly, in this fight in all catagories: Guns, blades, h2h, and in the dark.

You're the only one that believes what you believe and I'm quite sure you've just talked in circles again, so there's no need for me to requote myself as Imp stated he didn't like that sh*t in his forum.

RJ isn't going to give up. Again, preston wins by majority.

Debating with RJ is like talking to a broken record and this is why I am done with this thread. I have said the reasons why I think Preston wins

Originally posted by dadudemon

As for the fallicious idea that HG is bouncing around all over the place and it makes Gun Kata completely useless. PFFFFFFFFFFFFT! Preston is a bullet dodger of automatic gunfire. That puts him above Veidt and HG, by far. Also, he shot plenty of moving targets.

Whoa whoa whoa......WHOA......Did you just say that Preston is superior to Veidt? crylaugh

Yeah, you might wanna look up "objectivity" in the dictionary before you lose any creditability.

I'll ask one more time:

Which is more impressive, when speaking of speed, reaction time and agility:

A: Running at a shooter, seeing the bullet leave the gun, moving out of the way as it nears you. (all from ten feet away)

Or

B: Knowing where the bullet/s will be in advance, and moving out of the line of fire as/before the guns are fired. (from 30ish feet away.)

Originally posted by The Nuul
Debating with RJ is like talking to a broken record and this is why I am done with this thread. I have said the reasons why I think Preston wins
Mhm, keep thinking.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
RJ isn't going to give up. Again, preston wins by majority.
How about you offer more than a cheering section, hmm?

Everything has been covered by me here, Placidity too. PM me with any questions, that's an open invite.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm not reading what you posted, RJ, as the first few lines aren't, "You're right. My bad. I forgot about that scene." Or something like that.

Preston wins, overwhelmingly, in this fight in all catagories: Guns, blades, h2h, and in the dark.

You're the only one that believes what you believe and I'm quite sure you've just talked in circles again, so there's no need for me to requote myself as Imp stated he didn't like that sh*t in his forum.

What scene? Where the two guys are firing on him? I already covered that. Pretty much buried it neck deep.

An no, Preston doesn't win with a blade, not unless he gets within blades reach of HG.

Yeah, Preston probably wins h2h.

In the dark, with NVG, HG rapes.

Preston>>>>Veidt crylaugh

Originally posted by Placidity
Hang on,

If I made a thread like:

Agent Smith, Agent Zero, Agent 47, Jason Bourne and Robocop Vs. Preston

- Fire Fight only
- Pistols only

You'd vote for Preston? They'd all miss him while he waltzes around?

I noticed no one answered this.

Rj does pose a compelling argument....

I'll be back in about an hour and a half. Let me watch Kick-Ass and acquire an accurate analysis of Hit-Girl's efficiency with a gun

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What scene? Where the two guys are firing on him? I already covered that. Pretty much buried it neck deep.

No you didn't. You parroted yourself but didn't cover any ground. Besides, the point wasn't arguable and whatever you had to say to try and counter it was automatically against the MVF. You can ignore what is seen on screen, sure, but I definitely will not give you any time when you go into blind rage mode.

The point is not arguable and you tried to argue against it. Fail.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
An no, Preston doesn't win with a blade, not unless he gets within blades reach of HG.

No, he does win with a blade. It's only your HG fanboyism that thinks a thrown blade does anything but hurt HG's chances. Magically, John Preston stands still while a blade is thrown out him. Get real.

Yeah, Preston probably wins h2h.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
In the dark, with NVG, HG rapes.

Preston>>>>Veidt crylaugh

In the dark, with HG having NVG, Preston rapes. It is not arguable.

Here's the breakdown: John is in a smaller room, more people, with them having better guns. It's completely dark (NVG work by amplifying existing light, in case you were wondering.) He takes them all out in far less time than it does for HG to take out her far less guys. She makes lots of noise: gun firing, reloading, clicking, taking steps, etc.

The guys in her room were making plenty of noise.

BTW, if you respond with another long ass post, I will ignore it. I refuse to have these lengthy debates as they are annoying and time consuming, especially when I'm right and you know I'm right. I wish for once that you would admit you were wrong and just had a bad case of fanboyism.

Yup, Preston is >>>>>> Veidt. Or are you going to continue ot ignore the MVFGR?

WB dadudemon

Originally posted by chomperx9
WB dadudemon

It's great to be back, brother.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I noticed no one answered this.

Bourne and Robocop wouldn't be a problem to avoid. Zero and especially Agent Smith are incredibly super-human though.

Smith could over-tax gunkata, imo. Dude was shown moving at blurring speeds. Zero, possibly.

There's your answer.