Originally posted by truejediI completely agree but I did skim through it and it was thought out. I was also only looking for sources and she DID list them although page numbers would be helpful.
No disrespect to Advent at all, but that post was entirely too long for me even to pretend to read. A point by point argument breaks it up a little. Or even a short post with listed sources.... But that was like a novel. I don't love this place that much.
Originally posted by Advent
Another would be mind tricking Motta the Hutt, a member of the unnaturally strong Force-resistance Hutt species. A good comparison for mind-affecting powers then, based on that latter feat, would be in Episode I, where Qui-Gon Jinn was completely denied by the more easily beguiled Watto.
Wait, is this even Canon? I don't know for sure but I don't think it is... I haven't played the game in a long time though.
Yes master, no master, three bags full master.
How good is she with these powers? Considering how short a time she has been with Malak, it is doubtful that she has achieved anything that is anywhere near mastery with them.
Advents post makes it clear that she is a highly competant and powerful Force-user, and I feel bad that I may parrot it a little. There are many things that support this, for example: She is repeatedly call 'strong' in the force and her strength in it is compared to Revan's own. Her ability to quickly and handily defeat one of Revan's personal Sith guards, who would logically be elite/master level combatants and was tasked with Revan's capture, despite her immense worth to the order and the war, which could only occur if they believed that she had a better chance of success than, say, a jedi master like Vrook or Vandar. The fact that, by Carths admission, she was practically the single thing stopping Revan from steamrolling the Republic, speaks volumes about the fact that they still thought she was the best person to risk sending against Revan. A large variety and range of telekinetic-based techniques, indicating a huge mastery of that skill. Etc Etc. Also, the Force abilities she has are all mid-high level, indicating at least some measure of ability and comfort in their use of them. She isn't going to blow up her own hand with FLightning or any shit like that.
Also, these bits:
At the Temple of the Ancients on Rattaka, three-on-one: Revan, Jolee, and Juhani versus the corrupted Bastila, she was able to fend off and avoid capture, unharmed; only after doing an unalterable (and therefore canonical) move of a telekinetic wave that penetrated the defenses of and knocked down the trio of attackers.
- Finally, according to Champions of the Force Preview 6, "Bastila [is] clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus."
speak for themselves.
Kenobi has already blocked an all-out force shove from the chosen one himself, Bastilla's TK isn't going to be able to spin Kenobi like a top.
If I may parrot Advent again, Anakin wasn't even close to being 100% in that fight, he was emotionally nuked, and even at 100% he wasn't too impressive in the Force anyway.
Kenobi has been attacked with the force by Dooku,
And got owned.
by Assajj
Elaborate please.
In his battle with Durge, he reaches out a hand and blocks ALL of the bullets from what appears to be a mini-gun.
Yet it clearly wasn't, as the 'bullets' were slow as ****.
Bastilla isn't Dooku.
Yet they are on the same tier according to the Champions of the Force preview.
Looks like TK, and nothing else, to be honest. Certainly whirlwind, wave, slow, breach, and stasis field are nothing but TK.
Then by your own admission Bastila is very advanced in the field of TK, as demonstrated by all these variations and techniques based off of it she knows. [b]Muuuuuuuuch[/i] more varied than anything Obi-Wan's ever done, indicating a higher level of skill.
Is "Force rage"
Yes, Sith fuelling themselves with their rage has and always has been canon.
"Force sense"(an apparent ability to sense weapons and med-packs from several floors up) actual abilities?
The ability to sense things through the Force has and always has been canon.
Instant heal med-packs aren't real
Bacta (what I believe medpacks are made of) is canon actually.
and neither is "Force Whirlwind"
Yes it is. It even occurs in a cutscene.
Just because something CAN happen in a game doesn't mean it did happen.
Nevertheless, she demonstrates that she can do it. Revan doesn't have to use a blaster, does this mean she can't? No, becuase she can, even if you don't personally do so.
Originally posted by NephthysAdvents post makes it clear that she is a highly competant and powerful Force-user, and I feel bad that I may parrot it a little. There are many things that support this, for example: She is repeatedly call 'strong' in the force and her strength in it is compared to Revan's own.
Her ability to quickly and handily defeat one of Revan's personal Sith guards, who would logically be elite/master level combatants
I seem to remember Yoda walking into the Senate chamber and crushing two "elite-master level combatants" into a wall. I remember Count Dooku was accompanied by SBD's I remember Grievous was accompanied by chump droids, and that Palpatine was protected in LOE by no-name Jedi, 4 of which were killed by Grievous.
The fact that someone defeated an unknown who was protecting and unknown does not make that person known.
This seems to speak more of the incompetence of the Jedi order than to the competence of the unknown bastilla. because an unknown is POSSIBLY considered stronger than an unknown does not make that unkown known.
and was tasked with Revan's capture, despite her immense worth to the order and the war, which could only occur if they believed that she had a better chance of success than, say, a jedi master like Vrook or Vandar.
The fact that, by Carths admission, she was practically the single thing stopping Revan from steamrolling the Republic, speaks volumes about the fact that they still thought she was the best person to risk sending against Revan.
A large variety and range of telekinetic-based techniques, indicating a huge mastery of that skill.
It means she doesn't have an exotic array however, just a high level ability.Also, the Force abilities she has are all mid-high level, indicating at least some measure of ability and comfort in their use of them. She isn't going to blow up her own hand with FLightning or any shit like that
If I may parrot Advent again, Anakin wasn't even close to being 100% in that fight, he was emotionally nuked, and even at 100% he wasn't too impressive in the Force anyway.
Canon quote saying that the chosen one was too impressive in the Force? Also, canon quote saying Anakin's ability to use TK was diminished during his duel with Kenobi? Provide those and I drop the point.
And got owned.
no.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQTzGzVSHec
at 32s. Kenobi successfully holds off Dooku-Force attack and forces a saber battle. just as he will against Bastilla.
Elaborate please.
In Clone Wars Cartoons.
Yet it clearly wasn't, as the 'bullets' were slow as ****.
Those slow as **** bullets were just as fast as any blasters anyone has ever used onscreen in SW's. They fall under the same "slowed down speed" rules as Mace and SIdious's fight. If you really want to go with "how things look" on screen, then we can say that Bastilla only knows ONE SWING of her lghtsaber, and if any opponent bothers to use a move other than the classic block shown over and over on KOTOR, then she can be killed outright.
Nice try on this one.
Yet they are on the same tier according to the Champions of the Force preview.
and "same tier" remains undefined. In what? Combat? Saber skills? Good looks? Tough to say, isn't it?
Then by your own admission Bastila is very advanced in the field of TK, as demonstrated by all these variations and techniques based off of it she knows. Muuuuuuuuch[/i] more varied than anything Obi-Wan's ever done, indicating a higher level of skill.
Um... blocked the chosen one? You still need to prove Anakin "wasn't all that great in the force anyway." cause I think that is one of the more stupid things you have ever said.
Yes, Sith fuelling themselves with their rage has and always has been canon.
Never has it turned them red. Therefore the ability in the game, as shown in the game, is noncanon
The ability to sense things through the Force has and always has been canon.
enemies, yes. Weapons and medpacks? no.
Bacta (what I believe medpacks are made of) is canon actually.
Nothing in star wars instantly heals you in a middle of a duel, and you KNOW THIS. Either you are having fun with thsi discussion to the point of irresponsibility, or you are desperately stretching.
Yes it is. It even occurs in a cutscene.
Its not WHIRLWIND for the last freaking time. Its tk. And the fact that an opponent can be so badly beaten in TK doesn't speak much of their abilities.
Nevertheless, she demonstrates that she can do it. Revan doesn't have to use a blaster, does this mean she can't? No, becuase she can, even if you don't personally do so. [/B]
So your contention is that Revan (and by extension every companion in KOTOR and KOTOR 2) KNOWS every ability that it is POSSIBLE they could have learned in the game?
Honestly, that is as stupid as anything SW_Legend has ever said. Take it back or be equated with him.
- Finally, according to Champions of the Force Preview 6, "Bastila [is] clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus."
Other than thay good argumets.
Originally posted by truejedi
okay i read it.. : ) maybe i do love this place that much. I problem lies here: When I played Bastilla, I defeated her in 3 double-bladed, JEdi Knight Speed attacks.She used no force powers against me whatsoever.
So to say that these are canon because they were "demonstrated" isn't quite fair, i don't think.
Everyone had a different experience; that's what dice-based action is, True Jedi. However, there are core, "fixed" abilities that each character has, as Nephthys put it. Skills can be gained in this way, too, if they were a result of the game dev's - not the player's - choosing. For example, Juhani knows Force Stun when you acquire her to your crew. Ergo, it is a pre-established power that the gaming developers (gods) assigned to her. It is therefore canon that Juhani knows Force Stun because the PC has no impact on whether or not she possesses it. Even if Juhani never utilizes Force Stun throughout the game, the move would still be known to her in the actual mythology.
In the same vein, all of Bastila's dark side spells are in her arsenal independent of the player and experience. Thus, canon.
One other problem with those: what are "Force whirlwind" "force wave" "force insanity" "force slow" "force breach"
"force plague" "force stasis field"
Looks like TK, and nothing else, to be honest. Certainly whirlwind, wave, slow, breach, and stasis field are nothing but TK.
These attacks are game mechanics, and nothing more.
[list]• Force Plague is an advanced version of Force Slow, "[causing] a target to suffer as though deathly ill from poison" and (from Slow) "clouds the mind, making a target's actions unusually sluggish". Clearly, neither TK.
• Stasis Field is an advanced version of Stun with a tangible energy field, which "allows the Jedi to assault the mind of an opponent...[who] is held in stasis, unable to move or take any action". Clearly, neither TK.
• Force Breach involves a suppression of another's Force power: "[t]his ability will cancel...Force powers active on the target". E.g., if Obi-Wan used Force Speed, Bastila could cast Breach to immediately shut down the effects of the speed. Clearly, not TK.
• Insanity is an advanced version of Force Fear (essentially a dark Jedi mind trick), which has been in C-canon sources beyond sourcebooks - Naga Sadow, Aleema Keto, Darth Zannah, Darth Wyyrlok, all have performed the talent. [/list]
Second, on the issue of whether or not these are "real moves": Even if all of these moves were to never appear outside of a source other than the KOTOR games, the argument that because we don't see these powers existing outside of the game (we obviously do), they are therefore "mechanics" or "not real powers" does not hold much water.
Knights of the Old Republic is C-canon. These moves exist within KOTOR and are attainable, therefore, they, too, would be canon as mythological powers of the era ipso facto.
* The case of Whirlwind and Wave is discussed below.
Is "Force rage" and "Force sense"(an apparent ability to sense weapons and med-packs from several floors up) actual abilities? No. Neither are these.
First, my post never mentioned anything about Force Sense or med-packs. I don't know why you are bringing that up.
Second, Force Rage is a method by which dark siders increase their physical and Force capabilities. It is a staple and simple feat of the dark side. Already posted, this is from the Jedi Academy Training Manuel, on Page 47: "By focusing their anger and hatred, many dark siders are able to fly into a berserker rage, increasing her battle prowess. Using the Force in this way can push the body's physical abilities beyond what it can normally handle."
This is from the Dark Side Sourcebook [2001, {which is two years before KOTOR was released}], Pages 17-18 (cropped for efficicacy; click thumbnails to enlarge):
*Note that it shows Force Fear as a skill in the table in the first scan.
"Rage: You channel your anger into a berserker fury, increasing your battle prowess as you give yourself to the dark side".
This is from the Tales of the Jedi Companion [1996, {almost a decade before KOTOR}], Page 46, under Chapter Three: Jedi Powers:
"Rage allows a character to feel the great influence of the dark side".
Every dark sider in history - from Andeddu to Zannah - have probably used this function (and Jedi, on occasion). Jedi Master Crian Maru used it as a last resort to battle Kaox Krul. Obi-Wan used it in Episode I against Darth Maul after Qui-Gon was killed. Anakin uses it throughout the movies (Dooku, Obi-Wan). Further examples in EU literature include Episode I Journal - Darth Maul, where Maul is about to be tested by Sidious in direct combat - overwhelming physically exhausted from a month's plus of straight, Starkiller-esque survival training, he begged, "Another battle? I can't even walk", however:
"A slow rage begins to burn through me. It is a terrible anger, no less fierce because it starts as a kernel of disbelief and then builds. I have never felt anything like it. I know it can consume. No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master [...] The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles, I can do anything [...]" [Page 51]. He then goes on to give Sidious a helluva' battle and is ultimately christened a Dark Lord of the Sith.
^ To drive the point home: Force Rage in action outside of a game; clearly, making it not a gameplay mechanic.
Instant heal med-packs aren't real, and neither is "Force Whirlwind"There I said it.
While we're agreed that Whirlwind and Wave are variant applications of telekinesis, you are incorrect to categorize it in the same field as insta-heal medi-packs: "unreal". Furthermore, just because it is derived from TK does not mean one will have competency in it or can actively perform it.
Wookiepedia Entry on Force Whirlwind: "The Jedi would alter the air currents around an opponent, turning it into a maelstrom. This swirling force would lift an opponent into the air, spin them around, and completely immobilize them. This allowed the Jedi to attack without resistance. One of the most notable uses of this ability was from Jacen Solo when confronting Tsavong Lah on Duro. Jedi Master Streen and Teneniel Djo demonstrated a natural talent for this ability, as well as Plo Koon, who further modified it with his knowledge. Darth Malak used this ability during his confrontation with Revan on the Leviathan [*Advent Interjection: during a canon cutscene]. The former Dark Lord of the Sith, as well as the Ho'Din Jedi Master Plett may also have known how to use it. This ability was known to the Witches of Dathomir as the Spell of Storm."
...All of the above are from C-canon sources; additionally, it's listed as a power in the TOTJ Companion. Thus, Force Whirlwind is a non-gameplay, independent, Force move. The same can be said for all other talents Bastila is listed as knowing, including Force Wave (which Obi-Wan knows, as well).
[Kurt Angle] Oh, it's real. It's damn real. [/Kurt Angle]
Moreover, Bastila Shan is not an unknown any more than most other characters used in the Versus forum. "BUT ADVENT, WE DON'T KNOW THESE THINGS ABOUT X!" - you're right, this is where we reasonably and logically deduce from established facts to create a platform base on which to argue from. We do know enough about Bastila to make inferences about her talents, and if one is incapable of deriving conclusions (whether sound or not) from the information available, an unknown that makes one not, but a known nincompoop.
Originally posted by truejedi
Also, canon quote saying Anakin's ability to use TK was diminished during his duel with Kenobi? Provide those and I drop the point.
You don't need a canon quote, True Jedi. We've been over this before:
Originally posted by Advent
Let's start with the fact that Anakin wasn't fighting like he does against Dooku. He ends up reverting back to the mindless berserker state that I mentioned earlier. That's number one. Number two, his psychological state was severely f'ed up. He was crazed. He choked his wife, the very reason he turned to the dark side, slaughtered children, and his Jedi brethren. He is shown [b]crying at one point. The mental state is the most important aspect of battle. Bar none.[/B]
A Jedi's ability to use the Force is directly correlated to their mental state. When you are undergoing extreme trauma, as Anakin manifestly was, it naturally follows that his connection to the Force, and therefore strength with it, will be lessened. This is a staple point of all spectrum of the Force; you can find any old Jedi master babbling on about it, but it's very real (well, in the mythos). An example: Anakin was beginning to lose his edge in the duel with Dooku in ROTS until "the terror and the rage [were] out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell". I.e., his attunement to the Force became stronger due to the dispelling of emotional haze, hence allowing him to unleash his real strength.
In Anakin's case, his Force connection would have been down by a great degree, because he did possess and would have had access to a power level that is far greater than 80% of Emperor Palpatine. Unless you want to argue that Obi-Wan had anywhere near that kind of power or demonstrated TK on the levels of Anakin, then your point should be discarded for that reason, too.
no.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQTzGzVSHecat 32s. Kenobi successfully holds off Dooku-Force attack and forces a saber battle. just as he will against Bastilla.
Dooku was utterly toying with Kenobi there with a one-handed, single burst of lightning. He was in complete control the entire time during the AOTC fight with Obi-Wan. He could have dispatched him at any point. As for your assertion at the end, how in Coruscant's name would Kenobi's saber absorb mind-affecting powers or even telekinesis? It wouldn't.
Nephthys and myself were quite obviously referring to the Revenge of the Sith duel:
V6_dxW4NpDU#t=0m34s
The duel starts at 0:36 until 0:42. That's six seconds. A resume at 0:53 until 0:58, with the first Force push, where "the slightest whipcrack of [Dooku's] power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward..." [Revenge of the Sith novelization, TXT]. Aside from the fact Dooku was initially messing around, Obi-wan lasted a whopping 11 seconds before getting Force pwned with casual ease.
Of course, as soon as Obi-Wan is back into the fray at 1:14, just as he attempts his first strike, he is hoisted up into the air like he was Dooku's red-headed stepchild and tossed around like a ragdoll halfway across the room faster than a pack of hounds on a three-legged cat! All while Dooku is simultaneously mule-kicking Anakin.
Yes, just like Bastila Shan will do to him - in smoking Sith style!
@ Blaxican:
That PM you sent me had me literally laughing my ass off, XD! Details will come in due time...in due time.
As for Bastila, she did canonically fall to the Dark Side when Malak captured her on the Leviathan and then tortured her into submission, where she became his Sith Apprentice. Of course, Jesuschrist, I mean Revanchist, redeems her when she confronts him on the Star Forge. After Revan travels out into the Unknown Regions, it's mentioned that Bastila is a surviving member of the Jedi Order (if you choose the canon, Light Side Revan in the beginning dialogue, I believe).
Also, please don't mention Mass Effect. Although I loved the first ME, BioWare pissed me off with ME2 to the point where I paid $60.00 for a game that I couldn't even stomach to play through pass the first five minutes due to shall we say "limited customization" and the fact the game developers wouldn't allow you to skip the damn opening scene and initial play. I should just stick with the trustworthy PC versions of things, where character editing is almost always possible.
Originally posted by NephthysWait, is this even Canon? I don't know for sure but I don't think it is... I haven't played the game in a long time though. [/B][/QUOTE] She can do it. I've had her do it several times. [/B][/QUOTE][QUOTE=12929084]Originally posted by Slash_KMC
[B][QUOTE=12928682]Originally posted by Advent
[B] Another would be mind tricking Motta the Hutt, a member of the unnaturally strong Force-resistance Hutt species. A good comparison for mind-affecting powers then, based on that latter feat, would be in Episode I, where Qui-Gon Jinn was completely denied by the more easily beguiled Watto.
So you're saying it's not Canon. Because it is only a possibility in the game?
Originally posted by RE: BlaxicanAksoka Tano, Brie, that Cathar Jedi from the KotOR comics. Uh, Leia. Some other miscellaneous one-shots whose names escape me because they're useless.
You know, can we really even consider it impressive for people to be called "strong in the force"? Every force user with a name is called "strong in the force" at one point in their career, or "powerful", or "skilled".
Advent, very good posts. I'll address them as soon as DE answers the posts I addressed to him. That way I can do it all in one sitting, and my argument with him doesn't disappear behind pages of text. (you are either more skilled, or more dedicated at cranking out long posts than myself it seems. : )
Originally posted by truejedi
Advent, very good posts. I'll address them as soon as DE answers the posts I addressed to him. That way I can do it all in one sitting, and my argument with him doesn't disappear behind pages of text. (you are either more skilled, or more dedicated at cranking out long posts than myself it seems. : )
...She is quite skilled...
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So you're saying it's not Canon. Because it is only a possibility in the game?
I'll need to re-check, but even if it were only a possibility that Bastila mind-tricked Motta the Hutt, its canonization would only be unknown; not necessarily not-canon. Nevertheless, I'm unsure myself, but I will try out a line of theoretical argument to supersede the notion of "did it happen" on this particular issue. I am going to be operating under the assumption that Bastila did not perform the feat in canon.
Since
Bastila had the ability and Force strength to mind trick Motta the Hutt,
as if she didn't,
it would not even be a possibility in the first place,
It is thus
that it matters not whether or not she actually accomplished the feat, because she could have.
In other words, the gaming developers (I reiterate: gods) gave Bastila enough power to dominate the mind of Motta the Hutt if the player so chose. But, regardless of the player's actions, that power was always there in game coding, so, in theory, Bastila could mind-trick Motta the Hutt if she had or wanted to.
Ergo, it's safe to be used as a gauge for Shan's talents.
Originally posted by truejedi
Advent, very good posts. I'll address them as soon as DE answers the posts I addressed to him. That way I can do it all in one sitting, and my argument with him doesn't disappear behind pages of text. (you are either more skilled, or more dedicated at cranking out long posts than myself it seems. : )
No problem - take as much time as you would like, True Jedi. It is not as if we're discussing how to end world hunger and the world is watching for an answer. It's Star Wars...far more important.
And as for more skilled? Hogwash, meesa thinks! I do not believe in such concepts (or its relevancy, at least). Besides, I recall you giving me a run for my money on the occasions we've clashed.
My whole shtick is argument from verbosity (the germane version; not the fallacious one), which seems to work out quite well because it either puts any opposition to sleep or ends up being too much work to read through - that whole less than 10,000 characters thing is apparently too grueling for the boys at KMC. Still, a pat on the back for you: despite the complaints, you read through my posts (not sure if you fell asleep), but at least you did it!
Postscript: Congratulating someone for reading a post is like the indubitable new-era tradition of positive affirmation for kids - "A Winner Is You": "even though your team lost the tournament and you sat on the bench the entire season, here's your trophy, Timmy, which looks exactly like the champion's one! It even has your name on it in bold print!". Yes, Timmy, let's see what they give you once you get your ass out into the real world - a swift kick is my bet, slacker.
