DS Bastila Shan vs. ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow, my new avatar really can't pull off peppy. It just comes off as creepy.

That's an observation I'd make as well...seriously, tell Garrett to stop staring at me like that!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
My question is, if the canon sources are written years before the games, are they still just as canon?

If the later source merely corroborates or adds to the former source, then sure.

Edit: Do not forget to check the previous page for the post prior to this Slash and True Jedi (depending on your page settings).

Originally posted by Advent
That's an observation I'd make as well...seriously, tell Garrett to stop staring at me like that!

He can't help it, your avatar dresses provocatively. uhuh

Originally posted by Advent
I'll need to re-check, but even if it were only a possibility that Bastila mind-tricked Motta the Hutt, its canonization would only be unknown; not necessarily not-canon. Nevertheless, I'm unsure myself, but I will try out a line of theoretical argument to supersede the notion of "did it happen" on this particular issue. I am going to be operating under the assumption that Bastila did not perform the feat in canon.

Since

Bastila [b]had the ability and Force strength to mind trick Motta the Hutt,

as if she didn't,

it would not even be a possibility in the first place,

It is thus

that it matters not whether or not she actually accomplished the feat, because she could have.

In other words, the gaming developers (I reiterate: gods) gave Bastila enough power to dominate the mind of Motta the Hutt if the player so chose. But, regardless of the player's actions, that power was always there in game coding, so, in theory, Bastila could mind-trick Motta the Hutt if she had or wanted to.

Ergo, it's safe to be used as a gauge for Shan's talents.
[/B]

My initial question was: "Is this even Canon?", I didn't ask if it could be used as a means to gauge Shan's talents. But obviously you knew that and were merely giving some additional information because you thought I was implying that this could not be used as a feat for Bastila. My next question was; if having the possibility to do something involving skills in the game, does it make these skills canon. Your answer to this was: "Its canonization would only be unknown; not necessarily not-canon." So I assume this would also mean it is not necessarily canon.

All in all, I can say that her Hutt mind controlling powers are not canon because they are unknown (not required to progress in the game), unless you can prove that you had to do this in order to progress in the game. I'm saying this because I'm under the assumption that something is only canon when proven to be. You’re always allowed to correct me on the matter if I’m wrong though.

Now all BS aside, about this additional information you have so gladly given me. Are you saying that everything a character could possibly do in a game can be used to gauge his/her powers? That is a rhetorical question because I know you will answer yes. But I’m just asking to make sure, because I’d like to borrow your awe-inspiring reasoning skill on a matter called Revan:

Revan had the ability to learn and control the powerful Force Power: Force Storm

as if he didn't,

it would not even be a possibility in the first place,

It is thus

that it matters not whether or not he actually could have learned and controlled it, because he could have.

In other words, the gaming developers (I reiterate: gods) gave Revan enough power to learn and control Force Storm if the player so chose. But, regardless of the player's actions, that power was always there in game coding, so, in theory, Revan could master Force Storm if he wanted to.

Ergo, it's safe to be used as a gauge for Revan’s strengths.

Correct me if I’m wrong. People love it when you correct them.

Revan always has the potential to learn Force Storm, and the power to use it, but doesn't canonally learn it and it can't be used in a forum match. Bastila always has the power necessary to Mind **** Motta the Hutt, but doesn't necessarily do it, and it isn't canon that she does, but she can do it. Thats how I see it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan always has the [b]potential to learn Force Storm, and the power to use it, but doesn't canonally learn it and it can't be used in a forum match. Bastila always has the power necessary to Mind **** Motta the Hutt, but doesn't necessarily do it, and it isn't canon that she does, but she can do it. Thats how I see it. [/B]

So it practically comes down to Revan (and the other Jedi) having the power to use Force Storm, which is like I said, a gauge for Revan's strengths. I'm not going to start about all the characters that can become Jedi and also having the power to accomplish amazing feats in KOTOR 2.

Btw Exodus, I think TJ is waiting for your responses.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
My initial question was: "Is this even Canon?", I didn't ask if it could be used as a means to gauge Shan's talents. But obviously you knew that and were merely giving some additional information because you thought I was implying that this could not be used as a feat for Bastila. My next question was; if having the possibility to do something involving skills in the game, does it make these skills canon. Your answer to this was: "Its canonization would only be unknown; not necessarily not-canon." So I assume this would also mean it is not necessarily canon.

All in all, I can say that her Hutt mind controlling powers are not canon because they are unknown (not required to progress in the game), unless you can prove that you had to do this in order to progress in the game. I'm saying this because I'm under the assumption that something is only canon when proven to be. You’re always allowed to correct me on the matter if I’m wrong though.

If something is unknown, then you cannot claim to know it. Simple.

A declaration of "not-canon" violates that premise, ipso facto, you have claimed to know something which you claim is unknowable.

Canon means continuity; canon, in the sense we're talking, means what actually occurred. We cannot declare incongruity without first knowing if something actually occurred. Hence, an "unknown" would not be categorized as "not-canon" unless it can be demonstrated as such (which optionality does not demonstrate).

Now all BS aside, about this additional information you have so gladly given me. Are you saying that everything a character could possibly do in a game can be used to gauge his/her powers? That is a rhetorical question because I know you will answer yes. But I’m just asking to make sure, because I’d like to borrow your awe-inspiring reasoning skill on a matter called Revan:

[quote] Revan had the ability to learn and control the powerful Force Power: Force Storm

as if he didn't,

it would not even be a possibility in the first place,

It is thus

that it matters not whether or not he actually could have learned and controlled it, because he could have.

In other words, the gaming developers (I reiterate: gods) gave Revan enough power to learn and control Force Storm if the player so chose. But, regardless of the player's actions, that power was always there in game coding, so, in theory, Revan could master Force Storm if he wanted to.

Ergo, it's safe to be used as a gauge for Revan’s strengths.

Correct me if I’m wrong. People love it when you correct them. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, because you seem to be so earnestly begging for it, correction incoming: I really don't see your "Revan Twist" to the dubbed "awe-inspiring logic" being anything more than a faulty comparison - a logical fallacy, albeit a clever one at that.

First, Bastila and the Motta the Hutt scenario is entirely different. Bastila was pre-programmed with that power and ability. She did not have to learn it or acquire strength or experience points through a series of role-playing game mechanics as Revan would have had to in order to learn Force Storm.

Second: 'Nuff said.

Btw Exodus, I think TJ is waiting for your responses.

My Wankers Cramp is telling me he'll probably have to wait till tomorrow.

Originally posted by Advent
If something is unknown, then you cannot claim to know it. Simple.

A declaration of "not-canon" violates that premise, ipso facto, you have claimed to know something which you claim is unknowable.

Canon means continuity; canon, in the sense we're talking, means what actually occurred. We cannot declare incongruity without first knowing if something actually occurred. Hence, an "unknown" would not be categorized as "not-canon" unless it can be demonstrated as such (which optionality does not demonstrate).

I’m probably too simple, I divide between not-canon and canon, but I forgot about the limbo in between. It was foolish of me to put everything that is not proven to be canon under the category “not-canon”. I should put everything that isn’t canon now, but may be canon when a miracle happens and the creators give an exact canon playthrough of the game under the label “not yet canon”. You’re probably going to label the limbo “unknown”. Or do you have a better suggestion?

Originally posted by Advent
Well, because you seem to be so earnestly begging for it, correction incoming: I really don't see your "Revan Twist" to the dubbed "awe-inspiring logic" being anything more than a faulty comparison - a logical fallacy, albeit a clever one at that.

Bastila and the Motta the Hutt scenario is entirely different. Bastila was [b]pre-programmed with that power and ability. She did not have to learn it or acquire strength or experience points through a series of role-playing game mechanics as Revan would have had to in order to learn Force Storm.
[/B]

I still don’t remember that scene and I’ve played the game dozens of times. But I’m talking about Revan at the end of KOTOR, when he had acquired the strength and experience that would be more than enough to use Force Storm for example. There he is able to learn it so he has enough power to use it. So Revan is pre-programmed, like Bastila to have the power to use Force Storm.

Originally posted by Nephthys
My Wankers Cramp is telling me he'll probably have to wait till tomorrow.

You should have someone look at that… not me. Find some sexy female/male (whatever your preference is) who is in desperate need of money and fix the problem.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I’m probably too simple, I divide between not-canon and canon, but I forgot about the limbo in between. It was foolish of me to put everything that is not proven to be canon under the category “not-canon”. I should put everything that isn’t canon now, but may be canon when a miracle happens and the creators give an exact canon playthrough of the game under the label “not yet canon”. You’re probably going to label the limbo “unknown”. Or do you have a better suggestion?

A better suggestion than "unknown canon"? No, that's what I believe to be the proper placement for things such as this, where we know something might have happened.

I still don’t remember that scene and I’ve played the game dozens of times. But I’m talking about Revan at the end of KOTOR, when he had acquired the strength and experience that would be more than enough to use Force Storm for example. There he is able to learn it so he has enough power to use it. So Revan is pre-programmed, like Bastila to have the power to use Force Storm.

Except Revan is not pre-programmed with Force Storm if he has to learn it first. Powers acquired are not the same as powers pre-defined.

And that's where the main flaw of the false analogy is exposed by the very text typed by your own hand: "when he had acquired the strength and experience", which is done by playing the game; i.e., game-play mechanics, which are non-canon. There are no "skill points" to delegate in the actual mythology, nor did Bastila need to gain experience points for her to accomplish what she did. She came equipped with the power to mind trick Motta the Hutt.

To make myself clearer: by "pre-programmed", I am specifically referring to the act of the gaming developers defining certain character abilities independent of the player, experience, or D-20 game mechanisms.

Originally posted by Advent
A better suggestion than "unknown canon"?

Well, let me rephrase that to "unknown-if-canon" or "canonicity unknown"; whichever sounds prettier.

I like "of unascertained canonicity". It's the most audiologically pleasing.

Nephthys agrees. 😐

Wait, since when can Revan NOT use the force storm? I'm not going to say he invented it but it's pretty obvious that is one of the main powers in his arsenal.

Originally posted by Advent
A better suggestion than "unknown canon"? No, that's what I believe to be the proper placement for things such as this, where we know something might have happened.

[QUOTE=12931251]Originally posted by Advent
[B]Well, let me rephrase that to "unknown-if-canon" or "canonicity unknown"; whichever sounds prettier.

The latter. But just to make things clear, you still think it’s good logic to use unknown canon as an example for someone’s power, right?

Except Revan is not pre-programmed with Force Storm if he has to learn it first. Powers acquired are not the same as powers pre-defined.

And that's where the main flaw of the false analogy is exposed by the very text typed by your own hand: "when he had [b]acquired the strength and experience", which is done by playing the game; i.e., game-play mechanics, which are non-canon. There are no "skill points" to delegate in the actual mythology, nor did Bastila need to gain experience points for her to accomplish what she did. She came equipped with the power to mind trick Motta the Hutt.

To make myself clearer: by "pre-programmed", I am specifically referring to the act of the gaming developers defining certain character abilities independent of the player, experience, or D-20 game mechanisms. [/B]

Now I really hope that one of the makers is going to reveal that Revan kept Bastila locked up in his Ebon Hawk basement like I did. I bet I could think of other crazy stuff that isn’t influenced by game-play mechanics and is optional, but too weird to use as a gauge for someone’s talents. If we’re talking about all the characters turning Jedi (being Force sensitive) in KOTOR 2, is this unknown canon or non-canon? I’ve been playing too much Mass Effect to still remember much of KOTOR game mechanics. You had to give Revan persuasion points right?

Damnit, another thing I totally forgot to mention. Can you proof that a Toydarian is more easily affected by Force mind control than a Hutt. I don’t think we have ever seen a Toydarian been affected by it so who says that Bastila could do the same to Watto as to Motta.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wait, since when can Revan NOT use the force storm? I'm not going to say he invented it but it's pretty obvious that is one of the main powers in his arsenal.

Advent says that anything acquired by game-play mechanics and is not required to progress the game, is not canon. Apparently everything else in the game is not, not canon and not not canon =/= canon. Sometimes.

Advent says that anything acquired by game-play mechanics and is not required to progress the game, is not canon. Apparently everything else in the game is not, not canon and not not canon =/= canon. Sometimes.

But the force storm is almost impossible not to acquire in this game. You may not choose it but by the 5th or 6th mission, it's definitely there.

But just to make things clear, you still think it’s good logic to use unknown canon as an example for someone’s power, right?

Yes.

The bipartite ending to TFU contains a thorough shellacking of our noble protagonist by the old pedophileEmperor, as well as a self-sacrifice. Despite the fact that the self-sacrifice (light side ending) is the canon ending for the game, it is entirely reasonable to cite the Dark Side ending (in which Starkiller gets beat like a foster-child) as an example of his strength in relation to the Emperor.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
But the force storm is almost impossible not to acquire in this game. You may not choose it but by the 5th or 6th mission, it's definitely there.

It has to be programmed from the beginning. If I decide to let Bastila "basement" Shan behind, she still would have been able to do her little trick even if you don't bring her. Force Storm is not a power set from the beginning.

Srsly, I really need someone to post a screenshot or to tape Motta being Force mind tricked. I have a feeling that Advent just used Wookie as a source here.

It's strange to argue that Revan doesn't have the force storm. He's the first character we ever see using it. Oh well.

I can vouch for it. First you have to fail to (force?) persuade Motta into letting that douchebag prodigy racer have a better contract, so Bas steps in and shows you how its done.

It's strange to argue that Revan doesn't have the force storm. He's the first character we ever see using it. Oh well.

Getting it is completely up to the player, so its non-canon gameplay, but doesn't one of the Rakatan mention that Darth Revan used something that sounded a lot like Force Storm against them?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can vouch for it. First you have to fail to (force?) persuade Motta into letting that douchebag prodigy racer have a better contract, so Bas steps in and shows you how its done.

Revan is so incompetent.