DS Bastila Shan vs. ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by truejedi
Same argument here as I used for the mental attacks. I don't think we are as far apart as I initially thought. These are TK attacks. The NAME of the attacks are merely a gameplay mechanic that allows the player to access the use of the force in that way.
Yes, they use the force to create a whirlwind, sure, but it is still just TK. So i don't deny the ability, just the pokemon name and the fact that such an attack would be so utterly unknown to Kenobi that he couldn't counter it. It is just TK after all.
our argument in a single sentence:
Kenobi wasn't using Force Wave, he was reaching out with the force to knock Anakin over.
So really I don't think we disagree THAT much... if you know what I mean.

Foremost, yes, we are totally agreed that powers like telekinesis and mind-influence are the base from which their various applications stem from and the RPG names are merely describing said application of the Force. We also agree that, for some usages of the Force, such as utilizing rage to fuel yourself, do not necessarily need to be learned (although, to be effectively controlled, it certainly would require experience; trained or in the field). However, what I firmly disagreed upon is two-fold:

1. It is invalid to beg the question, a logical fallacy, to establish the grounds on which to state "[Kenobi can defend]", as you never did prove the claim that Kenobi could defend against Bastila's telekinesis or any of her powers. While it may be that he has the possible defenses to keep himself from harm from someone else's TK, knowledge does not equal defense if your opponent is stronger than you (or if you're overwhelmed). It is relative - the relationship of power between the attacker to the defender or vice versa.

For example, Kenobi could be Force Pushed by Yoda because any defenses would be over-powered. Thus, your assertion of Kenobi countering is a non sequitur.

Ergo, the onus would be upon you to establish that Kenobi can defend against Bastila's attacks - any of them; petitio principii (begging the question) is not a valid argument. And it would not be especially convincing to argue the arsenal of Shan's Sith spells completely unknown to Kenobi are going to be met with anything other than mere submission. When one considers the comparison of Force strength - Bastila has the high ground.

2. Every word has a definition. Every power has a definition, whether or not it is a variant derivative; therefore, it is more than acceptable (it is welcomed) to use terms such as Force Rage or Force Whirlwind to describe what is being done with the Force or what the combatants are willing to do as per their character or knowledge. It's a damned Versus forum, not a storybook.

The names are labels for actual applications of the Force - telekinesis or otherwise. While, at its basest of forms, all techniques are merely "using the Force in way X", the training or familiarity necessary to become proficient in X is what denotes itself as an independent, albeit possibly variant ability. All of Bastila's listed Force powers,

Originally posted by Advent
[list]• Force Slam, Force Grip [Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide],
• Sever Force, Battlemind (a personal applicant or variant of Battle Meditation will no ill effects for opponent), Battle Influence [Star Wars Miniatures, Champions of the Force],
• Dominate Mind, Force Stun, Force Whirlwind, Slow, Force Insanity, Force Choke, Force Wave, Force Lightning, Force Plague, Force Breach, Drain Life, Force Stasis Field [demonstrated Knights of the Old Republic, within canon]. [/list]

...classify under that.

Also, final point of contention, IF (and I absolutely do not) I couldn't counter the above and said, you are absolutely correct, and Bastilla knew all of these exotic techniques, then I would want some sort of idea HOW POWERFUL she was with each one before it could be said it would make a difference in a duel with Kenobi. A level 2, or Level 3 means nothing. There were a lot of other factors in KOTOR as well, the force ability of the user, if the user was dark-side or light-side, what special clothing the user was wearing...

Its absolutely unquantifiable exactly "how good" at force plague bastilla was.

First, in accordance with the stance taken, all mind-affecting powers are ultimately based on the applier's mind compared to the target's - willpower, training, and strength in the Force all must be taken into account. So,

because her Sith powers (Grip, Plague, Breach, Stasis Field, Insanity) are mental-based, and

because "through sheer force of will [Shan] could influence the course of massive battles...bolstering the courage of one side...while draining the other", which means having control over the psyche of thousands upon thousands of Jedi and Sith, Dark Jedi, mercenaries, officers and troopers on both sides, and

because "Jedi Battle Meditation [was] a rare ability usually only accessible to the most skilled and wizened Jedi Masters" [Star Wars Databank, Bastila Shan],

it is obvious that Shan's training was extensively focused on influencing the mind of another,

which her feats demonstrate: BM, her ability to create Force Bonds - such as the one linking her life-force to Darth Revan, the only thing keeping him alive, dominating Motta the Hutt's mind, simultaneously Force Stunning Jolee Bindo and Juhani, and

because she was one of the strongest Force users of the era; undeniably, the second strongest Sith in the entire battle-hardened, power-obsessed Empire,

It is therefore a safe and logical assumption to make that Bastila would be more than capable of mangling someone like Obi-Wan "Got-Pwned-With-A-Flick-Of-The-Wrist" Kenobi with any of the aforementioned powers she knows [thus, quantified], assuming she had the proper training with them, leading to my second point.

Second, the above taken into consideration, it is reasonable to conclude that Bastila would have the proper training in the techniques described: (1) ipso facto, she could actively perform them in combat, (2) considering Bastila's prodigious learning capabilities, combined with the fact that - at the very least - she spent several weeks of formal training under Malak, an established Dark Lord of the Sith with an implicit familiarity with these moves and a specific intent for wanting her to learn as much as possible - Revan - which gives us a rational reason for the variety of moves taught, and (3) in the case of virtually all her new-found powers (e.g., Grip, Plague, Stasis Field, and Insanity), she had already been familiar with the derivative moves from which the powers stemmed (Grip: TK, Plague: Slow, Stasis Field: Stun, Insanity: Dominate Mind).

Bastila wins, period.

Ignoring any points already addressed,

Originally posted by truejedi
I brought up instant medpacks and force sensing of weapons, because those are things" that exist within the C-Canon world of KOTOR and are attainable" You used that exact quote to call those force powers canon, however, those instant medpacks and force sensing of weapons fit exactly the same category, and are still non-canon as far as we know.

Insta-heal med-packs were never shown in a cutscene. Moves like Force Whirlwind were. Ergo, you've made a faulty analogy, and a logical fallacy.

- To make the analogy even faultier, the quickness of the med-packs is nothing more than a game-play mechanic - you are comparing a game's health mechanism to the Force. I'm sure BioWare would have totally pleased gamers if they could not heal in mid-combat without acquiring (and thus, spending points on) the necessary Force Power. Alright, insta-heal med-packs didn't exist and were attainable, but we know Force Powers existed, therefore there is absolutely no reason that an attainable Force Power in KOTOR would be anything other than mythologically established.

- To make the analogy even faultier and demonstrate that insta-heal med-packs were nothing more than game-play mechanics, med-packs were very mythologically real. Quite obviously, as said, BioWare didn't want the player to die countless times and wanted a means of relief for low health in mid-combat. Rather than portray it true-to-mythos and have the player have to sit and personally unravel a medical kit to stitch invisible wounds and no blood, they opted for insta-heal med-packs.

- To make the analogy confusing, there was no "Weapon Force Sense", as far as I recall. Could you be more clear, please? Are you referring to the loot system, which would qualify for game-play mechanic, too? Or are you talking about Feats, which merely describe a proficiency in X? Either would be nothing more than irrelevant at least, faulty analogy at worst.

As for Slash,

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Everything that is not included in canon at the moment is not canon until it is proven to have actually happened and can then be included in the canon. There is just no in between canon and non canon. Possibly canon is not canon.

That clears the issue up: when I refer to the the word "canon", I am using it interchangeably with the word "mythology". The history of Star Wars, that is. Since an event either happened or it did not in the historical universe (there is no "in-between"😉, anything unknown would be just that: of unascertained canonicity. Your usage of the word is basically "What-We-Know", except that doesn't take into account what we don't know other than to call it "Non-Canon", despite the fact it may very well have mythologically occurred. That's fine. That's not something that I feel the need to debate over.

As for mind tricks and weak minds,

Originally posted by truejedi, ares, Slash KMC, et alii
ADVENT, OLD BEN SAID MIND TRICKS ONLY WORK ON THE WEAK-MINDED, SO MIND TRICKS ONLY WORK ON THE WEAK MINDED. PROVED!

To make this topic short and sweet, first we will define the terms. From the C-Canon Empire at War, the broader description of what a mind-trick is:

"Mind tricks refer to a spectrum of Force powers which influenced the thoughts of sentient creatures."

Clearly, it's merely mind-influence, which is relative. What is relativity?

[list]relative, n.
something having, or standing in, some relation to something else.[/list]

"Weak-minded" is relative. To whom are you comparing the mind? Or on what basis is a mind weak? Watch the Episode IV scene again; notice that it's a Master Jedi hermit-crab, who has been meditating upon the Force for practically five decades (virtually two decades straight), and it's a pair of idiotic, non-Force sensitive, non-Force resistant Stormtroopers. That is not proof of anything of other than Kenobi was strong enough to trick those two, which shows nothing aside from relativity. Period.

You're still undecided? That is, anyone. Would you like to know more?

YouTube video

During Cad Bane's interrogation in the Clone Wars series, the Jedi decide to attempt a combined mind-trick on him, which prior Obi-Wan admits that "using the Force to compel a strong mind is...risky", not impossible, Mace Windu tacitly agrees with that when he says " [...] his mind could be destroyed". Cad Bane, who Obi-Wan contends is not weak-minded, is on the tip of submitting to the will of the Jedi, but keep in mind the context: the Jedi did not want to hurt him, instead exercising care and caution. Thus, demonstrating relativity.

Would you like to know more? This is ultimately all a mind-trick:

Notice how Darth Andeddu proclaims "Your mind is no match for mine!", which denotes relatively.

Oh, shit. Is that Darth "God-King" Andeddu getting killed by Darth Wyyrlok's mind-manipulation? Wait, so Darth Andendu, the Ancient Sith who also influenced Wyyrlok's mind, is weak-minded? So, they're both the lesser of Ahsoka Tano? The argument boils down to reductio ad absurdum, a logical fallacy.

Would you like to know more? Your circumstantial evidence to the contrary consists of what is known as amphiboly (Greek: "indeterminate), a fallacy of ambiguity, for what I detailed earlier in the "Watch Episode IV" bit of my post.

Would you like to know more? The answer: it's factual that the ability to influence minds is based primarily on the strength of mind, training, and Force power ratio of the attacker to the defender.

Would you like to know more?

To the virtual non-issue of Motta the Hutt and Watto,

Let me stress to the both of the two who brought this up, Slash KMC and True Jedi, how insignificant, how minor, how gosh-darn pointless as to whether or not Bastila is going to mop the floor red with Obi-Wan or to establishing Bastila's mind-altering powers, the mind-trick comparison of Motta the Hutt and Shan to Watto and Qui-Gon is.

Stop nitpicking. Contrary to popular belief, throwing a red herring across the tracks will not throw this foxhound off.

I know what you're thinking:

"Did she write a response to the issue or did she write nothing?"

Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kind of lost track myself. But being that this is Advent, the most long-winded arguer on the Versus forum, and would blow your reasoning clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question:

"Do I feel lucky?"

...Well...do ya', punk?

I think their point to the Motta example was the you seemed willing to use ambiguous and wholly unknown situations, a taboo here.

Originally posted by Advent
of unascertained canonicity

😄

Originally posted by Advent

YouTube video

Aaaaaah, what the **** is this... This is just aweful, this is terrible, this is completely destroying everything that was once beautiful. C'mon!

The hell... damn this crap.

Originally posted by Advent
To the virtual non-issue of Motta the Hutt and Watto,

Let me stress to the both of the two who brought this up, Slash KMC and True Jedi, how insignificant, how minor, how gosh-darn pointless as to whether or not Bastila is going to mop the floor red with Obi-Wan or to establishing Bastila's mind-altering powers, the mind-trick comparison of Motta the Hutt and Shan to Watto and Qui-Gon is.

[b]Stop nitpicking. Contrary to popular belief, throwing a red herring across the tracks will not throw this foxhound off.

I know what you're thinking:

"Did she write a response to the issue or did she write nothing?"

Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kind of lost track myself. But being that this is Advent, the most long-winded arguer on the Versus forum, and would blow your reasoning clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question:

"Do I feel lucky?"

...Well...do ya', punk? [/B]

We're allowed to nitpick, it's what we do. You still haven't proven that any Toydarian can be Force mind controlled. While a Hutt obviously can be, so this seriously makes me question if your comparison is a legit one.

Another reason why the TV show sucks so much ass.

Not the biggest reason though.

Srsly, they're chanting? "Let's combine our Force Powers guys then we can also form the Mega Zord and destroy our foes!!"

I'm pretty sure that Zordon is actually Obi-Wan Kenobi.

No, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace are all rangers. If I were good with photoshop, I'd put morphers in their hands:

1:15 "Mastodont!"

1:20 "Triceratops!"

1:26 "Tyranosaurus!"

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
No, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace are all rangers. If I were good with photoshop, I'd put morphers in their hands:

1:15 "Mastodont!"

1:20 "Triceratops!"

1:26 "Tyranosaurus!"

Originally posted by Advent

It is therefore a safe and logical assumption to make that Bastila would be more than capable of mangling someone like Obi-Wan "Got-Pwned-With-A-Flick-Of-The-Wrist" Kenobi with any of the aforementioned powers she knows [thus, quantified], assuming she had the proper training with them, leading to my second point.

Even though I'm not taking sides yet I must say to Obi-Wan's defense that it was Dooku who did Flick-Of-The-Wrist. But from the looks of your great admiration for Bastila I bet you also think she could beat Dooku, right?

If she can defeat Dooku, and because Revan is more powerful than Bastila, I can only conclude that Revan is very high on the "most powerful Force user" list.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Which one's the racist Jedi?

Good stuff! I guess I should've made Mace the black ranger.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Even though I'm not taking sides yet I must say to Obi-Wan's defense that it was Dooku who did Flick-Of-The-Wrist. But from the looks of your great admiration for Bastila I bet you also think she could beat Dooku, right?

If she can defeat Dooku, and because Revan is more powerful than Bastila, I can only conclude that Revan is very high on the "most powerful Force user" list.

Originally posted by Advent
Foremost, yes, we are totally agreed that powers like telekinesis and mind-influence are the base from which their various applications stem from and the RPG names are merely describing said application of the Force. We also agree that, for some usages of the Force, such as utilizing rage to fuel yourself, do not necessarily need to be learned (although, to be effectively controlled, it certainly would require experience; trained or in the field).

gooooood everything is proceeding as I had forseen. (though your cowardly side-kick, DE has vanished, leaving his posts undefended, and therefore debunked)

However, what I firmly disagreed upon is two-fold:

1. It is invalid to beg the question, a logical fallacy, to establish the grounds on which to state "[Kenobi can defend]", as you never did prove the claim that Kenobi could defend against Bastila's telekinesis or any of her powers. While it may be that he has the possible defenses to keep himself from harm from someone else's TK, knowledge does not equal defense if your opponent is stronger than you (or if you're overwhelmed). It is relative - the relationship of power between the attacker to the defender or vice versa.

You overstep here Advent, and you rarely do, so it is necessary to point it out. You just asked me to prove a that Kenobi can defend against Bastilla. You, however, have not proven that Bastilla is of comparable power to.... ANYONE. We know Kenobi can defend against Skywalker (whether or not his power was weakened when Kenobi did is irrelevant, you haven't proven Bastilla is even with even a weakened Skywalker)

Your relationship of the power between attacker and defender has to automatically favor Bastilla, or else your argument doesn't help her at all.

However, you have established no such lop-sided relationship. I would argue that in the force, Kenobi has more canon feats than Bastilla does. Her displayed feats are next to nothing, so we have no idea what the quality of her (granted, proven) various exotic attacks are.

For example, Kenobi could be Force Pushed by Yoda because any defenses would be over-powered. Thus, your assertion of Kenobi countering is a non sequitur.

This is definitly a straw-man. If I bought it, i would be arguing that Kenobi could fight Yoda's force power, and you would trounce me in such a discussion.

However: Yoda >>>>>Bastilla. You haven't established any sort of power level to concretely say that Bastilla is at all more powerful than Kenobi in the force. Once again, actual demonstrated ability seems to favor Kenobi.

Ergo, the onus would be upon you to establish that Kenobi can defend against Bastila's attacks - any of them; petitio principii (begging the question) is not a valid argument.

No, you absolutely MUST establish that Bastilla is Kenobi's equal in the force, something you haven't done yet. Knowing a technique is not the same as being stronger than a Jedi Council Member in the Golden Age of the Jedi, not by a LOOOOOOONNNG shot. You have, and I Give you that much, established that Bastilla knew how to manipulate the force in ways that proves her competent. It does not, however, prove her at a higher level than a high-end Jedi master. That, you still need to bring to the table. I, with no small knowledge of Star Wars myself, happen to believe such evidence does not exist. If you can bring it, bring it, and I'll change my mind.

And it would not be especially convincing to argue the arsenal of Shan's Sith spells completely unknown to Kenobi are going to be met with anything other than mere submission.

When one considers the comparison of Force strength - Bastila has the high ground.

You really haven't shown that yet Advent.

(several more posts to follow...)

2. Every word has a definition. Every power has a definition, whether or not it is a variant derivative; therefore, it is more than acceptable (it is welcomed) to use terms such as Force Rage or Force Whirlwind to describe what is being done with the Force or what the combatants are willing to do as per their character or knowledge. It's a damned Versus forum, not a storybook.

This i'm fine with, as long as you don't act like every attack is some exotic thing Kenobi has never heard of. You are describing(with your Force Rage, and your Force Plague, and Your Force Wave) variations of actions he is perfectly familiar with.

First, in accordance with the stance taken, all mind-affecting powers are ultimately based on the applier's mind compared to the target's - willpower, training, and strength in the Force all must be taken into account.

Obviously. And Once again, by your own clip, the fact that 3 high-end Jedi and one talented Padawan failed to immediately overpower the mind of a single non-force sensitive tells me that Bastilla is going to have be on a ridiculously high level of force power compared to Kenobi to succeed with a mental attack. You have established no such superiority.

because her Sith powers (Grip, Plague, Breach, Stasis Field, Insanity) are mental-based, and

because "through sheer force of will [Shan] could influence the course of massive battles...bolstering the courage of one side...while draining the other", which means having control over the psyche of thousands upon thousands of Jedi and Sith, Dark Jedi, mercenaries, officers and troopers on both sides,

Bastilla Shan did not control the minds of everyone on the battlefield. That is a ridiculous stretch. Affect their minds through a gift that she was born with, and no one else had, yes, CONTROL their minds? Mind control is what Exar Kun did to Gantoris. Battle-meld/meditation is not nearly the same thing, as shown by Caedus in LOTF.

because[/i] "Jedi Battle Meditation [was] a rare ability usually only accessible to the most skilled and wizened Jedi Masters" [Star Wars Databank,

Allow me to bold the important words there:

because "Jedi Battle Meditation [was] a rare ability usually only accessible to the most skilled and wizened Jedi Masters"

Usually is a good word, and WIZENED means obviously this statement didn't apply in Bastilla's case. Bastilla was obviously NOT wizened.

it is obvious that Shan's training was extensively focused on influencing the mind of another,

I would ALMOST agree with you, until, as you pointed out, she was sent on a strike team to take out revan. So maybe not.

which her feats demonstrate: BM, her ability to create Force Bonds - such as the one linking her life-force to Darth Revan, the only thing keeping him alive,

Now maybe i'm wrong, and if so, please correct me, but wasn't REVAN the one responsible for that force-bond?

dominating Motta the Hutt's mind, simultaneously Force Stunning Jolee Bindo and Juhani, and

because she was one of the strongest Force users of the era; undeniably, the second strongest Sith in the entire battle-hardened, power-obsessed Empire,

It is therefore a safe and logical assumption to make that Bastila would be more than capable of mangling someone like Obi-Wan "Got-Pwned-With-A-Flick-Of-The-Wrist" Kenobi with any of the aforementioned powers she knows [thus, quantified], assuming she had the proper training with them, leading to my second point.

Wait.... "she knows[thus, quantified?]"

Take that back. That is terrible logic. I give you permission to withdraw it. Knowing something is not quantifying someone's ability with it. The words mean two different things. (every word has a definition, as you have pointed out already)

Dismiss Kenobi if you will. And he was beaten by Dooku with the force. However, to compare Bastilla to Dooku is really asking for a lot of blind faith from us, your faithful readers.

Second, the above taken into consideration, it is reasonable to conclude that Bastila would have the proper training in the techniques described: (1) ipso facto, she could actively perform them in combat, (2) considering Bastila's prodigious learning capabilities, combined with the fact that - at the very least - she spent several weeks of formal training under Malak,

I have to cut you off right there.

At the very least, several weeks....

2nd, Reasonable? I agree completely. Everything you are saying about Bastilla is perfectly reasonable, and I even agree with most of it, in principle. However, this is KMC, and here, reasonable isn't good enough. You have to prove it.

Character with proof>Character with Reason, EVERY TIME

Originally posted by truejedi
2nd, Reasonable? I agree completely. Everything you are saying about Bastilla is perfectly reasonable, and I even agree with most of it, in principle. However, this is KMC, and here, reasonable isn't good enough. You have to prove it. [/B]

It's "Lehon" BTW.

fixed! and that would be fun... but a different kind of fun... It would feel less-intellecual somehow. It would turn into a game of "let's suppose." and everyone's opinions would be perfectly valid... and you know what? Its kinda making me sick just thinking about it.

@ True Jedi,

Originally posted by Advent
First, we'll start with that skill set, which includes:

[list]• Force Slam, Force Grip [Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide],
• Sever Force, Battlemind (a personal applicant or variant of Battle Meditation will no ill effects for opponent), Battle Influence [Star Wars Miniatures, Champions of the Force],
• Dominate Mind, Force Stun, Force Whirlwind, Slow, Force Insanity, Force Choke, Force Wave, Force Lightning, Force Plague, Force Breach, Drain Life, Force Stasis Field [demonstrated Knights of the Old Republic, within canon]. [/list]

Second, Obi-Wan's greatest feat with the Force, as far as I know, was perhaps moving a small transportation vehicle several yards with telekinesis or matching the mentally-trainwrecked (and therefore, weakened Force connection) Anakin Skywalker. This notwithstanding, Obi-Wan is a Jedi, ergo he's restricted in terms of powers, basically limiting his repertoire to TK.

Third, of all those powers listed, there's several Kenobi would be unfamiliar with, and in general, he would be unfamiliar on how to handle such an encounter of ancient abilities executed with Bastila's Force strength and penchant for mind-alteration. When we bring her Battle Meditation into perspective, it shows us how deeply she can affect a being's psyche. What is Battle Meditation main operating mechanic?

"Shan was gifted in art of Jedi Battle Meditation, a rare ability usually only accessible to the most skilled and wizened Jedi Masters. [b]Through sheer force of will, she could influence the course of massive battles. She could bolster the courage of one side of a battle, while draining the resolve of another." [Star Wars Databank, Bastila Shan]

A direct example of her willpower to affect others would be simultaneously Force Stunning Juhani and Jolee Bindo. Another would be mind tricking Motta the Hutt, a member of the unnaturally strong Force-resistance Hutt species. A good comparison for mind-affecting powers then, based on that latter feat, would be in Episode I, where Qui-Gon Jinn was completely denied by the more easily beguiled Watto.

That's where it's obvious that Obi-Wan just wouldn't be able to withstand a savage barrage from Shan due to her mind's fortitude. With the dark side spells learned under Malak, there's no way Obi "Force Pwned by a flick of the wrist" Kenobi can contend with Bastila.

A fair point. Obi-Wan would likely be able to take down Bastila in a battle where Shan is restricted to no Force powers for the reasons I posted earlier. But such a scenario is silly and would require Shan to deviate from her normal routine of combining Force powers with her intense lightsaber attacks. What we do we know of Bastila's lightsaber talents and fighting prowess are clear enough:

- By the age of 19, Bastila had mastered at least one lightsaber form (a single blade stance), and possessed a proficiency in her personally-constructed double-bladed lightsaber, which is far more difficult to be adept at and takes much more skill to wield than a single blade.

- From the fact that she is the youngest Jedi to have ever mastered Battle Meditation to the point where she could turn the tide of a galactic war, and the rate at which she gained adroitness in Sith spells under Darth Malak, the inference is that her learning aptitude is among the highest of her times. This would extend to her lightsaber training, explaining why she was able to became so skilled in multiple saber styles.

- According to the Wizards of the Coast article, Jedi Counseling 81, as a Jedi Sentinel, Bastila "strikes a balance between the Jedi consular (focusing on diplomacy and a mastery of the Force) and the Jedi guardian (focusing on physical abilities and mastery of the lightsaber)". So, her training regime has effectively been to work on both areas of combat.

- The first time we're shown Bastila's Strike Team in a canon cutscene, she is at the forefront, making mincemeat out of an upper tier Sith, presumably a master-level, as he was seen as a personal bodyguard of Revan:

YouTube video

- From both KOTOR and the official Databank, the Jedi Council - despite "[k]nowing how valuable [Bastila] was to the order" and wanting to keep her safe - still tasked her with being the leader of the Jedi Strike Team to take down the war experienced commander, immensly powerful, full-fledged Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Revan. This speaks volumes for her abilities insofar that it suggests her viewpoint, contrary to what you may believe, was true: that she was more powerful than all, but a handful of master-level Force users in her time. The Council would not send an "unexceptional" duelist with no powers other than Battle Meditation. Neither would Malak choose her to be his second-in-command out of thousands of bloodthirsty Sith purely based on BM, which he deemed ultimately unnecessary.

- Although her brashness and overconfidence could (and most likely would) end up being Bastila's undoing, her heroic spirit has never backed down from a physical fight - even if she is outmatched. She charged head-on and managed to stall against Darth Malak for a short amount of time, who at that point had surpassed Darth Revan in darkness [Knights of the Old Republic]. At the Temple of the Ancients on Rattaka, three-on-one: Revan, Jolee, and Juhani versus the corrupted Bastila, she was able to fend off and avoid capture, unharmed; only after doing an unalterable (and therefore canonical) move of a telekinetic wave that penetrated the defenses of and knocked down the trio of attackers.

- The campaigns waged against the Republic saw her as a Jedi Battle Commander, and "the quest for the Star Forge, which spanned worlds, kept Revan and Bastila working side-by-side, and thrust Bastila into difficult and challenging roles as a Jedi" [Star Wars Databank, Bastila Shan]. So, although we don't have the exact details of every encounter (we do definitively have some), it is certain that Shan has gained much experience, facing a range of Dark Jedi, troopers, mammalians, and all kinds of scum and villainy throughout the course of her Jedi career. We know she aided in the battle on the Leviathan that would kill Saul Karath. For the first Star Map, we know she helped to destroy the droids capable of killing an experienced Jedi Knight, trusted by the Jedi Council for the task.

- As a dark sider, she can "[focus her] anger and hatred [making her able to fly into a berserker rage, increasing her battle prowess]. Using the Force in this way can push the body's physical abilities beyond what it can normally handle." [Jedi Academy Training Manuel, Page 47]. Combined with her Battlemind ability, or Battle Influence, she can further "[augment] one's morale and fighting spirit", such as Mace Windu did with his Vaapad usage or "envision a specific reality and make it real with the Force".

- Finally, according to Champions of the Force Preview 6, "Bastila [is] clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus." Obviously, their skill sets differ and they are far from on an equal playing field (Dooku would crush her and did so to Kenobi), but she is stated to be in the league of the latter two, meaning - at the very least - she would be able to hold her own in some respect; against Obi-Wan in particular, as the case has been outlined here.

Now, where did you come up with the idea that "[W]e know...Bastila's saber prowess...wasn't exceptional"?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, given your playing KOTOR a million times, the impression that Bastila wasn't anything but a one-trick pony stemmed from what? I barely remember my playthroughs and Bastila, to me, seemed like the Jedi Order's Golden Girl - a padawan leading a Strike Force to capture the Dark Lord, being one of the key reasons for the Republic's survival against the Sith onslaught, amazing powers, an extraordinary Force and learning potential, oh, and the ability to perform a double-bladed lightsaber throw and actually catch it on return! [/B]

(con't...)