Durge Vs. Sion

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did you played as male or female? Sion will die in both cases. However, canonical path is female and in this playthrough, the main reason for his downfall is this:

After betraying her, Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)

It was made clear in KoTOR II that most Jedi went in to hiding when Sion and Nihilus began their Jedi purge. Now when he was on a Jedi hunting spree, he would have had to seek them out in places of their hiding rather than always waiting for them. And he would have had to travel to many places for his purpose.

This image does not depicts Korriban or Malachor V. It depicts an encounter of Sion with a Jedi in a different world.

His immortality certainly worked in all places or he would have perished easily in non-dark sided places (where he would be 'supposedly' vulnerable). His Jedi hunting spree would have ended rather easily.

Remember he also survived the explosion of Harbinger, a republic cruiser.

Or do you think that he was such an exceptional duelist that he never took a hit in supposedly vulnerable places?

vader killed plenty of jedi without taking a scratch. so did grievous.

Originally posted by ares834 Cool. Sure the Exile talks Sion out of living, but it doesn't change the fact that he was clearly weakening.

As he continued to pursue her, though, a new feeling towards her stirred in Sion, something beyond respect or admiration, and an emotion that he loathed.[2] He thought her beautiful,[1] and his hatred diminished with these emotions, threatening his grip on life.[2] (from Wookieepedia)

His hatred (one of factors behind his immortality) was declining due to a strange 'emotional reaction' he felt from Exile. No other opponent could stir up such a feeling in him. This strange influence on his mind became his undoing.

And an official source elaborates on this in clear terms:

One Jedi especially gets underneath Sion's decrepit skin. The Jedi Exile proves remarkably resilient. Sion feels an alien feeling bud within him: not respect for female jedi, not admiration, but an emotion quite intolerable. It causes his intense hatred to flag, threatening his tenuous hold on life, so Sion decides to destroy the woman responsible for this weakness. However, in their final confrontation, the Jedi Exile convinces the Dark Lord to release himself from his enslaving hatred. Rage and life flee Sion simultaneously, his undead body finally yielding to absolute necrosis. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)

This weakness ultimately facilitated him to let go his hatred.

Now prove any of these places he died at were not dark side nexuses. Afterall, he killed Lonna Vash on Korriban.

The image of one of his encounters that I presented neither depicts Korriban, Lehon, or Malachor V (3 most visited dark worlds in KoTOR series). It depicts a developed world, though not identified.

Allright. Now prove he "died" while killing "Qui-Gon" and prove this is not a dark side nexus...

Sion was still a very skilled duelist, not to mention he had assassins who could help him in battle. So no I don't think it means his Jedi hunting spree would have ended easily.

He might be a skilled duelist but he was struck down several times, only to get up and defeat the opponents in the next round.

This ship likely escaped as the Republic found no traces of it while searching for evidence.

Therefore, that ship was destroyed and no traces were found.

One does not need to be exeptional to not die, merly better than his opponent. Not to mention he had plenty of Sith Assassins to back him up.

Originally posted by truejedi vader killed plenty of jedi without taking a scratch. so did grievous.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He did not got weakened by just the talk. You keep ignoring this part:

As he continued to pursue her, though, a new feeling towards her stirred in Sion, something beyond respect or admiration, and an emotion that he loathed.[2] He thought her beautiful,[1] [b]and his hatred diminished with these emotions, threatening his grip on life.[2] (from Wookieepedia)

This weakness ultimately facilitated him to let go his hatred.

You prove that he encountered all of the Jedi on Korriban or Malachor V. Since, he was on a Jedi hunting spree, it wasn't necessary that he met all of his enemies on these two planets. What you see in KoTOR II is not all of it.

The image of one of his encounters that I presented neither depicts Korriban, Lehon, or Malachor V (3 most visited dark worlds in KoTOR series). It depicts a developed world, though not identified.

What part of this statement - Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide) - you could not understand?

Now you suddenly believe that Sion was a very skilled duelist? 🙄

He might be a skilled duelist but he was struck down several times, only to get up and defeat the opponents in the next round.

In the firefight, a stray shot from one of the vessels impacted one of the asteroids, which set off a chain reaction of volatile chemicals. The Peragus asteroid field exploded, and the Harbinger was caught in the midst of it, though Sion survived. (from Wookieepedia)
Therefore, that ship was destroyed and no traces were found.

Regardless, prove the Harbinger was destroyed. Afterall it was your claim.

Tell that to Traya. In addition, a single statement quoted above from Campaign Guide destroys your arguments. Just give up.

Originally posted by ares834
.

Hm, I must have missed it.

Did he actually give you the quote? Or did he use Wookipedia as a source again?

Ah he used some shitty quotes that proved nothing important, simply that Sion died occasionally. However, he did use wookiepedia as a source...

geez.. we all know sion died occasionally..

We also know he got talked into losing in the only instance we know of where someone tried...

Durge is another plot device though... .these two really suit each other.

Agreed. Immortal characters are boring and stupid, especially when they are in SW.

Originally posted by ares834 Yes, I have already said that is "cool". Really what the **** are you saying here. I agreed with you. The Exile talked him into dying due to his love fore her, but that doesn't change the fact that he was weakening throughout the fight.

He was weakening throughout the fight due to his gradually diminishing hatred for Exile until he just decided to give up. At least, this is what canonical sources are implying.

Yeah cool. Doesn't change the fact that he was on his hands and knees after the Exile killed him several times.

It was that emotional reaction on the works.

You made the claim. Regardless, I have evidence it is with the dark power of Malachor V that allowed him to come back to life.

Cool. So its a pointless picture that helps your arguments how? There simply is no proof anywhere that he "died" there.

As a marauder for the Sith Empire during the Great Sith War, Sion flings himself at the Jedi, seeking death, but instead, he finds the opposite. Regularly surviving the frontline pandemonium, Sion acquires a pain tolerance that convinces him of his immortality. Inevitably, probablity has its day and Sion is struck down. Yet death does not comes to Darth Sion, and each centimeter of his failing body comes alive with anguish, multiplying that infinitely distant point of pain one thousandfold until his brain threatens to collapse. Improbably, Sion gets up. And as he locks eyes with his attacker, Sion lets all of his anger for being killed - all the hatred clotting his heart - explode. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)

Sion was ultimately struck down in a duel and he was dead. However, he managed to resurrect himself. His flesh was in a decomposing state since than as we see in KoTOR II.

The part where is says Sion could resuerect himself anywhere... Really once again I have evidence that says Malachor V's power is what allowed himself to reserect himself numerous times. In fact, Sion himself is the one who says this.

Otherwise, he would have died on Harbinger on any other places he visisted besides Malachor V.

Why is that wrong? He is still a Sith Lord, his combat skills have to be somewhat impressive. Afterall from your favorite source, "As a marauder for the Sith Empire during the Great Sith War, Sion flings himself at the Jedi, seeking death, but instead, he finds the opposite. Regularly surviving the frontline pandemonium, Sion acquires a pain tolerance that convinces him of his immortality."

Yeah, but where was he killed?

Good source... Once again, no evidence was found that the Harbinger was ever there. If it did get caught in the explosion shrapnel and pieces of the ship should have been found, also the Harbinger was not shown to be destroyed and they were right at the edge of the aestroid field. A simply radnom jump to hypercpace could have got them outof there, which really should have been rather easy.

Regardless, prove the Harbinger was destroyed. Afterall it was your claim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vLC4ukGzOQ

That ship got caught up in those explosions.

Hm, I must have missed it.

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide, Page 159)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The attitude of some people here is the problem. I apologize, If I did not understood your intentions.

He was weakening throughout the fight due to his gradually diminishing hatred for Exile until he just decided to give up. At least, this is what canonical sources are implying.

And the reason of his demise was not physical dominance of his opponent and neither some random talking. Sion himself told Exile this: I can die a hundred times, Exile, and still will I rise, as powerful as before.

And I provided a counter-argument already.

Let us focus again on the presented information:

As a marauder for the Sith Empire during the Great Sith War, Sion flings himself at the Jedi, seeking death, but instead, he finds the opposite. Regularly surviving the frontline pandemonium, Sion acquires a pain tolerance that convinces him of his immortality. Inevitably, probablity has its day and Sion is struck down. Yet death does not comes to Darth Sion, and each centimeter of his failing body comes alive with anguish, multiplying that infinitely distant point of pain one thousandfold until his brain threatens to collapse. Improbably, Sion gets up. And as he locks eyes with his attacker, Sion lets all of his anger for being killed - all the hatred clotting his heart - explode. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)

Sion was ultimately struck down in a duel and he was dead. However, he managed to resurrect himself. His flesh was in a decomposing state since than as we see in KoTOR II.

Dark places would have fueled his power. However, Kriea reminds that he was invincible also on the Korriban. So Malachor V's power is not the real reason behind his immortality. It was his own ability.

Otherwise, he would have died on Harbinger on any other places he visisted besides Malachor V.

You prove that Harbinger was not destroyed, since you originally claimed that it might have survived the disaster of peragus.

Remember he also survived the explosion of Harbinger, a republic cruiser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vLC4ukGzOQ

That ship got caught up in those explosions.

So yeah, surviving that explosion wouldn't be a strecth at all. Granted, I never made the claim. I simply said that there were no remanants of the ship suggesting that it escaped.

How many times should I repeat it?

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide, Page 159)

Originally posted by ares834 Not really. They say Sion's love for the Exile forces him to let go of his life, not that it slowly weakens him.

Notice how he says this while on his hands and knees. It is possible he could have returned to life hundreds of times, but it doesn't change the fact that he was weakening.

I can die a hundred times, Exile, and still will I rise, as powerful as before.

Can you read properly or not? He wasn't tired or something. He just decided to give up. Whether he did that on his knees or not, it matters not. The real reason behind his demise have already been provided. Seriously, this argument needs no further exploration.

No you haven't. I asked for proof that Sion has died on worlds that were not dark side nexuses. You then posted a quote saying that Sion died many times during the purge. That does not mean he died on a place that was not a dark side nexus, mearly that he died several times.

Yes this did happen. But where was it? Prove that it was on a place other than a dark side nexus.

Indeed. And guess what? Korriban is also a world full of powerful dark energies!

Not if he wasn't killed at any of these other places or of they weren't dark side nexuses.

No, I didn't bring it up... You did saying this:

Originally posted by ares834 This ship likely escaped as the Republic found no traces of it while searching for evidence.

Aren't you making a claim here? Prove it that Harbinger survived.

And Republic Cruisers have massive sheilds capable of easily absorbing turbolaser fire, which according to some numbers can have far more firepower than a nuke. And from BHW, "The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength."

So yeah, surviving that explosion wouldn't be a strecth at all. Granted, I never made the claim. I simply said that there were no remanants of the ship suggesting that it escaped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHazk2pWb_Q

See the opening comments in this video. Those explosions killed a planet. And Harbinger evidently got caught up in those explosions. We know that Sion survived but we do not have any evidence suggesting that Harbinger made it through. The investigation of that site yielded nothing. So you are just making an assumption and a bad one.

And how many times should I repeat it? Prove that any of these places he "died" at aren't dark side nexuses.

One thing about the "Rise again as powerful as before" quote. It isn't necessarily canon. Exile can easily skip all of that dialogue and continue to fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sion's love is the real reason than?

Have a re-look at his statement:

I can die a hundred times, Exile, and still will I rise, [b]as powerful as before.

Can you read properly or not? He wasn't tired or something. He just decided to give up. Whether he did that on his knees or not, it matters not. The real reason behind his demise have already been provided. Seriously, this argument needs no further exploration.

He ventured out of those dark side places, right? He came to Harbinger (an example)? Remember that he was on a Jedi hunting spree. It means that it wasn't necessary that Jedi came after him. He would have gone after them too. Stop being delusional and try to understand my point.

Thank you for reminding me but I know this. Your original assertion that Malachor V gave Sion his immortality is bullshit.

On places such as Malachor V he is nearly immortal due to the massive amount of dark energies

Prove that his immortality only works on dark side places. KoTOR II is just one source upon which you are relying. The KoTOR Campaign Guide makes it clear that he engaged in a Jedi hunting spree and his base of operations were surely not limited to just Malachor V and Korriban. He did actually ventured out from these places (Harbinger and an unknown developed world being two known examples). And during his Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. You prove it to me that he always lurked in dark places during the Jedi Purge.

Wht should I? Unlike you I have proof, cold hard proof. You have nothing but speculation. Untill you can prove that he can actually die and come back to life at places that are not dark side nexuses this argument is over.

So you never claimed that Harbinger might have escaped and survived the incident at Paragus? Then whose comment is this:

Aren't you making a claim here? Prove it that Harbinger survived.

Those explosions wiped out Paragus (a planet) and you are telling me that a Republic Cruiser would have survived that incident?

You have no clue of what you are talking about here. Are you drunk or something?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHazk2pWb_Q

See the opening comments in this video. Those explosions killed a planet. And Harbinger evidently got caught up in those explosions. We know that Sion survived but we do not have any evidence suggesting that Harbinger made it through. The investigation of that site yielded nothing. So you are just making an assumption and a bad one.

You prove the negative.

Okay Legend, you're obviously speculating on almost everything. Lets summarize:

First, when Ares asked you repeatedly if Sion died on any other planet not filled with Dark Side energies like Korriban or Malachor 5, you said that he must have died on a planet not filled with Dark Side energies because he died several times while hunting. You can't prove this, hence speculation.

EDIT: you keep bringing up that quote about him dying many times. How many times is many? One might say that because dying is a terrible thing that many can be as much as 3-4 times. So it's pretty reasonable to assume that he just died on dark side filled planets, unless you can prove the opposite, it's like I said, speculation.

Secondly, you initially claimed that the Harbinger got destroyed so that Sion had to swim around in space to the next spaceport or another nearby space ship, while it is more likely that the Harbinger survived like the Ebon Hawk. You can't prove this, hence speculation.

Thirdly, you gave a picture of Sion standing above a dead Jedi, prove that he died during that duel. If you can't prove this, it's speculation.

Lastly, we actually see Sion get weakened during the fight. He can brag as much as he can about being as powerful as before, but bragging is common and not proof. I can give you many examples of characters overpowering themselves with words, especially Dark siders.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Okay Legend, you're obviously speculating on almost everything. Lets summarize:

First, when Ares asked you repeatedly if Sion died on any other planet not filled with Dark Side energies like Korriban or Malachor 5, you said that he must have died on a planet not filled with Dark Side energies because he died several times while hunting. You can't prove this, hence speculation.

EDIT: you keep bringing up that quote about him dying many times. How many times is many? One might say that because dying is a terrible thing that many can be as much as 3-4 times. So it's pretty reasonable to assume that he just died on dark side filled planets, unless you can prove the opposite, it's like I said, speculation.

Let's use a little common sense here.

He was out hunting Jedi. Why the heck would Jedi be on dark side-heavy planets? They'd stand out like a beacon.

So, beg your pardon but no. Common sense dictates that it is not reasonable to assume he only died on dark side filled planets since that isn't where Jedi would be found. Just how many planets like that exist anyway? I'd wager a pretty small percentage out of the billions of planets in the galaxy. It'd be pretty darn convienient to only die on worlds that are full of dark power.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Thirdly, you gave a picture of Sion standing above a dead Jedi, prove that he died during that duel. If you can't prove this, it's speculation.

Missing the point here. The point is that he travelled to places that weren't dark side-heavy. If he was travelling to non-dark side-heavy places, again common sense indicates that he'd have probably 'died' there too.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Lastly, we actually see Sion get weakened during the fight.

You do realise, don't you, that he was weakened because of his feelings for the Exile? Had it been someone else he wouldn't have weakened.

Seems to me LeGenD is the only one thinking sensibly.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Let's use a little common sense here.

He was out hunting Jedi. Why the heck would Jedi be on dark side-heavy planets? They'd stand out like a beacon.

So, beg your pardon but no. Common sense dictates that it is not reasonable to assume he only died on dark side filled planets since that isn't where Jedi would be found. Just how many planets like that exist anyway? I'd wager a pretty small percentage out of the billions of planets in the galaxy. It'd be pretty darn convienient to only die on worlds that are full of dark power.

Does common sense equal proof, fact or canon to you? If yes, then you're definitely in the wrong place. We don't work with assumptions unless they're absolutely bullet proof, which it isn't in this situation.

Missing the point here. The point is that he travelled to places that weren't dark side-heavy. If he was travelling to non-dark side-heavy places, again common sense indicates that he'd have probably 'died' there too.

Why would he die there? Does common sense also include dying a lot? We've seen Sith hunting Jedi and never dying. It's very probable that N. took out the strongest Jedi by killing the Jedi gathering on Katar. So unless Sion is completely incompetent, it is not logical to assume that he constantly died.

Seems to me LeGenD is the only one thinking sensibly.

Well, at least you made me laugh, I guess that stands for something.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Does common sense equal proof, fact or canon to you?

You are correct Slash, common sense does not always equal proof or fact, however it does help draw a logical conclusion when based upon a solid foundation.

S_W_LeGen and chilled monkey conculsions are based upon there knowledge of Jedi and the personality traits of Sion. Which I feel are valid points.

What is your interpretation of this statement:
After betraying her, Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)?

you!

Oh my god! It's three of them!!!

Originally posted by Kotor3
You are correct Slash, common sense does not always equal proof or fact, however it does help draw a logical conclusion when based upon a solid foundation.

S_W_LeGen and chilled monkey conculsions are based upon there knowledge of Jedi and the personality traits of Sion. Which I feel are valid points.

What is your interpretation of this statement:
After betraying her, Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree, "dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives. (from KoTOR Campaign Guide)?

Vague is a word that comes to mind. Not conclusive is another interpretation.

What is your interpretation of these statements:

Originally posted by ares834

Exile: I will not run from that corpse.
Kreia: There will be another time. Not now, not here, while Korriban runs through him

and later on on Malachor V.

[b]Sion: As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I can not be killed.

After being told he is weakening.
Sion: I... I still have the power to stop you. The Force runs strong through the screaming canyons of Malachor.
[/B]