Most over played strengths

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Right. Because the Silver Surfer is more like Wolverine and therefore it is more reasonable to ignore [b](i) the reasonability of conflating the concept of comic book energy blasts/rays/lasers with the concept of electromagnetic radiation (which is pretty much the concept of energy), (ii) the recurring pattern of energy blasts/rays/lasers traveling or exceeding light speed on-panel, and (iii) your transparent use of a circular argument fallacy.

Well, your confidence in your conclusions are clearly demonstrated by your dismissive attitude and ease with labeling any notions of the contrary as the "stupidest thing in months." Ergo, I presume that you must have scoress of pieces of on-panel evidence that completely and utterly outweigh (a) all the times random energy blasts are actually quantified as light speed or light speed+, (b) the concept of thinking that energy blasts/rays/lasers are analogous to the concept of electromagnetic radiation...

... which especially have nothing to do with (c) a case of aim-dodging or aim-blocking. Can you post these scores of pieces of on-panel evidence? Actually... why am I selling you short? You must have hundreds. [/B]

You don't seem to understand that it's not my job to prove anything wrong to the countrary - when your stance itself is utter superficial generalization that is based on a few cherry picked examples that you want to apply across the whole line of showings so that any time any character has reacted in any way to an energy blast after it's fired it means he has reacted to something incoming at him at speeds comparable to radiation for the electromagnetic spectrum at least - if not higher.

And that is simply too stupid to put into words. Nothing is 'safe' or 'resonable' to assume - considering the plethora of energy variations and portrayals of energy blasts that the comics have presented - only in a simplistic line of thinking could you possibly rationalize 'a few = all'.

This is not a contest of how many energy blasts going at/above lightspeed you can show me, and how many of people reacting to one after they're fired I can show you - because neither you nor I can generalize it as "since I've showed more, it obviously means that I can generalize it as every blast having the same speed properties as the examples I've brought up".

The fact that you would even ask that is unfathomably idiotic logic. If it weren't for the structure of your post, I'd say I was talking to quanchi who smoked pot and figured he'd post on KMC.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Nothing is 'safe' or 'resonable' to assume - considering the plethora of energy variations and portrayals of energy blasts that the comics have presented - only in a simplistic line of thinking could you possibly rationalize 'a few = all'.

This is not a contest of how many energy blasts going at/above lightspeed you can show me, and how many of people reacting to one after they're fired I can show you - because neither you nor I can generalize it as "since I've showed more, it obviously means that I can generalize it as every blast having the same speed properties as the examples I've brought up".

plus the distance in between both combatants kinda negates whatever speed it was, even returning a tennis ball serve from a machine at that distance is nothing to sneeze at.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You don't seem to understand that it's not my job to prove anything wrong to the countrary - when your stance itself is utter superficial generalization that is based on a few cherry picked examples that you want to apply across the whole line of showings so that any time any character has reacted in any way to an energy blast after it's fired it means he has reacted to something incoming at him at speeds comparable to radiation for the electromagnetic spectrum at least - if not higher.

And that is simply too stupid to put into words.

And apparently it is so apparently stupid that you can't just easily prove the contrary with words.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Nothing is 'safe' or 'resonable' to assume - considering the plethora of energy variations and portrayals of energy blasts that the comics have presented - only in a simplistic line of thinking could you possibly rationalize 'a few = all'.

Originally posted by Philosophía
This is not a contest of how many energy blasts going at/above lightspeed you can show me, and how many of people reacting to one after they're fired I can show you - because neither you nor I can generalize it as "since I've showed more, it obviously means that I can generalize it as every blast having the same speed properties as the examples I've brought up".

Originally posted by Philosophía
That's unfathomably stupid. If it weren't for the structure of your post, I'd say I was talking to quanchi who smoked pot and figured he'd post on KMC.

Two words: cheetah speed. Nuff said, amirite?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
this is kinda true, but at the range of the shot (scan is above), the blast doesn't really give any sort of impression of anything slower than say a havok/cyclops/insert beam user blast other than the fact that it was intercepted.

plus the distance in between both combatants kinda negates whatever speed it was, even returning a tennis ball serve from a machine at that distance is nothing to sneeze at.

Or Vulcan fast enough to bend Cyclops' attack to his whim:
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb312/RespectThread/Vulcan/fights/fight%201/3.jpg
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb312/RespectThread/Vulcan/fights/fight%201/4.jpg

Or maybe an example with another vision user would be good. One that will give namorsubby an orgasm:

Deathstroke actually percieves and reacts at heat vision coming twoards him. I'm probably going to put that in the respect thread.

These were just ones I randomly remembered.

The catch? Both of these attacks have much more validity of being argued for as lightspeed than the attack with Thanos - since one of them has even been stated as lightspeed while the other one is part of the electromagnetic spectrum - which speaks lengths of the consistency within comics when it comes to energy attacks.

But these discussion has even deviated from the Thanos/Maker example and moved into the abyss of ignorance - he actually thinks it's resonable to make a generalization like that and is facetious enough to actually ask me to prove that's not the case. Yeah, that's not going to work. In fact, I have to say this whole discussion won't have a happy ending and will end when one of us gets a warning. In conclusion, cheetah speed ODG, sure.

^ Think about what you're doing. Your original premise was that unless an energy blast is quantified on-panel as going at light speed, then it's absolutely no evidence that the energy blast is actually traveling at light speed and therefore, reactions to them aren't proof of FTL reflexes:

Originally posted by Philosophía
Unless a specific reference for how fast the energy blast goes is given, swatting/blocking etc. those blasts is inconsequential to the character's actual combat superspeed.

I know this must be hard for the fans, especially for those of characters who have close to none speed feats other than that (like Thanos fans, you can go eat a dick Bran) but it's quite idiotic to judge it otherwise.

But somehow... the idea that "energy blasts travel at light speed" is debunked by a scene of clear PIS that clearly involves a light speed attack? Light speed... by YOUR standards?

You... you didn't think this through, did you? Because what you just did is posted PIS to debunk your own standard. In other words, even when an energy blast has already been quantified as going at light speed, it's still not a light speed attack because street characters react to them in moments of sheer PIS. Congratulations.

The argument for "cheetah speed" continues...

P.S. Now if you actually conceded that those scenes were PIS, and no evidence of anything, you could bridge the gap in logic that you just poked in your OWN lofty standard, let alone mine. PIS being the concept I've already recognized and brought up to you before. How convenient.

Originally posted by Philosophía

Deathstroke actually percieves and reacts at heat vision coming twoards him. I'm probably going to put that in the respect thread.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I'm just futher destroying your non-existent argument by showing that there's no consistency even between the scenes involving attacks that are demonstrably lightspeed - and you're trying to generalize it by shoving every energy blast in a specific frame of speed, based on examples of different energy-based attacks, ignoring the vast variations of energy within the comics universe.

The fact that I'm even explaining this is just.. Like I said, there's a reason I'm closing down this discussion. I don't wanna get banned.

Originally posted by Philosophía
I posted the examples to prove the consistency of energy blasts' portrayal within comics - even of those who are legitimately lightspeed - and thus the nonsensical act of generalizing every energy blast, even those who are not specifically shown/stated to be lightspeed like the ones above who themselves are portrayed inconsitently.

I'm just futher destroying your non-existent argument by showing that there's no consistency even between the scenes involving attacks that are demonstrably lightspeed - and you're trying to generalize it by shoving every energy blast in a specific frame of speed, based on examples of different energy-based attacks, ignoring the vast variations of energy within the comics universe.

The fact that I'm even explaining this is just.. Like I said, there's a reason I'm closing down this discussion. I don't wanna get banned.

... that's exactly what you're not supposed to do with two, let alone one, instance of PIS.

PIS doesn't prove anything. It's PIS for a reason. And using PIS to disprove Green Lantern energy being quantified as light speed, or Iron Man's repulsor rays being quantified as light speed, or Cyclops' optic blasts being light speed or Superman's heat vision being light speed or similar energy-based attacks from going/exceeding light speed is a farce that doesn't require argumentation to rebut. It's on its face, an utter farce.

How you twisted yourself up so much to use PIS to disprove the reliability of your own standard to cast doubt into my standard is a mystery I don't even pretend to fathom. What exactly was that intended to be? A strategy of mutually self-assured destruction? And PIS moments were supposed to be the inarguably reliable aces-up-your-sleeve that made it idiotic to think otherwise than you on this issue?

You don't understand - those weren't counter arguments because as I said the first time you tried to go "show me scans of people dodging energy blasts after they're fired who have no business doing it and I'll show you scans of energy blasts being quantified at lightspeed or above" - you simply have no argument to start with, and going 'your scan-my scan' doesn't prove anything and it's an asinine way to continue the discussion.

Your wishful comic-wide energy blast generalization based on specific examples - and even more, you asking me to give counter-examples when you had no valid ground to start with were quite astounding. I don't need to 'throw the concept in doubt' because there's no concept to throw.

I'm going to watch some tennis now. And I'm not going to pursue the discussion anymore. Like I said, if it makes you feel fulfilled, think that my argument is based on 'cheetah speed'.

ODG cracks me up sometimes.

By the way Philo are you claiming that unless it's stated to be traveling at FTL speeds we can never assume it was? Even though we know, as ODG explained, that it wouldn't be way off to assume it very could be knowing what we do about what makes up an energy blast. So for you, it has to be specifically stated to be traveling as such? ODG isn't saying ALL blast all just because they are energy blasts... he's saying because fo their make up it isn't a bad line of thinking it very well could be moving at the light speed.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You don't understand - those weren't counter arguments because as I said the first time you tried to go "show me scans of people dodging energy blasts after they're fired who have no business doing it and I'll show you scans of energy blasts being quantified at lightspeed or above" - you simply have no argument to start with, and going 'your scan-my scan' doesn't prove anything and it's an asinine way to continue the discussion.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Your wishful comic-wide energy blast generalization based on specific examples - and even more, you asking me to give counter-examples when you had no valid ground to start with were quite astounding. I don't need to 'throw the concept in doubt' because there's no concept to throw.

I'm going to watch some tennis now. And I'm not going to pursue the discussion anymore. Like I said, if it makes you feel fulfilled, think that my argument is based on 'cheetah speed'.

And on another note, do you believe that it's reasonable to ignore key words like "ray" or "beam" or "laser," which inherently associate/connect to the concept of light? Did you think the entirety of comics constantly uses this terminology as a complete accident? Or, looking at it from a different angle, have you seen or do you imagine this exchange occurring in a comic:

Captain Mar-Vell: "You may be more powerful! But my photonic blasts go at the speed of light!!! And-because-your-energy-blasts-aren't-specifically-contained-within-the-known-E-M-spectrum-so-accordingly-I-shall-assume-that-they-are-much-slower-than-light... ergo... I have the speed advantage, Titan!"

Thanos: "CURSES!!!111"

In the end, you did not convince me that "energy-blasts-can-generally-be-assumed-to-travel-light-speed" as a concept is unreasonable. Nor did you convince me that the idea is the "stupidest thing in months." In fact, that's exactly the idea that comics generally portray. But I understand you're fine resting your laurels on three instances of PIS. And if relying on PIS justifies your dismissive attitude towards contrary arguments or proof, that's your cup of tea.

"Energy blasts are made of cheetahs." <--- Stupidest thing I've heard in months. And I'm ready to argue that with proof. Might be a slight change of pace.

Cyclops' blasts don't move at light speed. That was a one or two off, inconsistent panel.

I'm pretty sure Starfire's star bolts are also sub-luminal.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Cyclops' blasts don't move at light speed. That was a one or two off, inconsistent panel.

... over speculative doubt, which so far... haven't been supported in this discussion by anything other than PIS. I find the plain presentation of the above more reliable as a personal matter.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm going to go with these two examples off the top of my head along with my reading of his appearances...

... over speculative doubt, which so far... haven't been supported in this discussion by anything other than PIS. I find the plain presentation of the above more reliable as a personal matter.

the top one was one of the examples. his blasts shouldn't even bend like that.

the second isn't much in the way of evidence, imo.

plus, there are dozens of examples of his blasts being dodged that contradict those scans.

I have read a little Cyclops too, y'know.

Originally posted by -Pr-
the top one was one of the examples. his blasts shouldn't even bend like that.

the second isn't much in the way of evidence, imo.

plus, there are dozens of examples of his blasts being dodged that contradict those scans.

I have read a little Cyclops too, y'know.

Clearly.

People dodge light speed attacks a lot. People miss with light speed attacks a lot. Cyclops being a poontang and missing =/= his optic blasts not going light speed.

I am very aware of that. I am also very aware of your past arguments over Cyclops' missing. I agree with the counter-arguments already presented. Particularly when I believe the sheer speed of Cyclops' optic blast is consistently characterized as a boon and not an exploitable vulnerability.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Apparently when they're guided by a forcefield, they do.

Clearly.

People dodge light speed attacks a lot. People miss with light speed attacks a lot. Cyclops being a poontang and missing =/= his optic blasts not going light speed.

I am very aware of that. I am also very aware of your past arguments over Cyclops' missing. I agree with the counter-arguments already presented. Particularly when I believe the sheer speed of Cyclops' optic blast is consistently characterized as a boon and not an exploitable vulnerability.

which is retarded.

I never said it was the same thing. What i said it points to it not being light speed. He's been stated as having crazy accuracy, and has always had decent reflexes. Yet he misses more often than he should.

in what way is it a boon?

Originally posted by -Pr-
which is retarded.

I never said it was the same thing. What i said it points to it not being light speed. He's been stated as having crazy accuracy, and has always had decent reflexes. Yet he misses more often than he should.

in what way is it a boon?

I would rather argue that Cyclops' aim isn't infallible, nor the servos in his visor instantaneous, and his usual extreme accuracy is evidence of the optic blasts' sheer speed, not evidence against it.

He can blast people who are very far away nigh instantaneously, he can let his blasts bounce around in a sustained, yet still instantaneous, ricochet effect and still hit his target, he has beaten speedsters with his optic blasts, he has forced speedsters to exploit Cyclops' other vulnerabilities to avoid his blasts' sheer speed, etc.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You shoot a beam of light into a black flexible curving rubber tube. Does light travel through it and come out at the other end of it? Yes. To the naked eye, would it appear that the light is bending and curving around? Yes. Invisible Woman's strong forcefields being invisible and showing the redirection is consistent with this.

I would rather argue that Cyclops' aim isn't infallible, nor the servos in his visor instantaneous, and his usual extreme accuracy is evidence of the optic blasts' sheer speed, not evidence against it.

He can blast people who are very far away nigh instantaneously, he can let his blasts bounce around in a sustained, yet still instantaneous, ricochet effect and still hit his target, he has beaten speedsters with his optic blasts, he has forced speedsters to exploit Cyclops' other vulnerabilities to avoid his blasts' sheer speed, etc.

Except Cyclops' beams aren't like normal light, and should bounce rather than bend.

How? You're actually saying that it's his speed as much as if not more than his accuracy that makes him so dangerous?

Yes, and I would say that his aim has as much influence in that as any speed his blasts might do.

One thing i'd say, though (all other arguments aside):

How would you explain a blast like this?

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Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because of cheetahs. Energy blasts are more like cheetahs. I understand you now.

No. That means that many energy blasts have been quantified as going at the speed of light or exceeding the speed of light. Ergo, there's a recurring pattern here that when energy blasts/rays/lasers are quantified on-panel, it's at or above the speed of light, or more appropriately, the speed of electromagnetic radiation. Which is what we humble "common knowledgers" automatically think of when we think of energy. Accordingly, it's reasonable to assume that energy blasts/rays/lasers are moving at the speed of light. That's what I suggested.

And energy blasts being made of cheetahs is one of the smartest things uttered in months. I am proud to have been influenced by your prodigious intelligence.