Most over played strengths

Originally posted by Philosophía
Those weren't counter arguments because they weren't meant to be counter-arguments, since the validity of your own stance is non-existent, thus no need to counter it. I thought I explained this to you already?

No it's not, though I did have fun reading your well-structured yet ultimately illogical reasoning.

Posturing like this is some new-fangled rationalization that just came up in this thread is stupid.

Originally posted by Philosophía
And this is where you fail. Again.

You presume that somebody has to prove anything. You presume that just because some sources of energy have been shown to be at/above lightspeed then it means all of them are unless I show examples to prove the contrary. Even a kid from kindergarden would say 'That's silly'. I don't need to show you anything, because your starting point is inaccurate. No matter how much you desperatley want it to be (and you do, apparently - for obvious reasons) you can never - ever apply that idiotic line of thinking for every type of energy presented in comics - for the simple fact that it simply goes against logic, common sense and is just wishful thinking.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You can't prove your stance. Picking up isolated examples of energy like this:

And taking the leap twoards "yeah, that means it's safe to say everything is at least as fast as the energy from the electromagnetic spectrum" is a terrible way of trying to generalize things. And no matter how much you try to dress it up, it will never work.

I've said this so many times I find annoying typing it.

And no, an opponent doesn't have to stop mid-attack and explain that his energy blast is lightspeed or above - you desperatley trying to make it seem that my stance is somewhat the illogical one being cute though -- cute as in 'look at that poor puppy trying to climb onto the bed and failing miserably every time' - but there has to be a precedent for that form of energy being lightspeed, either portrayal or statement wise. You can't just go on assuming that random energy X is lightspeed because Superman's heat vision or Cyclops' beams are, for f[i]uck's sake[/i].

I understand you cannot countenance projecting the one consistent property of energy as we know it, i.e., light speed... onto beams/rays/lasers made of energy in a comic. But don't act like I am operating from a deficiency of on-panel evidence. I understand you're committed to this "cheetah speed" farce. But frankly, ignoring the obvious pattern presented to you in comics is asinine. Acting like the shoe's on the other foot here is you lashing out irrationally. I don't even have anything to argue against here... just your rambling insistence that I don't have any proof that a wide variety of energies exhibit/surpass light speed.

Or that comic energy doesn't act like... energy. It apparently acts like cheetahs. Right.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Ah, here it is:

Projecting the butt-hurt for your lack of arguments when it comes to your beloved characters like Thor, and saying I'm frustrated because I don't accept what has to be one of the most memorable idiotic things said on this forum? That's amazingly great. Double lulz for the specific examples you just used, after checking the respect thread:

Keep pusing those agendas ODG.

Sorry, but repulsor rays travel at light speed. It's apparent you didn't think this through as I don't know why you'd pick that scan in particular. Pretending that I'm the only one whose ever used energy blasts as a measure of superspeed and waving my respect thread as proof of that is deflection from your own transparent butt-hurt. I know its hurts teh butts. Try applying ointment. Or find some proof to argue with that isn't PIS.

In the meantime, I'll try looking at it from your point of view and figure out how comic energy beams/rays/lasers are less like energy and more like cheetahs.

Originally posted by Lunacyde
I was simply pointing out the flaw in the way your argument was presented. As for me I accept that comic physics will never make sense with real life physics and as such questions such as these are often hard to really answer. The best we can do I suppose in such a situation is to go with what the writer says on-panel whether it fully makes sense or not.

Originally posted by -Pr-
cyclops' energy isn't from our universe though. it doesn't necessarily follow all the basic rules of our universe, because such rules don't exist in his universe.

superman missing when his heat vision is a completely different energy to cyclops' is a false comparison imo.

i'm not trying to be rude, but it honestly feels like you're cherry picking statements that are actually the exception rather than the rule. which they are. the servos in his visor argument doesn't hold up either, as he's fought without his visor on more than one occasion.

Right. Because it's even a worse situation than with Cyclops who doesn't even have superspeed. Superman has eye beams powers, uncanny aim, AND combat superspeed. And he misses. You should be up in arms over that. You're not. I see disconnect here.

If the rate of fire isn't limited to the mechanical servos in his visor, I believe that would only lend credence to the idea that Cyclops' rate of fire once his servos are open is limited only by his mental will.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Action Comics 767.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm not telling you to outweigh my evidence. You've demonstrated that you already can't.

And you know you can't do that. Which is why you pour random examples of various types of energy exceeding lightspeed, hoping to choke the discussion into a 'there's so many of them - clearly all of them must be the same' when that is simply not the case. You can prove that Cyclops' visor beam speed is lightspeed? Good, use it next time a character bats it away. You can prove that Superman's heat vision is lightspeed? Good, use it next time somebody outruns. You can prove that GL blasts are faster than light? Good, use it next time somebody reacts to them. etc. etc. etc.

That's why I said on a case to case basis. It's a fairy simple concept. If there's a random energy blast being shot, it's not safe to say that it's going at least lightspeed. If there's an energy beam from a photon canon, then it's safe to do so. It's also quite satisfying that you brought up those other examples. Would you say that any cosmic energy projections travels at star-systems span within moments? Would you say all quantum energy blasts travel at the same frame of speed? Would you say any Green Lantern energy blasts travels at the same speed? A yes or no would suffice for either of those.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Definitely not projecting.

Energy bolts draw upon the cheetah force, a mystic force where cheetahs (and thus, by extension, energy bolts), reside. Cheetah mainlines the cheetah force and thus turns into a cheetah with energy-bolt speed, but if she didn't draw on as much she'd turn into an energy-bolt with cheetah speed.

That about sum it up?

Originally posted by Q99
Energy bolts draw upon the cheetah force, a mystic force where cheetahs (and thus, by extension, energy bolts), reside. Cheetah mainlines the cheetah force and thus turns into a cheetah with energy-bolt speed, but if she didn't draw on as much she'd turn into an energy-bolt with cheetah speed.

That about sum it up?

Yes, but where's the math that supports that theory? 😛

I think the underlying fallacy of the argument between ODG and Pr, Philosophia, and H1 lies in the unsupported assumption that comic writers and artists weave their material according to scientific laws.

ie. the example of Cyclops shooting multiple bursts neither proves nor disproves whether the blasts are going lightspeed for the simple fact that the artist or writer prob was not thinking: "hmmm....in this panel, scott is gonna shoot multiple blasts, but since his neck speed is of peak human yet his beam is going lightspeed, it would not be possible"

rather his thought was "gee, let's have Scott change up his blast and show his versatility...having multiple micro blasts rather than a single continuous ray would look KEWL"

my 2 cents.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Yes, but where's the math that supports that theory? 😛

Where J=Cheetah speed in a vacuum

H1a8 told me

Originally posted by Starscream M
I think the underlying fallacy of the argument between ODG and Pr, Philosophia, and H1 lies in the unsupported assumption that comic writers and artists weave their material according to scientific laws.

ie. the example of Cyclops shooting multiple bursts neither proves nor disproves whether the blasts are going lightspeed for the simple fact that the artist or writer prob was not thinking: "hmmm....in this panel, scott is gonna shoot multiple blasts, but since his neck speed is of peak human yet his beam is going lightspeed, it would not be possible"

rather his thought was "gee, let's have Scott change up his blast and show his versatility...having multiple micro blasts rather than a single continuous ray would look KEWL"

my 2 cents.

You actually thought that we didn't know that?

Originally posted by -Pr-
so either he has FTL movements and reflexes, or his blasts aren't lightspeed.

Originally posted by Starscream M
so then why this false duality?

it isn't false, it's a comics forum. we operate under the assumption that half the time the writers don't actually know what they're writing when it comes to science, and that their quantifying isn't going to be accurate.

it's a given.

Originally posted by -Pr-
it isn't false, it's a comics forum. we operate under the assumption that half the time the writers don't actually know what they're writing when it comes to science, and that their quantifying isn't going to be accurate.

it's a given.

just because cyke shoots multiple potshots...it doesn't mean either 1) he has FTL reflexes (which would have to be the case if you consider the potshots traveling at lightspeed) OR 2) his potshots are NOT traveling at lightspeed (as it would be impossible for his less than FTL reflexes to perform if his beams were lightspeed)

because there exists the third plausible option that comic writers aren't taking all factors into consideration when they create a panel

I don't think ODG is claiming that ALL energy blasts are going FTL speed. he is claiming that it doesn't ALWAYS have to be specifically stated on panel that is is for it to be reasonable possible that it did. If we know what the make up of such energy blasts are and we know that then means they go FTL. It's thus reasonable to assume it did go FTL even if it wasn't stated. Not always, but it's always more reasonable to assume it is that it wasn't the majority of the time based on the make up of the blasts.

Furthermore, Omega... so you don't consider the showing of Thanos against the Maker to be a good reaction speed feat. Even if don't believe it was FTL... You must assume that it would be traveling faster than a "cheetah" much faster and being so close increases the speed of the blast just on proximity alone. Thus he reacting to it.. is without a doubt a good reaction time feat

Originally posted by Starscream M
well thats my point

just because cyke shoots multiple potshots...it doesn't mean either 1) he has FTL reflexes (which would have to be the case if you consider the potshots traveling at lightspeed) OR 2) his potshots are NOT traveling at lightspeed (as it would be impossible for his less than FTL reflexes to perform if his beams were lightspeed)

because there exists the third plausible option that comic writers aren't taking all factors into consideration when they create a panel

we know they aren't taking all factors in to consideration.

logic still persists, though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
we know they aren't taking all factors in to consideration.

logic still persists, though.

I personally would agree that not all energy moves at lightspeed...based on some of the reasoning posed.

However, if you take the same reasoning, can we not then also say that in comics bullets don't actually move at bullet speed? as alot of streetlevelers have bullet dodging (sometimes even multiple bullets) feats that SHOULD be beyond even the reflexes of peak human.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I guess.

I personally would agree that not all energy moves at lightspeed...based on some of the reasoning posed.

However, if you take the same reasoning, can we not then also say that in comics bullets don't actually move at bullet speed? as alot of streetlevelers have bullet dodging (sometimes even multiple bullets) feats that SHOULD be beyond even the reflexes of peak human.

unless it's stated that bullets are actually slower than real bullets, then no.

besides, im sure most writers have seen a tv show or movie and have an idea of how fast bullets are, at least in the ballpark. most people aim dodge anyway iirc...

Originally posted by Starscream M
I guess.

I personally would agree that not all energy moves at lightspeed...based on some of the reasoning posed.

However, if you take the same reasoning, can we not then also say that in comics bullets don't actually move at bullet speed? as alot of streetlevelers have bullet dodging (sometimes even multiple bullets) feats that SHOULD be beyond even the reflexes of peak human.

Except bullets exist and energy weapons don't, its easier to assume ray weapons are not on physical definitions than bullets who are meant to depict real life bullets.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Furthermore, Omega... so you don't consider the showing of Thanos against the Maker to be a good reaction speed feat. Even if don't believe it was FTL... You must assume that it would be traveling faster than a "cheetah" much faster and being so close increases the speed of the blast just on proximity alone. Thus he reacting to it.. is without a doubt a good reaction time feat

All that can be determined from that scan is that his reflexes and speed are better than street level. That's about it.

It isn't nearly enough on its own to prove he could defeat a speedblitz by Superman. Not even close.

Originally posted by Philosophía
I laughed, because I have this funny image in my head of a kid going 'nananana' over and over again, not being able to grasp even the simplest of things. This isn't about me 'outweighting' your evidence. The burden is completly on you, I don't have to actually prove anything - you're the one who has to demonstrate that all types of energy within the comic universe behave the same or better said, according to you, their lower limit of speed is lightspeed.

I'm not going to prove a negative: There is no comic energy that doesn't move at light speed. And hiding behind a negative proof fallacy because you don't want to confront with proof this notion or the proof I've proferred isn't a winning strategy.

Originally posted by Philosophía
And you know you can't do that. Which is why you pour random examples of various types of energy exceeding lightspeed, hoping to choke the discussion into a 'there's so many of them - clearly all of them must be the same' when that is simply not the case. You can prove that Cyclops' visor beam speed is lightspeed? Good, use it next time a character bats it away. You can prove that Superman's heat vision is lightspeed? Good, use it next time somebody outruns. You can prove that GL blasts are faster than light? Good, use it next time somebody reacts to them. etc. etc. etc.

These aren't exceptions. Why would comic energy not behave like energy or behave far slower than energy? What exactly was your rationale for that? That it's wide and varied? I agree with that premise. And I've already shown you a dozen examples off the top of my head that prove that they may be wide and varied -- much the same way actual energy is -- but they still share at least light speeds -- much the same way actual energy does.

Originally posted by Philosophía
That's why I said on a case to case basis. It's a fairy simple concept. If there's a random energy blast being shot, it's not safe to say that it's going at least lightspeed. If there's an energy beam from a photon canon, then it's safe to do so. It's also quite satisfying that you brought up those other examples. Would you say that any cosmic energy projections travels at star-systems span within moments? Would you say all quantum energy blasts travel at the same frame of speed? Would you say any Green Lantern energy blasts travels at the same speed? A yes or no would suffice for either of those.

Of course not.

It's not a leap of faith.

It's not an agenda.

Comic energy behaves like energy. <--- This is so radical that it should be one of the last god damned thing in tarnation we should be assuming? Frankly, it makes more sense than the default energy beam/ray/laser speed = cheetah speed.

Originally posted by -Pr-
unless it's stated that bullets are actually slower than real bullets, then no.

I can name some instances of bullets being shown to be incredibly slow compared to how they should be.

Here you got him webbing in response to bullets (even if Spidey's fast enough, web should be way too slow).

Here's one of a guy talking in mid-bullet flight, though to be fair those are special ones that could be much slower (though at that speed their threat should be minimal).

Pick a slow-mo shot of bullets in flight and stuff happening in the background, and much of the time there's something that demonstrates the bullets are going way too slow.

besides, im sure most writers have seen a tv show or movie and have an idea of how fast bullets are, at least in the ballpark.

Stuff that does bullets in slow-mo tends to way underplay them in TV and Hollywood too.

Like in the Matrix 1 subway fight, with the speed Smith and Neo were moving, bullets should still cross frame in 1 frame easy and be effectively unseen. Ditto any other matrix fight with gunfire.