Originally posted by -Pr-
It depends. For example, we know that Superman fought Mongul in the Alan Moore issue, and we know that they fought because it's been referenced post crisis. To that end, we would use the actual fight as the basis for what happened.It really depends.
Feats that are specifically mentioned are obviously a different matter, but DC referencing old events rather than rewriting taking the time to rewrite the entire story just doesn't cut it IMO.
Think about it like this, we all know there's a running debate on whether or not Thanos the End is canon right? Well let's suppose for a second that there were no arguement because Marvel went out of there way to make it clear that while something similar to the End went down in the 616 universe went down as a whole the arc doesn't really apply to 616 Thanos. Now let's jump forward with Marvel maintaining the same policy on the arc for 10 or 15 years, if Thanos mentions that he fought Eternity and Infinity back when he had the HOTU does that mean that we should just assume that the fight went down exactly as was depicted in The End since that's all we have to go off of?
Originally posted by -Pr-
it wouldn't matter, because John Byrne Superman had some crazy feats as it was, and he only got stronger after that. If he had actually shattered it/damaged it, it would.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I didn't read the issue, so I can't say for certain, though i was talking about Post Crisis.
Originally posted by darthgooberIn a few of the current cases it actually references the issue numbers, such as when JLA and the Legion fought Mordru back in the 70's was referenced in a comic a bit ago, and it said the exact issue numbers. So it's not 'something like this' happened, these actual pre-crisis stories happened.
Why would we use the old version of the fight when damn near everything about about the DC universe(including Supes's overpower and history) was changed as of COIE? I mean every superhero has a truckload of off panel feats but we don't go looking for versions of them from alternate universes to fill in the gaps on how the off panel feat might have went down.Feats that are specifically mentioned are obviously a different matter, but DC referencing old events rather than rewriting taking the time to rewrite the entire story just doesn't cut it IMO.
Think about it like this, we all know there's a running debate on whether or not Thanos the End is canon right? Well let's suppose for a second that there were no arguement because Marvel went out of there way to make it clear that while something similar to the End went down in the 616 universe went down as a whole the arc doesn't really apply to 616 Thanos. Now let's jump forward with Marvel maintaining the same policy on the arc for 10 or 15 years, if Thanos mentions that he fought Eternity and Infinity back when he had the HOTU does that mean that we should just assume that the fight went down exactly as was depicted in The End since that's all we have to go off of?
Now pr, I'm pretty sure we both know that Byrne's Supes was nowhere near planet shattering strength, dimond or not. And Supes being upgraded during and after the 90's doesn't mean that past instances of Hyperbole and PIS from earlier years should now be considered valid. Thats be like pointing to Spidey beating Firelord as a valid feat if Marvel gives him the Uni Power again. Spidey being powerful enough to powerful enough to pull off the feat after an upgrade doesn't make his previous victory any less BS. And I know that's an extreme example, but I didn't want to spend a lot of time thinking of something on a smaller scale.
I gotta disagree then. I don't doubt that current Supes could destroy a planet, but Supes from 1990... no freakin way.
In the Mongul case, they put the Alan Moore Mongul story into a Superman"Giant Sized Special", which they did for a bunch of characters following Crisis.
It's actually the de-powering that didn't happen, rather than the stories -- Byrnes or the Pre-Crisis, they were just always that strong, give or take.
I can't recall the issue, but there was one that came out in say 1999 or so, and it referenced the Death of Superman and flashbacked to the fight, and those characters were being depicted as the current levels would have been, not what Superman was written like pre-death or in that story. So the power-scaling wasn't even a new concept by the time of the newer Crisis' of the 'depowered' material.
^ Taking your account with all full faith, that only proves that retcon scaling actually exists. And retcon scaling's nature is to make it more consistent with present portrayals. This only further proves darthgoober's point. And trying to project the highest levels of ability is transparent wishfulness.
And for whatever reason, people continue to be too polite to point out that even right before the Crisis, powers were scaled back. HARD. Anybody who has read DC comics right before the Crisis knows that. Pretending that Alan Moore's Superman from For The Man Who Has Everything would have blown away galaxies if he accidentally sneezed during the fight is either lazy, stupid or trying to rewrite history in the exact opposite direction that the DC editors moved.
Nobody argues that Superman didn't fought Mongul Sr. Arguing that his fight with Mongul Sr. involved galaxy-shattering punches is idiotic.
Recently I was reading a John Byrne interview about The Man of Steel. I do not remember exactly where it was. But I remember He said something along the lines of wanting to make Superman to work harder to defeat his enemies. He did not mentioned depowerment per say, he just said "let's make the man of steel work a little bit more"
DC has stayed with the same policy and nothing has changed, but you still see Superman pulling upper feats.
Byrne era Superman also had some upper level feats.
Now current Superman at his power level, you can say he is LOW PC power level. So He can defitnetlly do it.
And actually most feats that are coming out for retcon stories are not that impresive and under the power levels of Current Superman.
Breaking a planet under 5 punches is something Current Superman can do. under the LAWS of comics, because I saw a guy using real laws on a fantasy world a few post back
It really is an interesting topic. It's a nice brain teaser. But, I will say that the Van Damne reference for bloodsport is not a good example. I could be wrong, but hear me out: To be equivalent, there would need to be a stack of bricks as high as the diameter of the earth, that would also contain the mass and sphere shape of the earth. In other words, think of a planetary sphere made up of bricks. No matter how much force is applied, I don't think he's doing more than creating a large crater. Now, that's just me. Again, I don't profess to be a science professor or geologist.
Originally posted by Stunner2xx
What would stop him from then flying into the middle of the Earth and punch from there. That would displace more matter since it the Earth is all compacted and centered at the Core?
Now this is very interesting. I Imagine that it could (not saying would) cause massive tsunamis and earthquakes at the crust. However, one thing to consider perhaps is whether or not the force would be absorbed by the mantle which is molten?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Taking your account with all full faith, that only proves that retcon scaling actually exists. And retcon scaling's nature is to make it more consistent with present portrayals. This only further proves darthgoober's point. And trying to project the highest levels of ability is transparent wishfulness.And for whatever reason, people continue to be too polite to point out that even right before the Crisis, powers were scaled back. HARD. Anybody who has read DC comics right before the Crisis knows that. Pretending that Alan Moore's Superman from For The Man Who Has Everything would have blown away galaxies if he accidentally sneezed during the fight is either lazy, stupid or trying to rewrite history in the exact opposite direction that the DC editors moved.
Nobody argues that Superman didn't fought Mongul Sr. Arguing that his fight with Mongul Sr. involved galaxy-shattering punches is idiotic.
i am siding with dumbgo about ppl using power scaling to build up a character in vs forums.
one character fighting another in the past with vastly different strength scale then present should not be used to to build a character to current lvl of strength...
its like ppl using current depowered jugg to show how some one vastly weaker can fight a powered up version of jugg leaving history and context out the window.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Of course, however Marvel moved in the same direction. Which is why it's laughable when 60's 70's and even some 80's feats are used to support the strength of say . . Thor, or Hulk, when it's been quite clear they aren't written like that -currently-. And it's not even a question of these events having actually transpired once upon a time, because of course, they did, however they are no more canon to the characters -- outside of reference alone -- than the pre-Crisis stories of DC's, which are now fully canon as well. 😉
^ Taking your account with all full faith, that only proves that retcon scaling actually exists. And retcon scaling's nature is to make it more consistent with present portrayals. This only further proves darthgoober's point. And trying to project the highest levels of ability is transparent wishfulness.And for whatever reason, people continue to be too polite to point out that even right before the Crisis, powers were scaled back. HARD. Anybody who has read DC comics right before the Crisis knows that. Pretending that Alan Moore's Superman from For The Man Who Has Everything would have blown away galaxies if he accidentally sneezed during the fight is either lazy, stupid or trying to rewrite history in the exact opposite direction that the DC editors moved.
Nobody argues that Superman didn't fought Mongul Sr. Arguing that his fight with Mongul Sr. involved galaxy-shattering punches is idiotic.
Current Superman has plenty of his own ridiculous feats anyways. Imo, outside of a few brief moments[typically specifically powered up], Superman has been more impressive over the last decade plus than either of them featwise, and quite substantially.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Pretending that Alan Moore's Superman from For The Man Who Has Everything would have blown away galaxies if he accidentally sneezed during the fight is either lazy, stupid or trying to rewrite history in the exact opposite direction that the DC editors moved.Nobody argues that Superman didn't fought Mongul Sr. Arguing that his fight with Mongul Sr. involved galaxy-shattering punches is idiotic.
i don't know who was arguing that...