Raziel vs OOT Link

Ad hominem? lol, saying its ok to be wrong, is not an attack and it has ot be part of an argument, so look through your fallacies and re-learn them. it was not part of my argument to call you wrong.

You were proven wrong, the fact your upset about it is natural for someone so prideful but claiming its impossible to fire your bow without being in the air only to have me counter and dash your argument by showing it being done proves that you were wrong.

What more do I have to prove? because it seems to me your trying to claim a players action is canon within the game.

Edit:

Also theres a lot of "I accept your concession" going around, its immature to say such if nobody has actually conceded. When I officially state that I have, then you can accept it, not before.

What have you actually proven? Both videos you posted, if anything, disproved your claims. Both players fired in midair over the course of the battle. Neither was doing it on purpose, it simply happened naturally.

What it comes down to is that your flimsy "player choice" argument is a moot point.

14. All characters are, by default, presented in vs. threads as they are in their respective games. This includes physical feats of strength, speed, durability, etc. shown in the games, regardless of the universe. The sole caveat to this is if the original post outlines imposed limitations.

The players chose to do that....their the ones controlling Link during that period. The fact by chance they fired the arrow while in the air does not make it canon, because you can do it while on the ground as the second video had proven.

No, drawring and fireing a bow is shown as an ability Link has. Not while mid air, its not scripted, its player choice. Maybe if I played OoT and left Link sitting in one area while I had lunch, maybe I can claim that Link in canon stood for hours doing nothing.....no?

Thats not canon....player choice. Gameplay mechanics/player choice=irrelevant. Therefore your point that Link can do it or has done it is disproven.

It is not "player choice." I could see a "player choice" argument if, say, someone claimed that the fight with Bongo Bongo canonically went on for hours, and then showed a video of a player purposely extending the battle for a long period of time.

This does not fall under that argument. Practically every player fires arrows in midair while fighting Bongo Bongo, and it takes an experienced, purposeful decision to attempt to not do so. If anything in this situation falls under your claim of "player choice" it's the claim that Link can canonically only fire arrows on the ground.

In essence, the game shows Link firing arrows on the ground. It shows him firing arrows on a horse. It shows him firing arrows in midair. There is no valid logical reason to claim that one of those can't happen.

Their both player choice, its a players choice to just stand around doing nothing. Just like its a players choice to either shoot his bow from the ground, or while in the air. The fact its a prefered tactic to spam the "fire" button for the bow regardless of where you are does not make it canon, its still player choice...

Thats player choice, I just showed you a player choosing to fire from the ground so how can you possibly claim its not? both of them are decisions, how "purposeful" it is, is irrelevant. We dont measure canon on how purposeful a players action is....since when does that happen?

If it does not show him fireing while in the air canonically, or if you dont have to fire in the air, like Bongo Bongo then its not canon that he did.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Their both player choice, its a players choice to just stand around doing nothing. Just like its a players choice to either shoot his bow from the ground, or while in the air. The fact its a prefered tactic to spam the "fire" button for the bow regardless of where you are does not make it canon, its still player choice...

Thats player choice, [b]I just showed you a player choosing to fire from the ground so how can you possibly claim its not? both of them are decisions, how "purposeful" it is, is irrelevant. We dont measure canon on how purposeful a players action is....since when does that happen?

If it does not show him fireing while in the air canonically, or if you dont have to fire in the air, like Bongo Bongo then its not canon that he did. [/B]

Either we debate the games as they are shown, or we don't debate games at all. Your "player choice" argument is a ludicrous cop-out in a medium so interactive as video games.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its not exactly the same, because its not scripted where he does it, its only scripted what he does. The fact the scripted event plays anywhere does not mean its scripted to play anywhre.

The player can choose to fire on the ground. The player can choose to fire in the air. If neither is canon, where did Link fire?

Assuming hes not tossed about with TK, the whole thing is useless, even if Link could fire an accurate shot while flying in the air, it makes no difference to Raziel.

Hover Boots make it so Link effectively has groound under his feet, so the throw becomes useless as Link is still shooting, and Raziel still can't move while TKing. If Raziel throws Link, he gets an arrow in the face.

If theres no real facts behind an object, its fair to try and discuss a logical deduction, otherwise we can only ignore the power entirely. And no, I have seen videos of where players shoot Bongo without needing the lense...

It's not really fair when the ones speculating are both biased all to hell. We see it being used without hands, and nothing contradicts this. There's no need to speculate.

And you mean when players choose to skip the Lens of Truth because they memorized the locations of every invisible thing in the game for a speedrun? Link is intended to use it again Bongo Bongo, and a few sequence breakers won't change that. Did you know it's possible to do the dungeons in any order you choose?

Thats argueing irrelevancy, if someone can control force, then they can control force. Argueing that they cant just because they did not do a specific feat is useless. Its like claiming a man who can throw a skyscraper cannot throw a boy, or use the force of his strength to crush a boy because hes not used it on a smaller area.....

Can a man who can lift a skyscraper lift a boy with only his pinky finger? You don't know how that would work, but the difference there is much greater than a block to a soldier. That's the exact same example I used, though. Raziel is only shown to affect a small area with one specific move, and it's demonstratably weaker than normal as well as continuous. He hasn't been shown to grip with that much force, nor has he been shown to be able to use it as a burst.

Perhaps, I agree with this. "perhaps" he can only form 50 tons of force with the blast, but not necesserily with the long term holding. But Raziel does not have to do it "long term" for it to be effective here.

I did not necesserily mean disarm, he could take things that Link would have on his person but not holding.

How does Raziel know what to take? I mean, seriously, all the crap Link carries and Raziel chooses to take the mask first? And that specific mask when Link has 24 more? Or does he choose the harmless looking nuts? The spyglass, maybe? A lot of Link's good stuff just doesn't look like a threat.

Maybe affecting him in some way, maybe not. We dont know for sure, if you want to argue this straw man then we can never know ofr certain how it affected him, if its the same when you wear the mask....

It's not a straw man unless I'm oversimplifying one of your points to make it easier to refute.

All we know is that the guy who had the mask was completely unnoticeable for years, despite talking and arming and trying to attract attention. Then he gives Link the mask, which does the same thing, and he's suddenly noticeable.

Thats not logic, thats your making a decision based on the gameplay mechanic. The logical reasoning is that Raziels TK is used by only doing several things, thats thinking and moving is hand....the fact his legs are moving, jumping etc are not connected. The concentration bit is more along hte lines of a logical answer, but considering Raziel Tked Kain through a dimentional portal while infused with the hylden madness, I doubt concentration would constrict his movement. Afterall you can still walk and move, even without concentration or while you are concentrating.

Raziel never moves while using TK. This is a fact. You're the one claiming he can move, so please prove it.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The player can choose to fire on the ground. The player can choose to fire in the air. If neither is canon, where did Link fire?

Hover Boots make it so Link effectively has groound under his feet, so the throw becomes useless as Link is still shooting, and Raziel still can't move while TKing. If Raziel throws Link, he gets an arrow in the face.

It's not really fair when the ones speculating are both biased all to hell. We see it being used without hands, and nothing contradicts this. There's no need to speculate.

And you mean when players choose to skip the Lens of Truth because they memorized the locations of every invisible thing in the game for a speedrun? Link is intended to use it again Bongo Bongo, and a few sequence breakers won't change that. Did you know it's possible to do the dungeons in any order you choose?

Can a man who can lift a skyscraper lift a boy with only his pinky finger? You don't know how that would work, but the difference there is much greater than a block to a soldier. That's the exact same example I used, though. Raziel is only shown to affect a small area with one specific move, and it's demonstratably weaker than normal as well as continuous. He hasn't been shown to grip with that much force, nor has he been shown to be able to use it as a burst.

How does Raziel know what to take? I mean, seriously, all the crap Link carries and Raziel chooses to take the mask first? And that specific mask when Link has 24 more? Or does he choose the harmless looking nuts? The spyglass, maybe? A lot of Link's good stuff just doesn't look like a threat.

It's not a straw man unless I'm oversimplifying one of your points to make it easier to refute.

All we know is that the guy who had the mask was completely unnoticeable for years, despite talking and arming and trying to attract attention. Then he gives Link the mask, which does the same thing, and he's suddenly noticeable.

Raziel never moves while using TK. This is a fact. You're the one claiming he can move, so please prove it.

We dont know do we, we cant claim either one canonically happened.

Yeh if hes stationary, that does not mean it negates all forces in the world. Infact it helps Raziel because the thrust from his own boots will speed him falling through the air. Infact, depending on how strong they are, he could end up flying all over the place without Raziel having to use TK lol....

We dont really see it being "used", we see it being "selected" in a hammerspace that does not even exist here....so technically, all we see is a third person view and a circle thats represents it within the gameplay....these things do not exist here, because this is a real life fight or I have come to belive, not a gameplay one.

Memorise, what are you talking about? I would not have to memorise it, Bongo bongo is damn obvious because you see his arms/hands. If I can make this deduction as an observer I am sure link can, point being Link does not need the lense, so it may not have even been used...

If grip allows it, I would certainly think so. Your keep bringing up "weaker" this and "weaker" that but as me and I think even bloodrain pointed out,TK does not just lose strength based on what your moving, I cannot think of a specific person but if your logic holds true, Overpowered Comic book character with super TK "A" would have the same TK strength on a man as Raziel using your logic...because apprently sttength of TK changes to match the target...

I can imagine anything he takes will be use to him, and be a weakness to Link. Also why would Link go straight to fireing arrows, or putting masks on to counter Raziels specific abilities? he does not even know what Raziel is going to do, if Raziel goes invisible he will need the lense, if he blinds him hes going to have to use nuts...he cant do everything at once but Raziels TK can be used in many situations.

Maybe the guy for one reason or another was made invisible. I dont know, point being we dont know all the facts. Link should gain the effects of all the masks he has just by owning them assuming thats how it worked.

I just did through logic, movement does not stop thought....your asking questions that do not make sense. Its like asking you constantly to prove each and every one of Links objects or arrows have affected wraiths like Raziel when its a pointless and illogical question to ask...

Originally posted by General Kaliero
By your "logic" everything in the game aside from scripted, uncontrollable cutscenes is "player choice." Running in any direction is player choice, any items used is player choice, and attacks including not only where or when but if they happen at all is player choice. Hell, the game doesn't even happen; it takes a player's choice to play the game.

Either we debate the games as they are shown, or we don't debate games at all. Your "player choice" argument is a ludicrous cop-out in a medium so interactive as video games.

No by my logic everything in the game thats scripted, has to happen, is supposed to happen and is logical to happen is canon. You dont take what a player decides to do as canon, I cant claim Link is a slow thinker because a player took ages on puzzle A, or that Link has poor bow skills because a player misses with the bow all the time because they have no idea how to control it...you could argue this with all games, what we choose to do is not canon. Thats going too far, because although its a players choice to play the game, that does not change content of said game so their choice not to paly it is irrelevant.

We debate characters as how they are shown based on storyline, if we use gameplay mechanics or player controlled aspects which we dont then were not really debating the character. Maybe I will say Link is a terrible fighter because when I play I am completly rubbish at the game......afterall thats how the game is shown right?

The only "ludicrous" cop out is bringing up how player choice to play the game negates the canon of the game. People debate game canon/characters, not gameplay mechanics.

Originally posted by Burning thought

No by my logic everything in the game thats scripted, has to happen, is supposed to happen and is logical to happen is canon. You dont take what a player decides to do as canon, I cant claim Link is a slow thinker because a player took ages on puzzle A, or that Link has poor bow skills because a player misses with the bow all the time because they have no idea how to control it...you could argue this with all games, what we choose to do is not canon. Thats going too far, because although its a players choice to play the game, that does not change content of said game so their choice not to paly it is irrelevant.

We debate characters as how they are shown based on storyline, if we use gameplay mechanics or player controlled aspects which we dont then were not really debating the character. Maybe I will say Link is a terrible fighter because when I play I am completly rubbish at the game......afterall thats how the game is shown right?

The only "ludicrous" cop out is bringing up how player choice to play the game negates the canon of the game. People debate game canon/characters, not gameplay mechanics.

14. All characters are, by default, presented in vs. threads as they are in their respective games. This includes physical feats of strength, speed, durability, etc. shown in the games, regardless of the universe. The sole caveat to this is if the original post outlines imposed limitations.

Link can in the game, therefore he can here. Plain and simple. If you cannot acknowledge that simple ruling, you can debate elsewhere, because debates will go nowhere here.

For the record:

10. This is character vs., not actually "game vs. game" versus.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
There is a severe difference between action and ability. Actions fall to the player, abilities fall to Link's game code. Whether or not you as the player actually perform an action does not change the fact that Link, the character, is able to.

Link can in the game, therefore he can here. Plain and simple. If you cannot acknowledge that simple ruling, you can debate elsewhere, because debates will go nowhere here.

For the record:

We do not debate the characters-as-they-relate-to-storylines. We debate the characters.

You did not even counter any points, and your new rule does not cover my argument, characters have always been presented how their games define them but players dont define characters or their canon. If you want to argue gameplay mechanics then make a thread, please do but this thread was not made with gameplay mechanics enabled.

We debate character capability, not player.

Originally posted by Burning thought
this thread was not made with gameplay mechanics enabled.

You did not make this thread, you do not have any say.

Originally posted by Burning thought
We debate character capability, not player.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Precisely, and as the videos you so helpfully posted show, there is absolutely nothing preventing Link the character from drawing and firing a bow in midair.

Hes never done it in canon. So we cannot say he can, game coding/mechanics do not make storyline canon. If were argueing coding then technically "the characters" can also glitch through objects in the game world, do we include that? because afterall "charaters are as they are shown in their games"......

Borderlands characters can meld through objects, because in-game you can get to the Armoury of General knoxx by sliding through the floor. its all code afterall....

Originally posted by Peach
You did not make this thread, you do not have any say.

😆 read the OP, it says nothing about gameplay mechanics being enabled.

Sorry, me being a novice here, but what exactly IS canon for a video game character, BT, if what the character can legitimately do in the game is not?

Is the implication that the mid-air bow firing is a bug of some sort?

What IS canon, are scripted, cinematics, things they have actually done during a moment. For example, God of War Kratos can rip apart enemies becaue his strength allows it, using GK logic, the game shows us that he has to wait for a circle to appear above the opponents head, or for them to be weakened before he can do so. Thats how the gameplay shows us it works, but thats not whats canon. Because the cinematics contradict this. Kratos has proven to be more than strong enough...the fact he has trouble with some doors or enemies in the gameplay does not make it canon, nor does it make it canon that Kratos died, respawned from a check point because a player is poor at the game.

A character cannot do everything its coding allows it to do, or fastens it to. In turn based games such as Final fantasy, the mechanics are that they have to wait their turn, we never use that in a games vs debate. Its ridiculous mechanics, although thats how the character is shown, they did not do it in canon, understand? Cloud did not stand there to take 33 damage from Shinra goon A, or B because his action points ran out 🙂

Its just a scripted animation, regardless of where the character is. The fact it can happen does not mean it did happen, especially when its chosen by a player. Considering every players tactic is different, theres no reasoning to suggest one or the other happened.

Right... all I can say to that, then, BT, is that you are in the wrong place. I can see a point of view where you could debate game characters as to how they perform in scripted events and cutscenes only...

... but this is clearly not such a place, and I suggest you search elsewhere if you want that sort of debate. Very clearly, this place by default includes their feats performed during gameplay and it would be appreciated if you stuck to those rules, thank you.

I think a trifle of common sense covers the transition for a turn based game, though it's not always possible to properly match characters in such a diverse genre as video gaming.

Is that the rules? then every thread should be closed, I can think of only a few threads where gmaeplay mechanics are considered at all. I guess I should report anyone in any thread for not taking heed of the gameplay mechanics, thank you for opening my eyes....

We cant use common sense, its in the rules you see that the characters are shown as the game shows them......so, their damned....stuck to wait their turn...

Sure, though I reckon if I then checked that with the mods they'd assure me that those rules were being followed.

And ok, if you are hardcore on that level of being literal then you won't be able to compare characters from turn based games! I reckon others think that can be worked around though.

I think of a lot of work arounds for all these daft little mechanics. But unfortunatly we cant use them, because you see the characters are stuck to how their presented in the games...

Ok if thats the case, Raziel has a larger hipoints bar than Link. Raziels bar only goes down a small amount per strike. Now, using the block/TK trick in SR 1, you can spam TK bolts while running. Link can only jump so high, and in gameplay he is not that fast, dont forget that you have to Lock on to Raziel as well, the little yellow reticules have to highlight him and this takes some time from looking at hte bongo vids, a few seconds i would say to lock on, pull back and shoot.

Arrows travel at a fairly slow speed in the gameplay as well, therefore I think Raziels gameplay speed vs arrows could help him but he only takes a small amount of damage from arrows. I dont see slow Link whos only got so many hearts to survive by from strikes can face someone with Raziels health bar, hell it hardly goes down by the end of the game unless demons fight him.

Oh and the SR in soul reaver 1 is pretty much a 1 hit kill....enemies just explode. Link, his arrows etc are too slow to escape, especially with the TK/move spam I mentioned earlier.

Again, I think you are a bit literal saying that they are 'stuck' as to how they perform in the games; I think it is a relatively simple process of matching their game mechanics as to how they would perform in a fight- though obviously that is an area open to great interpretation which is indeed an issue with video games versus battles! I'd certainly advance the idea that in live action games, the process is easy; if it is a move the character is designed to be able to do, then he can do it in a fight.

But all that is pretty irrelevant. All we are saying here is that it is difficult, and I agree with you, and you are raising legitimate points as to why it is difficult. But that's why we have mods that set the rules, to regulate it, and they've done that and those are the rules, so you'll just have to play by them I am afraid! Apologies if they are not to your taste.