Raziel vs OOT Link

See, that's exactly what I've been trying to say
You seem to struggle to keep your bias at bay.
Link's feats are greater, this is without doubt.
But still you claim Raziel has a way out.

Fact is, he's slower, weaker, and cannot hurt Link.
His powers are useless, whatever you might think.
Invisibility takes too long, and Link has the lens.
So even if he casts it, there's no differenz!

Link will find him, kill him, and win.
Nothing Raziel has, can hope to save him.
Furthermore, you'll look quite the fool,
when you discover KMC's new rule.

A new rule has been made, which covers Link's feats,
which ensures, you can only cry whiel Raziel gets beat.

There is no bias at all. Those are all nice claims, but unproven. Raziel tosses Link around like a rag doll using Tk, and kills him at his leisure....

KMC's new rule does not cover any of my arguments, it does not counter them either. KMC will have to develop a rule that makes Link much quicker than a normal human, have better reaction feats, better powers and weapons and most of all, decline the use of TK in threads against characters who are helpless. Then Raziel "may" lose.

Now, now, BT, please pay attention.
Failing your lesson may mean detention. 131

14. All characters are, by default, presented in vs. threads as they are in their respective games. This includes physical feats of strength, speed, durability, etc. shown in the games, regardless of the universe.

Link's strength, as shown in O-o-T,
is above Raziel's strength and durability!
His speed, as shown in his own universe,
Is sufficient to end Raziel before he can curse.

Tennis with lightning, against which you have no evidence
is greater than a few jumps at the owner of your residence.

Receiving a blow on your blade, from a beast like Ganon,
is so bloody impressive that you question the canon...
But it happened, yes it did, and as such, young d00d,
I am glad to inform you, Raziel's quite screwed.

Yes i have read the rule, it changes nothing.

Tennis with lightning as most people have proven does not give him any impressive speed. Recieving a blow from Ganon has been calculated by Bloodrain, it gives Link very limited durability even if we assume the 600 tons of force excisted, considering the Mastersword, e.g. the light little lump of metal tossed a few meters.

I could have done that....I would be surprised if any adult human being could not toss a sword a few meters. The fact Raziels claws slice through the sword and Link like butter, slow link who has no real speed feats is what will make you "go home, eat dinner, and weep".

Originally posted by Burning thought
He did not do it, only in uncanon gameplay, player chosen.

Would you like me to make a list
Of Raziel's powers only in gameplay exist?
Player choice is irrelevant, Link fires his bow
In the air or not, whether high or low
And the Hover Boots, too, give Link a foothold
To stand and put an arrow in his opponent's mold

The game shows us gameplay mechanics, if you think your allowed to use any gameplay mechanic from hammerspace to player activations then you are quite mistaken, this is not a gameplay activated match iirc.

Not contradicted, confirmed in canon
Bongo Bongo disagrees with this theory
Both are required at once, not fanon
Speculation isn't fact, if leery

Its not even that, its a gameplay mechanic if all we can do is use what we see.

Regardless of this your speculation fails
There's nothing to indicate it must be held
We see it used without those nails
So the conclusion reached is not the meld

Which is negated by the fact we dont use gameplay mechanics. I think the object being a looking glass that gives link the ability to see such things is the evidecne in itself, what evidence do you have? players selecting it in the hammerspace screen? 😉

My evidence comes from the canon fight
With Bongo Bongo in the blight
Bow and Arrow and Lens, too
All at once, no holding for you

Hardly irrelevant, he has to get them somehow, and he does not have a hammerspace irl unless you can prove it mentioned canonically ofc. Which means their somewhere on his person.

Or not, demonstrated by Sheik.
The one cutscene proves your argument weak
No need for a pocket, Deku Nuts not even seen
Just an arm movement and gone with a sheen

He states he was asking for help, I dont recall him saying he was yelling. And thats besides the point, the Soldier did not wear the mask, the fact he suddenly becomes visible is irrelevant.

If you can't be seen, you wouldn't yell?
Regardless, arm waving and questions don't quell
The power of the Mask, with the soldier hidden
Raziel won't see Link, unless he's bidden

Why? why cant I claim the strength of TK, does not carry over to what he TK's? thats the whole point of TK.....thats like saying if Mew Two can control hurricanes with TK, then he cannot use the force he used on a hurricane in a smaller area, this is daft as the TK strength is still there, it does not diminish unless one chooses to diminish it.

I meant the TK's strength of course
Small workings, small power, less resource
Mewtwo's example is quite good for that
Making a storm, won't crush a man like a gnat
Different use, different strength
Can you give me a length?

Thats if he stops to do anything, he does not have to stop to do anything other than perhaps use a reaver spell. Theres no reason why Raziel uses superior speed to get well out of range of Link and then just uses reaver spells, only to return and rip link apart. I would not be surprised if Raziel just Tks a thrown nut back at Link or breaks it in his hands with Tk.

Out of range in regard to Link?
That's much harder than you'd think
Bow and arrow, if you remember
And run Raziel through with a shard of tender
But if the wraith TK's he must stop to use
Which puts him square in Link's views

The soldier does not wear the mask, so the mask is not relevant. Raziel can see things that nobody else can see, if this is a question of sight then Raziel can see the inconcievable (elder god, spirits etc) if this is not, and its just a trick to make Link seem plain like the mask does, then he does not have the same advantage because being plain does not stop someone whos aim it is to kill from noticing you.

It's the soldier's mask, the soldier's power
He's more relevant than the hour
Remaining unnoticed is his thing
An ability imparted into his bling
It is a trick, no invisibility cloak
But Raziel still won't notice Link's choke

Player choice is relevant, because its uncanon. If a player chooses something, it does not make it canon in the game when theres no other connection to story.

neither of those confirm anything, or counter me.

Thats because as shown, Mewtwo can use to use different power, any Tker can. Kain can toss aside Moebius' staff which is light wood OR pull down heavy pillars.

I probably would yell but the soldier did not, I would probably remove mystical objects from me as well, just in case they were the problem so I dont think this soldier is logical. Either way, he does not help your case, hes not wearing hte mask.

Not really, out of range of Links Deku nut would make Link useless, one TK thats all Raziel needs. Not sure where your getting "must stop to use" thing apart from maybe gameplay, your thesis is not logical.

Also keep your replies in normal posts please, I dont understand half of what your saying, they look more like claims of victory without evidence or logic.

Player choice always relevant? I wouldn't think it's considered uncanon unless it contradicts the story as continued later in the game or a sequel.

And since you're talking about something as foolish as the Bongo Bongo fight clinging to the hope that Link can't slaughter Raziel at any given moment.

Not sure what Scenario means with the TK segment. If one can lift a mountain with TK they'd be able to up to that strength/force in any way TKable.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Player choice always relevant? I wouldn't think it's considered uncanon unless it contradicts the story as continued later in the game or a sequel.

And since you're talking about something as foolish as the Bongo Bongo fight clinging to the hope that Link can't slaughter Raziel at any given moment.

What? lol, player choice is uncanon by the fact player choice is different for every player (almost). Just because in Lok I used certainly powers at different times during the gameplay does not make it canon that Kain actually used powers in that order.

I dont know what your talking about there, theres no way Link can slaughter Raziel at all...Raziel has all the cards and Links only got the choice to be plain and boring when he dies or not.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Not sure what Scenario means with the TK segment. If one can lift a mountain with TK they'd be able to up to that strength/force in any way TKable.

He questions things regardless of how illogical the question is. Its what he does, I would not be surprised if he argued if someone can throw a mountain with pure strength, they could not put that force into anything smaller and would throw a man or weapon with less force every time...

Originally posted by Burning thought
What? lol, player choice is uncanon by the fact player choice is different for every player (almost).

Oh Snapple.

Such a tasty drink.

And oh snap, another victory for Link over something from LoK.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
This assumption regarding firing the bow in midair is absolutely incorrect. Because of the length of time it takes to draw the bow and fire, versus the time between Bongo Bongo's hits on the drum, there is absolutely no way to get through that required boss fight without drawing and firing in midair. It's not a player choice, it's an unavoidable result of a scripted plot sequence.

Thats actually false, in this video below:

Ap0io293r8E&feature=player_embedded

You can see between 0:36 and 0:38 that Bongo's beat hits 3 times before the final one that knocks Link into the air. The player in this video only just draws as he arrives in the air. Based on the short amount of time it takes to load and fire, and how much longer the beats are. It can be done without being knocked into the air.

You can draw your bow and fire as you land on the ground if you wanted to:

YouTube video

At 7:50 in this vid, the player had pulled back the string and fired as he stood on firm ground ,Player choice...

This does not correlate to canon, whereby a boss follows the gameplay mechanics of its fight in gameplay, its not to assume Bongo Bongo would just sit there for hours in a fight just because the player may choose to. (I have yet to find a vid where a player does just sit there and lets him bang the drum so I assume the boss does not move on to the next phase of the fight before having his hand shot).

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Oh Snapple.

Such a tasty drink.

And oh snap, another victory for Link over something from LoK.

Link has no victory over anyone other than perhaps the Grey Warden....also Link being able to fire his bow while being bumped a few feet in the air does not help him against any of Raziels powers....

Also, although the prefered tactic to use is a bow, for all I know, Link used a sword to attack Bongo's hands. Also, looking at other videos, you dont need the lense of truth at all.....

Lol. There is a bit of a difference between doing what the game intended and pros at the game doing what they do because they just can because they've played the game a couple thousand times.

I dont know what that statement is supposed to counter. If you can choose to use a bow, or a sword etc, then its not canon that Link used either one at that point. Not everyone needs the lense of truth, and for all I know, not everyone even needs the bow. What I do know, is that you dont have to fire it while in the air 🙂

Well, I am pretty damn sure that you can't use a sword, because most of the time Bongo Bongo is over the edge of the huge drum that is your walking area. You would have to shoot him first to expose it or whatever.

Which does not help you at all. In fact, it would actually make Link more impressive, because in addition to being aerial and constantly moving while aiming, something also done with him commonly practicing horseback archery, he is now timing his shot to be on the ground when he fires.

Of course there's a serious problem with your logic here anyway, as always. Apparently we can choose to use Bow or Sword, meaning neither is canon. So we can only assume that Link beat up Bongo Bongo with his fists. Neat. He punched a ghost.

You can choose to fire in the air or on the ground, so neither is canon. Was he in space or underwater?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Player choice is relevant, because its uncanon. If a player chooses something, it does not make it canon in the game when theres no other connection to story.

While I extend thanks to the good General, I feel I still need to respond to this as well. All I'm saying here is that you seem to accept scripted events, which happen when a player presses a button. And I'm also saying that since Link is scripted to perform an action regardless of where he is, you should accept it because it is the same exact thing.

Also, there is still the matter of the Hover boots. Even if Link is in the air, the boots will provide him enough footing to still do whatever he needs to do, thus making the rest of that useless.

neither of those confirm anything, or counter me.

The fact is that you are speculating. We don't use speculation, isn't that right? I don't know why you seem to think that just because you put a theory together, we should all just abide by it as if it were fact. I say that we don't see Link actually use the Lens, and we know that in canon, both the bow and Lens are required to defeat Bongo Bongo. Both of those are actual facts, and your speculation just doesn't work when they are considered.

Thats because as shown, Mewtwo can use to use different power, any Tker can. Kain can toss aside Moebius' staff which is light wood OR pull down heavy pillars.

But he doesn't use as much strength tossing the staff as he does with the pillars, and he's likely using a smaller form to account for the smaller area he's affecting. Mewtwo with the storm is a large area that he can put power into, but later in the movie when he, say, lifts one guy and makes a crushing gesture, it just causes pain. Like lifting something heavy with one finger instead of your hand, Raziel hasn't really been shown to affect a significantly smaller area with the same amount of force as something larger.

But also, there's the difference between a burst and a continuous effect. A burst might be really strong for a moment but fade away quickly, and a continuous effect is weaker but can be kept up for longer. Raziel can push a heavy block with TK (player choice?) but so far he's only shown to lift infinitely lighter creatures for a significant period of time.

I am questioning Raziel's supposed ability to apply his full TK to an object in Link's possession, which is relatively small, without pulling Link along with it. He'd need to basically grip that small object, something he's only ever done with his shackles, which are a continuous effect. To continue that metaphor, if it were physical, Raziel is trying to disarm Link using only his thumb, and he's pulling continuously lightly instead of which one jerking motion.

I probably would yell but the soldier did not, I would probably remove mystical objects from me as well, just in case they were the problem so I dont think this soldier is logical. Either way, he does not help your case, hes not wearing hte mask.

It's the same ability, and once the soldier gives Link the mask, he becomes visible. The only thing different was that he no longer had the mask, so logically the mask was affecting him in some way. Regardless of this, I showed you the video of Link using the Stone Mask, ans no one reacts at all to his presence. Assuming Raziel will just see Link anyway is ignoring evidence.

Not really, out of range of Links Deku nut would make Link useless, one TK thats all Raziel needs. Not sure where your getting "must stop to use" thing apart from maybe gameplay, your thesis is not logical.

It's actually quite logical. See, every time Raziel has ever used TK, he has stopped moving and stood in place to do so. You assuming that Raziel can move while using TK is unsupported and goes against all evidence. Perhaps he needs some level of concentration, but the explanation doesn't matter, as Raziel has always stopped to use his TK. This will leave him vulnerable.

Also keep your replies in normal posts please, I dont understand half of what your saying, they look more like claims of victory without evidence or logic.

Alright, yeah, I'll stop since I actually take you seriously.

Originally posted by The Scenario
While I extend thanks to the good General, I feel I still need to respond to this as well. All I'm saying here is that you seem to accept scripted events, which happen when a player presses a button. And I'm also saying that since Link is scripted to perform an action regardless of where he is, you should accept it because it is the same exact thing.

Also, there is still the matter of the Hover boots. Even if Link is in the air, the boots will provide him enough footing to still do whatever he needs to do, thus making the rest of that useless.

The fact is that you are speculating. We don't use speculation, isn't that right? I don't know why you seem to think that just because you put a theory together, we should all just abide by it as if it were fact. I say that we don't see Link actually use the Lens, and we know that in canon, both the bow and Lens are required to defeat Bongo Bongo. Both of those are actual facts, and your speculation just doesn't work when they are considered.

But he doesn't use as much strength tossing the staff as he does with the pillars, and he's likely using a smaller form to account for the smaller area he's affecting. Mewtwo with the storm is a large area that he can put power into, but later in the movie when he, say, lifts one guy and makes a crushing gesture, it just causes pain. Like lifting something heavy with one finger instead of your hand, Raziel hasn't really been shown to affect a significantly smaller area with the same amount of force as something larger.

But also, there's the difference between a burst and a continuous effect. A burst might be really strong for a moment but fade away quickly, and a continuous effect is weaker but can be kept up for longer. Raziel can push a heavy block with TK (player choice?) but so far he's only shown to lift infinitely lighter creatures for a significant period of time.

I am questioning Raziel's supposed ability to apply his full TK to an object in Link's possession, which is relatively small, without pulling Link along with it. He'd need to basically grip that small object, something he's only ever done with his shackles, which are a continuous effect. To continue that metaphor, if it were physical, Raziel is trying to disarm Link using only his thumb, and he's pulling continuously lightly instead of which one jerking motion.

It's the same ability, and once the soldier gives Link the mask, he becomes visible. The only thing different was that he no longer had the mask, so logically the mask was affecting him in some way. Regardless of this, I showed you the video of Link using the Stone Mask, ans no one reacts at all to his presence. Assuming Raziel will just see Link anyway is ignoring evidence.

It's actually quite logical. See, every time Raziel has ever used TK, he has stopped moving and stood in place to do so. You assuming that Raziel can move while using TK is unsupported and goes against all evidence. Perhaps he needs some level of concentration, but the explanation doesn't matter, as Raziel has always stopped to use his TK. This will leave him vulnerable.

Alright, yeah, I'll stop since I actually take you seriously.

Its not exactly the same, because its not scripted where he does it, its only scripted what he does. The fact the scripted event plays anywhere does not mean its scripted to play anywhre.

Assuming hes not tossed about with TK, the whole thing is useless, even if Link could fire an accurate shot while flying in the air, it makes no difference to Raziel.

If theres no real facts behind an object, its fair to try and discuss a logical deduction, otherwise we can only ignore the power entirely. And no, I have seen videos of where players shoot Bongo without needing the lense...

Thats argueing irrelevancy, if someone can control force, then they can control force. Argueing that they cant just because they did not do a specific feat is useless. Its like claiming a man who can throw a skyscraper cannot throw a boy, or use the force of his strength to crush a boy because hes not used it on a smaller area.....

Perhaps, I agree with this. "perhaps" he can only form 50 tons of force with the blast, but not necesserily with the long term holding. But Raziel does not have to do it "long term" for it to be effective here.

I did not necesserily mean disarm, he could take things that Link would have on his person but not holding.

Maybe affecting him in some way, maybe not. We dont know for sure, if you want to argue this straw man then we can never know ofr certain how it affected him, if its the same when you wear the mask....

Thats not logic, thats your making a decision based on the gameplay mechanic. The logical reasoning is that Raziels TK is used by only doing several things, thats thinking and moving is hand....the fact his legs are moving, jumping etc are not connected. The concentration bit is more along hte lines of a logical answer, but considering Raziel Tked Kain through a dimentional portal while infused with the hylden madness, I doubt concentration would constrict his movement. Afterall you can still walk and move, even without concentration or while you are concentrating.

Thank you.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Well, I am pretty damn sure that you can't use a sword, because most of the time Bongo Bongo is over the edge of the huge drum that is your walking area. You would have to shoot him first to expose it or whatever.

Which does not help you at all. In fact, it would actually make Link more impressive, because in addition to being aerial and constantly moving while aiming, something also done with him commonly practicing horseback archery, he is now timing his shot to be on the ground when he fires.

Of course there's a serious problem with your logic here anyway, as always. Apparently we can choose to use Bow or Sword, meaning neither is canon. So we can only assume that Link beat up Bongo Bongo with his fists. Neat. He punched a ghost.

You can choose to fire in the air or on the ground, so neither is canon. Was he in space or underwater?

I dont know what your trying to say with that bit, your clamiing timing. I am just saying Link can draw his bow, and then wait to fire when its steady and hes on the ground so his aim is not off, thats within human capability.

It means we cannot assume either weapon was canonically used at a specific time, we cant assume anyo ne object was used therefore claiming feats from it is faulty. Ofc I dont know, I can only assume he can only use a bow.

Oh BT, you amuse me so. Both videos you yourself posted show at least one occurrence when Link very clearly draws and fires in midair, and you claim he cannot do that? Nevermind the fact that even these players showing off and talking big apparently don't fire only on the ground. Only the most dedicated seasoned players have even a chance to prevent themselves from bouncing while firing arrows (and neither of those you posted could manage even that), so it's plain to see, very plain indeed, that the average player, the general audience, is in fact intended to fire arrows in midair. You yourself have shown all the necessary evidence to negate your own claim.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know what your trying to say with that bit, your clamiing timing. I am just saying Link can draw his bow, and then wait to fire when its steady and hes on the ground so his aim is not off, thats within human capability.

I have shown the necessery evidence that I am correct. Its entirely player choice, you can argue as many times as you like how it takes a seasoned player to do it while on the ground. If you want to argue something as pointless as that then I can cliam Link is perhaps the most seasoned of all, considering I expect he has more experiance than the kids controlling him in canon. The whole thing is player choice, negating completly the idea that Link canonically can fire while in mid air.

Its ok to be wrong General 🙂

Originally posted by Burning thought
I have shown the necessery evidence that I am correct. Its entirely player choice, you can argue as many times as you like how it takes a seasoned player to do it while on the ground. If you want to argue something as pointless as that then I can cliam Link is perhaps the most seasoned of all, considering I expect he has more experiance than the kids controlling him in canon. The whole thing is player choice, negating completly the idea that Link canonically can fire while in mid air.

Its ok to be wrong General 🙂