Blue marvel vs superman · Comic Book 'Versus' Forum

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Well you see in the exact story, Grodd and Cheetah just standing there.

And Sinestro referencing the time he spent years in the AM universe.

And we don't even see any proof to the contrary, apart from the statements.

That's ignoring any other instances, just focussing on the proof Carv has attempted to bring.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well you see in the exact story, Grodd and Cheetah just standing there.
And Sinestro referencing the time he spent years in the AM universe.
And we don't even see any proof to the contrary, apart from the statements.
That's ignoring any other instances, just focussing on the proof Carv has attempted to bring.

Yes but it was established in COIE that there are special protections against such auto reactions, and unless I'm mistaken those protections have been given by the Green Lanterns. Thus Sinestro would obviously be able to do similar.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes but it was established in COIE that there are special protections against such auto reactions, and unless I'm mistaken those protections have been given by the Green Lanterns. Thus Sinestro would obviously be able to do similar.

Without being shown (we weren't shown anything with Grodd and Cheetah) you're just making things up and assuming.

Inconsistent? Sure. Inconsistent enough to make Carver's post moot? Sure.

As you yourself acknowledge.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Without being shown (we weren't shown anything with Grodd and Cheetah) you're just making things up and assuming.
Inconsistent? Sure. Inconsistent enough to make Carver's post moot? Sure.
As you yourself acknowledge.

It's not making things up to assume to acknowledge things that have been established before hand. If I see a panel where Flash is in San Francisco and the next panel the narration says "Less than a second later" and shows him in Oklahoma, I figure he ran there rather than teleport even if I never see him in the air. If Supes gets blasted by green energy and immediately ends up weakened and ****ed up, I can be pretty sure it's because he just got blasted with Kryptonite even if it's never expressly said. If Captain Marvel shows up in Binary form, I can safely assume that she found and drained some major energy source off panel to power up rather than assume that she spontaneously developed the ability to shift into that form at will. Canon doesn't need constant reaffirmation and there is a difference between a baseless assumption and logical deduction.

I do totally agree that such things are handled inconsistently, but I in no way see them as being moot. There doesn't have to be a definitive answer to any particular point brought up in a vs thread after all. It's entirely possible to acknowledge that because DC and Marvel have handled anti-matter a little differently that Supes's ability to handle anti-matter blasts could be virtually non-existent, or it could be comparable to his ability to his ability to handle blasts from other types of energy. Both possibilities can be acknowledged and discussed to allow the conversation to actually move forward rather than allow it to become the singular focus point of the entire thread.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Except.....we see Grodd and Cheetah standing there, with no protection.

Its not constant reaffirmation, it's literally not shown.

Your logic is, well let's assume Flash ran, even though he's not shown to have any legs in the scan......

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except.....we see Grodd and Cheetah standing there, with no protection.
Its not constant reaffirmation, it's literally not shown.
Your logic is, well let's assume Flash ran, even though he's not shown to have any legs in the scan......

In that particular instance, it's not specifically shown. If you're demanding that it be shown in literally every issue where it's relevant, then yeah you're demanding constant reaffirmation. Now if one were to try to claim such a thing for a character from Marvel or Image comics, THAT would be a baseless assumption because there's been nothing to establish that such a thing might exist. But when you're talking about DC, they've specifically made that particular point multiple times thus it's logical deduction rather than a baseless assumption. Why are you assuming such protections would be visible anyway? I honestly don't remember whether or not all the characters in COIE were constantly surrounded by a visible energy field when they were interacting with the anti-matter universe so I don't even know if that was ever a thing.

abhilegend Prince of All Saiyans

Superman has already taken positron attacks from Icon which is as likely as Anti matter attacks.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Icon/Issue-16?id=78713

So yeah.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Because it's the exact same scene where Carver is using to show how positive matter characters need protection.

And we are shown such protection, i.e. a green field for the JL.

I'm not asking for different writers, or different comics, or different issues, or even different pages of the same comic.

Its literally the same page. And we are shown that positive matter characters don't have such protections.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because it's the exact same scene where Carver is using to show how positive matter characters need protection.
And we are shown such protection, i.e. a green field for the JL.
I'm not asking for different writers, or different comics, or different issues, or even different pages of the same comic.
Its literally the same page. And we are shown that positive matter characters don't have such protections.

The villains have kind of a bright backdrop and are fairly small on panel. If their field was as thin as the JL's, it might not really be visible. And honestly, they do have kind of a "glowy" look about them, but that might just be me because I'm colorblind and have some issues when it comes to subtle shifts in color. What's more, I fail to see how the villains for whatever reason not needing protection disproves that Supes would need it if he himself is specifically being protected by the green field(I haven't read the issue in question and have no knowledge of any context beyond the scan itself so forgive me for misunderstanding if it turns out he's not being protected by the field).

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

My point is that it's not actually shown that they need the protection, it's merely a statement from John Stewart.

Statements don't hold as much weight as feats, particularly when its inconsistent (as you say), and PARTICULARLY as it's so inconsistent that Sinestro/Grodd/Cheetah can literally stand there and not need protection.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My point is that it's not actually shown that they need the protection, it's merely a statement from John Stewart.
Statements don't hold as much weight as feats, particularly when its inconsistent (as you say), and PARTICULARLY as it's so inconsistent that Sinestro/Grodd/Cheetah can literally stand there and not need protection.

And what... you want them to prove the statement by obliterating the JL for not having a field and have the villains win the day? This isn't some random off hand shit that's going down, this is a seasoned GL saying something that goes in hand with what's already been established in canon. If you're going to ignore that, then literally NO statement made by anyone... ever... holds any weight whatsoever. Waverider saying that they needed to BFR DD to the end of time means nothing, anyone claiming that World Forger/Monitor/Antimonitor/Perpetua ever did anything not specifically seen on panel means nothing, Supes saying that he's feeling weakened by K-nite or Red Sun radiation during a story means nothing...

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Originally posted by darthgoober
And what... you want them to prove the statement by obliterating the JL for not having a field and have the villains win the day? This isn't some random off hand shit that's going down, this is a seasoned GL saying something that goes in hand with what's already been established in canon. If you're going to ignore that, then literally NO statement made by anyone... ever... holds any weight whatsoever. Waverider saying that they needed to BFR DD to the end of time means nothing, anyone claiming that World Forger/Monitor/Antimonitor/Perpetua ever did anything not specifically seen on panel means nothing, Supes saying that he's feeling weakened by K-nite or Red Sun radiation during a story means nothing...

Well, yeah. Because this is a seasoned GL saying something that goes AGAINST with what's already established in canon.

And on the very same page, a mere few panels away, three prime examples of it NOT occuring 🙂

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, yeah. Because this is a seasoned GL saying something that goes AGAINST with what's already established in canon.
And on the very same page, a mere few panels away, three prime examples of it NOT occuring 🙂

So you believe that the colorer has more control over the story than the writers?

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Well, considering Ultraman (in this very storyline) doesn't obliterate positive matter by his mere presence, and the writer hasn't written anything about him having special protection.....

And again, in their previous trips, the League of Doom haven't needed special protections, whether written or drawn....

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, considering Ultraman (in this very storyline) doesn't obliterate positive matter by his mere presence, and the writer hasn't written anything about him having special protection.....
And again, in their previous trips, the League of Doom haven't needed special protections, whether written or drawn....

Again, canon doesn't need constant reaffirmation. If it's already been established that one needs the special protection, then it's logical deduction to assume that anyone who doesn't explode has special protection during the interaction. ESPECIALLY if the explosive effects are referenced within the specific story being discussed by someone like a GL. There are a lot of stories where such things aren't touched on whatsoever and antimatter is treated simply as an exotic form of energy, I've freely acknowledged that from the get go. But in this particular case it seems a lot more like we're talking about one of the showings were it's very specifically being treated as being significantly more than that.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Cool.

So when Superman fights a being from the antimatter universe and punches him just fine without exploding, he's got protection as standard 👆

And yes, it WAS being talked up as more. It was the pivot upon why Carver thinks BM would beat Superman - because in that specific scene, John said one needed special protection in the AM universe.

Adam Grimes Devil On Your Shoulder

But antimatter in Marvel is *not* the same thing that it is in DC. At all.

All discussion past that falls into the assumption that it is the same thing. Which is just that, assumption not backed by comics.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Pretty much.

Antimatter as fired by BM doesn't obliterate positive matter in Marvel - certainly not in the way John talks about in DC. Otherwise just the air around his blasts would react and everything would be destroyed.

To hang ones hat on the JL showing is.... suspect.

To White Knight without knowing the full context is...even more so.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool.
So when Superman fights a being from the antimatter universe and punches him just fine without exploding, he's got protection as standard 👆
And yes, it WAS being talked up as more. It was the pivot upon why Carver thinks BM would beat Superman - because in that specific scene, John said one needed special protection in the AM universe.

Of course not, now you're suggesting a permanent off panel upgrade the likes of which have never been suggested to be possible. I already acknowledged that such things are handled inconsistently from writer to writer and have no doubt that the writer of the Supes/Ultraman fight simply didn't give a shit and ignored it.

Well if it was being talked up as more, then the intent was obvious and carv's got a point with the scene. BUT that's just one scene. Don't forget, I was trying to explain the reasoning behind that whole line of thought to carv and explain why Supes's fight with Ultraman does in fact contradict the notion that contact alone is enough to destroy both and demonstrate that it's handled inconsistently. But him being wrong about that imo doesn't make you right about saying that GL's statement is proven false by the appearance of the villains.

See here's the prob Saint. carv's not going to learn and/or change his behavior patterns even if you manage to "out carver, carver". What ends up happening is that multiple people end up doing the same thing... which means in the end there are a bunch of people doing the very type of thing they accuse carv and albert of doing and the whole thing turns into a total cluster f*ck. So even if the worst opinions about those two posters were true(not saying they are you two, just getting to the point), the other side would be a bigger problem because there's a whole gang of guys using crappy arguments on one side while only 2 people are using crappy arguments on the other side. One of the biggest problems with rational debates on this forum is that there are like 8 people running around intentionally(and often preemptively) displaying what they consider to be the worst traits of people like carv. You guys are letting him lower your bar for debating when the goal should instead be to find a way to raise his. And don't get me wrong because that's an easy trap to fall into, I used to find myself doing it far more often than I was comfortable with way back when I actually invested myself in these discussions. But it's a mistake that it best avoided.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Ok.

So back to the point in hand.

BM firing antimatter is no surefire way for him to win