Dooku and Maul vs ROTS Anakin and ROTS Obi Wan

Started by DARTH POWER8 pages

Sidious 66 our posts are getting ridiculously long.. So lets not babble nonesense and stick to a couple of main points.

You serioulsy think Yoda is arrogant?? Yoda the wisest of all jedi??

You'd honestly rather believe that than seeing Dooku as a challenge for Yoda wuld'nt you??

Look we both agree Yoda is greater than Dooku. Yoda > Dooku? Hell yeah. Yoda >>> Dooku? Nah I dnt believe that. Especially not in the Force. This is the guy who disposed of Obi-wan Kenobi with a mere flick of his wrist, while simultaneously kicking the chosen one half way across the room and onto his butt.

The quote from Dooku's profile clearly says it was a "titanic force struggle", so they both struggled in the Force fight.

Although I am willing to admit there is a greater difference in them in Saber Duelling, as according to the novel Yoda had Dooku skipping back desperately. But still all credit to Dooku for defending against the fastest and most powerful jedi for as long as he did.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's not wrote any of the EU. Not created it, not wrote it. Heck I bet he's not even flicked through it. So why would he care?! He's just made more money from it! Our money! But U know that poor guy can use an extra few dollars.

Even within the material with which he has influenced either firsthand or secondhand (i.e. novels, the CN Clone Wars series, the Clone Wars mini, TFU), corruption has crept in due to his greed and dumbassery.

Yoda did make the mistake of not finishing Sidious when he had him at his mercy after disarming him... Huge tactical error there.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious 66 our posts are getting ridiculously long.. So lets not babble nonesense and stick to a couple of main points.

You serioulsy think Yoda is arrogant?? Yoda the wisest of all jedi??

You'd honestly rather believe that than seeing Dooku as a challenge for Yoda wuld'nt you??

Look we both agree Yoda is greater than Dooku. Yoda > Dooku? Hell yeah. Yoda >>> Dooku? Nah I dnt believe that. Especially not in the Force. This is the guy who disposed of Obi-wan Kenobi with a mere flick of his wrist, while simultaneously kicking the chosen one half way across the room and onto his butt.

The quote from Dooku's profile clearly says it was a "titanic force struggle", so they both struggled in the Force fight.

Although I am willing to admit there is a greater difference in them in Saber Duelling, as according to the novel Yoda had Dooku skipping back desperately. But still all credit to Dooku for defending against the fastest and most powerful jedi for as long as he did.

Yes Yoda is very arrogant. That does not mean he is unwise, he is just very overconfident in his abilities. A good example of his arrogance is when he gave Ventress her sabers back instead of just finishing her off and taking her in when he had the chance.

And yes I believe Dooku is a challenge for Yoda. But giving someone a challenge does not make you close to that person's level. AOTC Anakin gave Dooku a bit of a struggle. Dooku did not just wave his hand and take him out. So would you say AOTC Anakin is close to Dooku's level?

Now before you start ranting and raving, no I am not saying the gap between Yoda and Dooku is as big as the gap between Dooku and AOTC Anakin. I am just making a point.

It's obvious you are a fan of Dooku. I'm not trying to down him or anything. He is a very powerful force user and one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in jedi and sith history.

You should take a look at the Savage Opress thread posted by Galan007 in the EU forums. Both Dooku and Savage's upcoming feats are quite impressive.

Originally posted by truejedi
Yoda did make the mistake of not finishing Sidious when he had him at his mercy after disarming him... Huge tactical error there.

Is that Canon? LOL.. Im getting fed up of working out whats canon and whats not!

It's in the script, which is within G-canon. Yoda disarmed Palpatine and then just, backed off for some reason.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

It's obvious you are a fan of Dooku. I'm not trying to down him or anything. He is a very powerful force user and one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in jedi and sith history.

You should take a look at the Savage Opress thread posted by Galan007 in the EU forums. Both Dooku and Savage's upcoming feats are quite impressive.

Im a big fan of ALL Sidious's apprentices.. Maul, Dooku and Vader.. They're all awsome! Not sexually frustrated tools like the jedi! But also not creepy old men like Sidious. Lol

And yes I cant wait for the Savage Opress episode. I think it will show us just how powerful Dooku, and possibly Maul really were.

Btw AOTC Anakin with 2 sabers was a threat to Dooku (in sabers).. The novel made that clear. Anakin has always been a threat to Dooku in Sabers only.

But all the quotes shows Yoda struggles against Dooku, and was exhausted. His own face expressions and breathing also shows that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Im a big fan of ALL Sidious's apprentices.. Maul, Dooku and Vader.. They're all awsome! Not sexually frustrated tools like the jedi! But also not creepy old men like Sidious. Lol

Seconded.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yes I cant wait for the Savage Opress episode. I think it will show us just how powerful Dooku, and possibly Maul really were.

Savage ain’t Maul. For once, they have totally different hair style.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But all the quotes shows Yoda struggles against Dooku, and was exhausted. His own face expressions and breathing also shows that.

Yoda looks exhausted when just walking, that's a moot point.

Originally posted by axel_jovan

Savage ain’t Maul. For once, they have totally different hair style.

I know. But they will say stuff about Maul. So will just have to see. And in terms of Force potential, Physical strength, speed they shold be similar. Thats why Dooku is interested in Savage in the first place. But like I said we'll see.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Yoda looks exhausted when just walking, that's a moot point.

Not when its backed up by the novel, which states Yoda was exhausted after their fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Btw AOTC Anakin with 2 sabers was a threat to Dooku (in sabers).. The novel made that clear. Anakin has always been a threat to Dooku in Sabers only.
No, it didn't make that clear. It made clear that Anakin was a challenge for Dooku. It notes Obi-Wan's admiration at Anakin's technical skills, but it also notes Dooku's "impossibly fast" reflexes in countering him. Not once is Dooku describe in any danger that he didn't easily counter. The only time it comes close is at the beginning when Anakin uses the Force to throw up an invisible wall blocking Dooku from leaving.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But all the quotes shows Yoda struggles against Dooku, and was exhausted. His own face expressions and breathing also shows that.
Again, no it doesn't. All the quotes show he held the upper hand clearly throughout the entire duel, and Dooku was becoming more and more frustrated at his inability to do anything about it:

"Dooku went into a wild flurry, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan and Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide."

"With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow from him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.
Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.
"

The entire duel is written like this. Dooku isn't given a single edge or advantage or moment of victory. And then he retreats. And then Yoda's called "exhausted". 🙄

And if someone has Dark Rendezvous handy, I believe that even on Vjun, with its natural Darkness flowing through Dooku, he still couldn't defeat Yoda.


"Dooku went into a wild flurry, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan and Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide."

This is obviously non-canon btw.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Again, no it doesn't. All the quotes show he held the upper hand clearly throughout the entire duel, and Dooku was becoming more and more frustrated at his inability to do anything about it:

"Dooku went into a wild flurry, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan and Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide."

"With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow from him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.
Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.
"

Well you've missed Yoda's first attack where it says despite Yoda's ferocious attack "Dooku held strong though, his red blade parrying brilliantly.."

Not that it matters because iv already said the difference between them is more significant in the sabers department.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The entire duel is written like this. Dooku isn't given a single edge or advantage or moment of victory. And then he retreats. And then Yoda's called "exhausted". 🙄

Which shows that yeah Yoda was showing himself to be considerably ahead of Dooku in Sabers, but jumping around dominating Dooku did "Exhaust" him.

And it even though Yoda was going to win, it was taking him some time to get past Dooku's defences, which made Dooku later believe in DR that he and Yoda were equal on Vjun, and made Yoda admit in Schism that after his fight with Dooku he doesnt need any Saber practice for a while.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And if someone has Dark Rendezvous handy, I believe that even on Vjun, with its natural Darkness flowing through Dooku, he still couldn't defeat Yoda.

Thats true. But they didnt have a Force fight on Vjun. Only a Saber fight, which was much much closer there: "Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave ground.." And people seem to miss the fact that the darkness of Vjun was also making Yoda much more fierce than he usually is. And Yoda admitted there he was going for the the kill.

If I recall correctly, Yoda went there on the false pretense (from Dooku) of diplomacy. And although Yoda knew that there was a great possibility of treachery, he went anyways, with the intention of turning Dooku away from the darkside. I wish I still had the novel on hand, but I've read that scene a dozen times or more, and do not recall Yoda going there to "kill" Dooku. I do however recall Yoda saying something like "love you enough to kill you, I do." However, I seem to recall interpreting that in a way that doesn't necessarily mean he was TRYING to Kill Dooku. As amatter of fact, it seems (and I could be wrong) that at the end of their duel, Yoda is once again trying to capture Dooku. Does anyone have the entire section from their duel available to post?

In the entryway, Whirry was shifting from foot to foot in extremes of agitation.

"Please, Master! Don't let the Jedi steal my Baby again! Do something for me, for all my hard work, Master?"

Dooku glanced up.

"Do something for you?" His eyes flicked to Yoda and the lightsaber at the Jedi Master's belt. "Of course I'll do something for you."

With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock.

"You might want to help her," Dooku said.

With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.

"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.

"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."

"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.

Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.

"Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to. "

Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.

"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.

"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.

Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in. Yoda cocked his head.

"A choice made, have you, Count?"

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."

Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.

"So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."

Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.

"Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"

And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux.

With a snort, Yoda turned his eyes to the sky and picked out the glowing dot racing in from the horizon. Below him, Dooku landed softly on the ground and melted into the rose gardens. The missile was coming in with terrible speed and power: too much coming at Yoda too fast ever to wholly stop it, even if he had time and perfect peace. But he reached out to pull up the Force binding even Vjun's bitter green moss and twisted thorn-trees, and let it flow through him like a wind: the breath of a world, gathered and released in a push-feather game with all their lives on the line, not to oppose the missile's force with force, but to touch it gently on the side-just enough to send it screaming by the broken window casement to plunge a kilometer offshore into the cold and waiting sea. A long instant later, water fountained from the ocean in a blaze of light three hundred meters tall, and then fell back. The chateau and all those inside it had been spared: but Dooku was gone.

Moments later, Yoda trotted down into what had once been the great entryway of Chateau Malreaux, now a shattered and smoking ruin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not when its backed up by the novel, which states Yoda was exhausted after their fight.

I think Lord Lucien already covered that point well.

Let me get this straight, you're saying that because Yoda "looked” exhausted and it was mentioned in the novel, then the comparison of Yoda’s and Dooku’s power is....what?
You already agreed that Yoda > Dooku in sabers, and even on Vjun, which gives advantage to darksiders, still Yoda > Dooku in sabers.
Also, I think that this stands, that Yoda > Dooku in the force, simply by watching AotC.
So, indeed maybe overall Yoda is not >>> Dooku,
but he is firmly > Dooku.
He will defeat Dooku, but not easily as in Yoda’s incapacitating Ventress .

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
If I recall correctly, Yoda went there on the false pretense (from Dooku) of diplomacy. And although Yoda knew that there was a great possibility of treachery, he went anyways, with the intention of turning Dooku away from the darkside. I wish I still had the novel on hand, but I've read that scene a dozen times or more, and do not recall Yoda going there to "kill" Dooku. I do however recall Yoda saying something like "love you enough to kill you, I do." However, I seem to recall interpreting that in a way that doesn't necessarily mean he was TRYING to Kill Dooku. As amatter of fact, it seems (and I could be wrong) that at the end of their duel, Yoda is once again trying to capture Dooku. Does anyone have the entire section from their duel available to post?

"But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."

So Dooku also did not go for the kill at that point. But they both made it clear that they were "willing" to kill.

This was Yoda confirming that: "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Note the "even here" meaning he was also willing to kill Dooku on Geonosis. Loves him enough, yes, loves a former jedi enough to give them the sweet release of death after joining the dark side, is what that sounds like to me.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I think Lord Lucien already covered that point well.

Let me get this straight, you're saying that because Yoda "looked” exhausted and it was mentioned in the novel, then the comparison of Yoda’s and Dooku’s power is....what?

He "looked" exhausted just like the force fight "looked" to you like Yoda was greater, (Im not arguing that but I would question how much greater considering the fight didnt get anywhere in the force fight and was switched to Sabers.), AND the novel confirms Yoda was exhausted, AND Dooku remembers him being Yoda's equal in that fight, AND Yoda claims in Schism he had enough Saber practice with Dooku which was good enough practice for him for a long while.

So yes Yoda was winning the fight and was greater, but all that confirms it was a difficult fight for Yoda.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
You already agreed that Yoda > Dooku in sabers, and even on Vjun, which gives advantage to darksiders, still Yoda > Dooku in sabers.

"and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold."

As you can see the dark air of Vjun also made Yoda more fierce than ever. And it was clearly a much closer Saber fight there.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
So, indeed maybe overall Yoda is not >>> Dooku,
but he is firmly > Dooku.
He will defeat Dooku, but not easily as in Yoda’s incapacitating Ventress .

Oh Ventress was ridiculously easy for Yoda. Although Dooku's dominance over Kenobi does come close to that. Well we agree Yoda > Dooku, but not >>> And that Dooku does pose a challenge to him. So this is really just a debate about How Much of a Challenge Dooku poses.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
AND Dooku remembers him being Yoda's equal in that fight,

Dooku is a fool.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
AND Yoda claims in Schism he had enough Saber practice with Dooku which was good enough practice for him for a long while.

He fought one of the greatest duelists ever, that seems enough practice indeed.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So yes Yoda was winning the fight and was greater, but all that confirms it was a difficult fight for Yoda.

k.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
"and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold."
As you can see the dark air of Vjun also made Yoda more fierce than ever. And it was clearly a much closer Saber fight there.

Though it did not boost his power as it did to Dooku

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well we agree Yoda > Dooku, but not >>> And that Dooku does pose a challenge to him. So this is really just a debate about How Much of a Challenge Dooku poses.

k. I can see your point. Well Dooku is one of the most powerful sith lords ever so he obviously poses a challenge to anyone, maybe except FotJ Luke.

From the books and the movie, the way I think of it as like this

Relative to dooku and sidious for this comparison

Force powers
Yoda - 10
Dookus - 10

Sabers
Yoda - 9
Dooku - 8

Originally posted by Board Walker
From the books and the movie, the way I think of it as like this

Relative to dooku and sidious for this comparison

Force powers
Yoda - 10
Dookus - 10

Sabers
Yoda - 9
Dooku - 8

Maybe it's because you said it weird, but... are you putting Yoda on Dooku's level? Cuz if you are, you're putting the same Jedi Master who stymied Palpatine's Lightning barrage on the same level as Dooku--who feared and worshiped Sidious. The same Jedi master who out-did Dooku twice. And they're on the same level?