Kas'sim was the best. Its indisputable. He taught all of the Sith students on Korriban everything they knew. Bane refers to all of those students as "weak" several times, simply because of how bad they were in relation to Kas'sim.
Don't forget, Kas'sim was the SINGLE GREATEST swordsman in the Army of Darkness!!! That Army was very powerful and accomplished lots of feats and accolades to be specific. If Kas'sim was the best the Army had, he clearly has more skill than any old Yoda.
God, I f*cking hate Yoda! Always raining on everyone's parade with his stupid face and backwards f*cking language. Little shit can't hold a candle to Kas'im the Magnificent, let alone a lightsaber.
On a similar note, I propose that Kas'im be referred to by his proper, and hard earned title, the Magnificent.
Originally posted by truejedi
Kas'sim the Magnificent is faster than a blur. Therefore Sidious, being merely a blur, pales in comparison. (as does therefore Yoda, making it pertinent to this thread.)
What the hell are you talking about, Sidious has more facts supporting his clear superiority over Kas'im and Yoda has quo... oooooh, I see what you did there.
Btw, you misspelled Kas'im his name. Absolute and utter blasphemy.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
You guys have been reported. 🙂"Now I know that some naysayers will point out that Yoda was also a master of all 7 forms, and so was Mace, and Cin Drallig, and a bunches of other throughout Star Wars..."
Complete and utter falsehood.
You have also been reported. And justly, considering we are on the same side.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Takai, would you say that saying "a 6 sided die would almost certainly not land on 6 six times in a row" is a subjective opinion, out of curiosity?
That has nothing to do with an opinionated statement where you say that Yoda's proficiency has to be "pretty low" by RotS. See the difference? If not, then I don't know what else to say. See you keep wanting to throw around probability, but really, there's no way for you to calculate how far, if any, Yoda's proficiency has declined. Therefore, it is a subjective statement. There is NOTHING AT ALL objective about it. You see, objective statements are based on FACT, and as such can be measured against a set of facts, whereas you have no FACTS to back up your claim that Yoda's proficiency is Ataru "pretty low". See how that works?
Especially considering it is fiction. Considering the abnormal happens repeatedly in fiction, there is nothing wrong with wanting proof of someone's opinion.
Someone who has the opinion that: "Yoda continued to improve with a lightsaber right up until his duel with Sidious, so he was at the peak of his powers in that duel." would have just as much right to that opinion as yours. Without that proof either way, there is no way to debate it to a conclusion.
Well what I was actually saying was that the strong likelihood is that Yoda's skills would have declined due to his lack of regular practise by RotS. Not that I'm claiming to have done this, but to actually truly work out the probability of such a scenario, formulaic data collection and probability models would be devised and a value would be calculated. That is how probability works. It's an entirely objective process, there isn't any room for personal opinion. Now again, I didn't exactly do that, namely because I'm nowhere near as well learned in statistics as I would need to be, but also because it's not nesseccary. It's a commonly known fact that in most cases, anybody who trains at something heavily founded on technique, but stops practising regularly with it, will lose familiarity with it, simply due to how the memory works. That we're dealing with a fictional world with such things as alien species and such as thing as The Force does adjust the probability with respect to our real world, but given that the character and his species involved aren't portrayed to function any different and the fact that the species, or the general level of technology and what we know about the Force, do not document anything that would amplify a being's memory capabilities, the likelihood remains that his skills would have declined drastically due to how limited his practise with the weapon was.
But the fact remains that it is not a subjective opinion. What about this Takai: "the average Jedi Master would in all likelihood defeat the average Jedi Youngling in a combat scenario" - subjective or objective?
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well what I was actually saying was that the strong likelihood is that Yoda's skills would have declined due to his lack of regular practise by RotS. Not that I'm claiming to have done this, but to actually truly work out the probability of such a scenario, formulaic data collection and probability models would be devised and a value would be calculated. That is how probability works. It's an entirely objective process, there isn't any room for personal opinion. Now again, I didn't exactly do that, namely because I'm nowhere near as well learned in statistics as I would need to be, but also because it's not nesseccary. It's a commonly known fact that in most cases, anybody who trains at something heavily founded on technique, but stops practising regularly with it, will lose familiarity with it, simply due to how the memory works. That we're dealing with a fictional world with such things as alien species and such as thing as The Force does adjust the probability with respect to our real world, but given that the character and his species involved aren't portrayed to function any different and the fact that the species, or the general level of technology and what we know about the Force, do not document anything that would amplify a being's memory capabilities, the likelihood remains that his skills would have declined drastically due to how limited his practise with the weapon was.
It's not likely that his skills have declined drastically. The general assumption is that Yoda is at his peak during RotS, not a time before that. I don't see Yoda beating Sidious when he had just finished his lightsaber training.
but given that the character and his species involved aren't portrayed to function any different
How many humans do you know that have reached over 800 years of age? Even so, not every human just loses his skills drastically due to limited practise.
"The general assumption is that Yoda is at his peak during RotS, not a time before that."
In the Force, perhaps. I see no reason to assume that the same applies with his lightsaber ability, especially given that we know he was largely out of practise with the weapon.
"How many humans do you know that have reached over 800 years of age? Even so, not every human just loses his skills drastically due to limited practise."
I meant in a manner that relates to his memory. And it'd be rare for a human not to.
Well in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook (under his character section) it said that nobody in the temple had ever seen him hold a lightsaber indicating that he didn't spar with any of the other Jedi, at least at the time that the statement was in reference to (though the databank does credit him with a victory over Mace Windu, so if we accept it as a canon statement we have to assume that they may have sparred afterwards).
In Jedi: Mace Windu, during the Clone Wars has began, a Jedi asks him if he wished to spar and Yoda responds by saying his practise with Dooku was sufficient, in reference to a battle that occured months earlier, indicating that even in the war, up to that point in time, he still didn't spar with the other Jedi.
In Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, within the first chapter, it's stated that as Grandmaster of the Order, he rarely left the Temple, and we know that when he did participate in the war, it was largely as a Jedi General and not directly in the combat, where even when it was, he would have also had access to his Force Powers, and would have been using his lightsaber against enemies that function compeltely differently to opponent swordsmen.
Essentially, his experience against swordsmen type opponent was in all likelihood limited to his duels with Dooku during the war, and a very limited number of sparring matches against the other Jedi, and his general war experience, which wouldn't have call upon practise with the weapon against sword wielding enemies, would have been very limited, both in comparison to the other Jedi as well as in comparison to the time he spent in the temple or as a general.
Ultimately I'm lead to believe that his technique by RotS wouldn't have been great, especially next to Kas'im's phenomenal ability, and I don't even know if I'd say he was that powerful either. Throwing debris around and moving at flashy speeds is good by a certain standard and clearly what the films are trying to show you were exceptional at the time, but I think even there Kas'im outperforms him in his defence against Bane's Force Wave and ability to keep up with him in combat.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
In Jedi: Mace Windu, during the Clone Wars has began, a Jedi asks him if he wished to spar and Yoda responds by saying his practise with Dooku was sufficient, in reference to a battle that occured months earlier, indicating that even in the war, up to that point in time, he still didn't spar with the other Jedi.
That was in Schism approx somwhere between a month and ten weeks after AOTC. It was Mace Windu who asked Yoda if he wanted to spar.
Yoda's response suggested to me that he didnt NEED any practise. If his saber skills were degrading when theyre in the middle of a war, and they know Sith Lords are back and Yoda is the most powerful jedi to take on a Sith Lord, then surely Yoda would have felt there was a need for him to practise more.
Clearly he felt after his fight with Dooku that he was still on form with his saber skills.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
and I don't even know if I'd say he was that powerful either. Throwing debris around and moving at flashy speeds is good by a certain standard and clearly what the films are trying to show you were exceptional at the time, but I think even there Kas'im outperforms him in his defence against Bane's Force Wave and ability to keep up with him in combat.
We know he had the highest potential of all jedis at the time bar anakin (form obi-wans statement in TPM when checking Anakin's blood count).
And we know he had the highest mastery of the force of all the jedis of that time period at least. In fact who would have a higher mastery of the force than the 800 year old grand master of the order whose taught jedis for centuries??
Do you think Bane or Kasim would have a greater mastery of the force?? Is it likely either of them would have more force potential than Yoda??
The only reason I could possibly think that Yoda wasnt as powerful as he could be is that he was old.. Going to die in another 22 years. Not long when youve lived 800.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That was in Schism approx somwhere between a month and ten weeks after AOTC. It was Mace Windu who asked Yoda if he wanted to spar.Yoda's response suggested to me that he didnt NEED any practise. If his saber skills were degrading when theyre in the middle of a war, and they know Sith Lords are back and Yoda is the most powerful jedi to take on a Sith Lord, then surely Yoda would have felt there was a need for him to practise more.
Clearly he felt after his fight with Dooku that he was still on form with his saber skills.
I think it's far more likely that he simply felt that he didn't need to be skilled with a lightsaber simply because he was so much faster and more agile than everyone, maybe to him, he could conceivably face. I still think what we know about what happens when you stop practising regularly outweighs whatever reason he might have felt he didn;t need it.
We know he had the highest potential of all jedis at the time bar anakin (form obi-wans statement in TPM when checking Anakin's blood count).
I'm not so sure tbh. I think Obi-Wan was in a position to know that the count was off the charts, was understandably perplexed, and as a point of emphasis listed someone who at the time he most associated with power over the Force as someone who not even had that much strength in the Force, rather then being necessarily immediately aware of Yoda's midi-chlorian count and identifying that as the greatest at the time among the other Jedi in saying it.
And we know he had the highest mastery of the force of all the jedis of that time period at least. In fact who would have a higher mastery of the force than the 800 year old grand master of the order whose taught jedis for centuries??
The likelihood is that he did given his age, though there is learning rate and again level of practise to consider. A person could have a certain capacity of mastery over the Force that Yoda may have reached many years ago.
Do you think Bane or Kasim would have a greater mastery of the force??
Bane was a natural who had already displayed the ability to learn at a ridiculous rate and master abilities within moments after first learning them. He was also extremely dedicated and spent every waking moment improving himself. it's possible that his mastery eclipsed Yoda's. Kas'im - unlikely, given his focus was on lightsaber combat, and he can;t be said to have been extraordinarily gifted or anything in the department.
Is it likely either of them would have more force potential than Yoda??
Kas'im? Maybe not.
Bane? Almost certainly. He progresses at a ridiculous rate and is already more powerful than Yoda by the point in time he faces Kas'im which is after a mere year or so of training, by virtue of his feats, at least (creating a storm of lightning that filled a hall capable of housing hundreds, collapsing a temple with a portion of his TK attack, moving faster than the eyes of trained Force Users could see etc.). He later grows to ridiculous heights, to the point where he's capable of chanelling Force lightning that's powerful enough to destory the entire planet of Ruusan. There's almost no question in my mind that Bane's potential easily eclipsed Yoda's.
The only reason I could possibly think that Yoda wasnt as powerful as he could be is that he was old.. Going to die in another 22 years. Not long when youve lived 800.
That's also possible... either way Kas'im's Force assisted lightsaber abilities have impressed me more than Yoda's, regardless of the reason.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
What about this Takai: "the average Jedi Master would in all likelihood defeat the average Jedi Youngling in a combat scenario" - subjective or objective?
Subjective in that the mentioned conditions are not "mind-independent"—that is, not the result of any judgements made by a conscious entity or subject. You need data to measure the claim against. i.e. John Mc****tard called off work 14 times last year - That statement is objective because we're basing everything on the data available. No opinions are being made, only hard facts. On the reverse side; saying that John isn't reliable because he misses alot of work is subjective, because an opinion is being given. Once an opinion or judgement is given, it becomes subjective. Now, that's NOT to say that subjective statements are cannot be true, only that they don't hold up very well in an official manner, especially in this type of setting. It can be a fine line when not knowing what constitues objectivity/subjectivity, but for those who do know, it makes all the sense in the world.
It can be a fine line when not knowing what constitues objectivity/subjectivity, but for those who do know, it makes all the sense in the world.
🙄
Probability, when applied correctly, is mind-independent.
Hypothetical (and a simplistic) example:
Out of 1000 undefined masters of different martial arts who stop training for an entire year, 999 of them are no longer familiar with their art.
This is the only data available.
Thus, the probability that a random individual, who having once been a master of a martial art, and then stops practising in it for an entire year, will no longer be familiar with it is 0.999 or 99.9%
That is an objective, mind-independant application of probability - the only correct way it can be applied.
Obviously it's a more simple example, but the same's the case here. If anything I may be wrong. Objectively wrong. But I am not listing a subjective opinion. I am either objectviely wrong or right.