Poll
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Re: Saber contest - Master Yoda vs Kas'im
Originally posted by
Jinsoku Takai: 7
Lightsaber duel - no other Force powers, except those which enhance one's lightsaber ability (i.e. precog, Force-speed, Force-enhanced agility, etc...).
Kas'im takes it with the main contributing factor being his vastly superior technique.
Originally posted by
Slash_KMC: 4
Yoda takes it with the main contributing factor being his vastly superior speed, skills and years of training.
I don't believe any such vastly superior speed has been demonstrated, the skills appear to firmly be in Kas'im's court, and years of training is simply a means to an end, not an end in itself, and in this case it would appear that it contributed to the end (technique) in an insignificant manner given Yoda's relative lack of practise by the PT and what appears to be a relative lack of complete, overall ability, next to Kas'im's mastery of every form.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
I don't believe any such vastly superior speed has been demonstrated,
No? He was able to more than just keep up with the strongest Sith Lord ever who briefly before blitzkrieged some of the Order's best.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
the skills appear to firmly be in Kas'im's court,
Yoda's skill are above those of Dooku, the master of duelling.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
and years of training is simply a means to an end, not an end in itself, and in this case it would appear that it contributed to the end (technique) in an insignificant manner given Yoda's relative lack of practise by the PT and what appears to be a relative lack of complete, overall ability, next to Kas'im's mastery of every form.
How is 800 years of lightsaber training not an advantage? I suppose this is Yoda as of RotS who had just been in the greatest war the galaxy had ever known. How exactly does Yoda lack practice when he is in a constant combat situation?
Yoda lacks complete overall ability? Are we talking about the same most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known?
How is Kas'im's mastery of every form an advantage when Yoda himself has mastered every form?
Originally posted by
Slash_KMC: 4
No? He was able to more than just keep up with the strongest Sith Lord ever who briefly before blitzkrieged some of the Order's best.
And by the same token Kas'im has no problem being able to at least move fast enough to meet Darth Bane's attacks head on, who himself showed domination over relatively impressive Force Users in the speed department, such as when he moved fast enough to perform a combination against someone as powerful as a prepared and battle engaged Sirak (regarded as the most powerful student at the Academy; the students themselves were regarded as the most powerful Force Users in the order) with a physical description indicative of the greatest display of speed we've ever seen. The point being, both combatants have demonstrated the capacity to operate in a realm of speed that would overwhelm lesser but still powerful Force Users. You still haven't brought any evidence to the table that would suggest that Yoda has a vast speed advantage, or even an advantage at all.
Yoda's skill are above those of Dooku, the master of duelling.
Nothing suggest that Dooku even slightly compares to Kas'im either, and it hasn't been demonstrated that Yoda's even the more skilled of the two of them.
How is 800 years of lightsaber training not an advantage?
It's not a direct advantage, it's a means to an end; the end in question is realised by more than just that mean.
I suppose this is Yoda as of RotS who had just been in the greatest war the galaxy had ever known. How exactly does Yoda lack practice when he is in a constant combat situation?
Well for one, it's noted that not a single Jedi in the temple had ever seen him hold a lightsaber around the time of TPM (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, under his section), clearly indicating that he didn't spar with the other Jedi, and that he didn't value such a level of practise to partake in it, at least at that point in time. Secondly, months into the Clone Wars, when asked by another Jedi whether he wanted to spar with him, he replies saying that his battle with Dooku (AotC) was practise enough (this is in Jedi: Mace Windu), clearly indicating that his stance on the matter hadn't especially changed. Lastly, in Dark Rendezvous, it's noted that he and Mace Windu rarely left the temple, even with all the battles being waged around them, and for the battles that he did take part in, one of the roles he largely played was that of a general, not necessarily even calling his combat ability to battle, and even when he did directly participate, he still had his Force abilities to fall back on, and what lightsaber action he did see, would, with rare exception, be against a type of enemy that functions completely different from a swordsman, and as such his skills, as far as how they pertain to a lightsaber duel, likely wouldn't have been tested at all, save for the random duels he took part in against other Force Users such as Dooku in Dark Rendezvous.
The point being, his more recent training and experience doesn't speak very well to how skilled he would be at the point in time in question.
Yoda lacks complete overall ability?
As far as all evidence suggests that he specialised in a single form and rarely practised his skills, that would be what it seems, yes.
Are we talking about the same most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known?
Something that isn't necessarily true, and could be indicative of a number of things.
How is Kas'im's mastery of every form an advantage when Yoda himself has mastered every form?
It's never been demonstrated that Yoda's even come close to mastering all seven forms, and all evidence on the matter would suggest that his level of mastery by the time of RotS would be largely lacking.
Kas'im on the other hand, not only mastered every form, but spent hours every day maintaining and improving his skills until his very death. On paper, his technical ability is more complete and versatile than Yoda's, he's more immediately familiar with the moves and combinations he'll be bringing to the table, and not only can Yoda not be said to possess anything in his arsenal that Kas'im won't be prepared for, but it's likely that he'll be unfamiliar with a large portion of what Kas'im can immediately bring.
"Bane was kicking Kasim's ass until he used a strange style to him. How would Kasim hold more then 30 seconds against yoda, I don't know..."
The fact that it's likely Bane was better than Yoda, Kas'im could also use a strange style to Yoda, and that Yoda wouldn't be as prepared against Kas'im or with the terrain as Bane had been? Among numerous other reasons of course...
"Well for one, it's noted that not a single Jedi in the temple had ever seen him hold a lightsaber around the time of TPM (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, under his section)"
Really? I guess his sparring matches w/ Mace Windu and Count Dooku never happened then.
"Something that isn't necessarily true, and could be indicative of a number of things."
According to the narrative, it's true. But I suppose your opinion trumps that, right?
Regarding Yoda's sparring matches with Mace Windu and Count Dooku, I'm open to the possibility that the sparring match with Mace Windu took place after the point in time to which the quote relates, and that Count Dooku was no longer a Jedi at the same given point in time, meaning there's no necessary clash between the sources, and even if there were, and we had to evaluate which fits into the greater continuity more aptly, we could consider the superior number of sources that point to Yoda's lack of current practise with the weapon, as well as the idea that he once sparred with both Mace Windu and Count Dooku not establishing anything to the contrary.
Is that supposed to offend me? I've read books written by the likes of Stephen King, H.P. Lovecraft and Arthur C. Clarke. In the grand scheme of things, the Bane books suck, and epically so. They're still better than the vast majority of the Star Wars EU, however, and Bane is one of the better characters.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Regarding Yoda's sparring matches with Mace Windu and Count Dooku, I'm open to the possibility that the sparring match with Mace Windu took place after the point in time to which the quote relates, and that Count Dooku was no longer a Jedi at the same given point in time, meaning there's no necessary clash between the sources, and even if there were, and we had to evaluate which fits into the greater continuity more aptly, we could consider the superior number of sources that point to Yoda's lack of current practise with the weapon, as well as the idea that he once sparred with both Mace Windu and Count Dooku not establishing anything to the contrary.
Dooku was a Jedi at the time they sparred (multiple times). As for Windu, yes, it's a possibility. Now, regarding your multiple sources; be more specific with regards to name, author, etc. How do said sources fit into the SW canon?
No, I was saying that Dooku may not have been a Jedi at the point in time the quote saying that no Jedi in the temple had ever seen him with a lightsaber referred to.
Jedi: Mace Windu, within the first ten pages. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, within the first chapter. Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, under Yoda's section.
It's hard to say how exactly they fit into the wider SW canon, but given the quantity of the sources essentially stating the same thing, it appears to be the picture being painted, and the most likely truth is that as of RotS Yoda's recent training and experience with a lightsaber was pretty poor, especially next to Kas'im's.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
I don't believe any such vastly superior speed has been demonstrated, the skills appear to firmly be in Kas'im's court, and years of training is simply a means to an end, not an end in itself, and in this case it would appear that it contributed to the end (technique) in an insignificant manner given Yoda's relative lack of practise by the PT and what appears to be a relative lack of complete, overall ability, next to Kas'im's mastery of every form.
please list for me the notable people Kas'im has beaten in a duel
Lovecraft is a good storyteller but a terrible writer. This quote from Lin Carter is probably my favorite quote about Lovecraft ever.
"He has no ability at all for creating character, or for writing dialogue. His prose is stilted, artificial, affected. It is also very overwritten, verbose, and swimming in adjectives. His plotting is frequently mechanical, and his major stylistic device, which becomes tiresome, is the simple trick of withholding the final revelation until the terminal sentence--and then printing it in italics, presumably for maximum shock value."
And lets face it, one can only read they word "cyclopean" so many times before bashing their head into their euclidean desk.