Saber contest - Master Yoda vs Kas'im

Started by Jinsoku Takai9 pages

Originally posted by NCRotCA
🙄

Out of 1000 undefined masters of different martial arts who stop training for an entire year, 999 of them are no longer familiar with their art.

This is the only data available.

Thus, the probability that a random individual, who having once been a master of a martial art, and then stops practising in it for an entire year, will no longer be familiar with it is 0.999 or 99.9%

FINALLY you get it!! Well sort of. The word familiar kind of messes things up a little. But you're on the right path. See, in that last statement, you gave specifics, and nothing more - thereby making it an objective statement. See how that works. Now, in your prior statements, you DIDN'T base EVERYTHING on data. As amatter of fact, I don't remember a single shred of data. Even so, once you interject an opinion, the statement becomes subjective.

OK, but what I'm saying is that I don't feel as if I have to apply it that precisely to know that the likelihood is that Yoda wasn't very familiar with the form at the time of RotS, because of his lack of practise with the weapon.

Wait, don't get me wrong, I'm still for Kas'sim the magnificent all the way, because he was an ancient Sith, and OMFG he blocked a wave from BANE!!!

But NCRotCa, are you seriously trying to base an argument for Kas'sim the Magnificent (KTM for short) on your own opinion of what Yoda's lightsaber abilities were like?

Why should any of us waste time with that? Yoda just got done fighting a 10 year WAR at the end of ROTS. He was in practice as any Jedi in millenia.

In the first Bane book, Kas'sim the Magnificent himself admits that he can never be as good as someone who is more powerful in the force (the example he gives is Bane). The force connection makes a lightsaber fighter more powerful.

Now i'm not saying Yoda is more powerful in the force than Kas'sim the Magnificent. Yoda only has smashed landing craft together, overpowered Sidious's lightning, and crashed two ships in flight into each other with a wave of his... (hands?)

kas'sim the magnificent, unfortunately stated that he wasn't as strong in the force as Bane the Ultimate. Now i'm not saying that Yoda is more powerful than Bane the Ultimate, because I'm not, but Yoda has stalemated the most powerful sith lord of all time, and Bane the Ultimate merely started an order that was supposed to improve with every generation...

So, if for some ridiculous reason, some idiot said that Kassim the Magnificent was weaker in the force than yoda, that same idiot would be able to point to the quote from Rise of Darkness and say "hey, this means Kas'sim the magnificent is not able to match Yoda with sabers, from Kas'sim the magnificent's own mouth!"

Originally posted by NCRotCA
In the Force, perhaps. I see no reason to assume that the same applies with his lightsaber ability, especially given that we know he was largely out of practise with the weapon.

You do know that duelling with a lightsaber is highly dependent on the Force right?

I meant in a manner that relates to his memory. And it'd be rare for a human not to.

What makes you think that a different species has the same memory as a human? Especially one that has so many characteristics different from humans.

The Force also plays a large part in why you can't put humans on the same page as Yoda. Using the Force is based quite a lot on instinct, certain skills of a Force user are natural, they don't need practise to be skilled at something. Little Anakin wasn't relying on his years of practise to win the Pod Race and Yoda in particular was second to only Anakin in... *cringes* midichlorian count.

Originally posted by truejedi
Wait, don't get me wrong, I'm still for Kas'sim the magnificent all the way, because he was an ancient Sith, and OMFG he blocked a wave from BANE!!!

But NCRotCa, are you seriously trying to base an argument for Kas'sim the Magnificent (KTM for short) on your own opinion of what Yoda's lightsaber abilities were like?

Why should any of us waste time with that? Yoda just got done fighting a 10 year WAR at the end of ROTS. He was in practice as any Jedi in millenia.

In the first Bane book, Kas'sim the Magnificent himself admits that he can never be as good as someone who is more powerful in the force (the example he gives is Bane). The force connection makes a lightsaber fighter more powerful.

Now i'm not saying Yoda is more powerful in the force than Kas'sim the Magnificent. Yoda only has smashed landing craft together, overpowered Sidious's lightning, and crashed two ships in flight into each other with a wave of his... (hands?)

kas'sim the magnificent, unfortunately stated that he wasn't as strong in the force as Bane the Ultimate. Now i'm not saying that Yoda is more powerful than Bane the Ultimate, because I'm not, but Yoda has stalemated the most powerful sith lord of all time, and Bane the Ultimate merely started an order that was supposed to improve with every generation...

So, if for some ridiculous reason, some idiot said that Kassim the Magnificent was weaker in the force than yoda, that same idiot would be able to point to the quote from Rise of Darkness and say "hey, this means Kas'sim the magnificent is not able to match Yoda with sabers, from Kas'sim the magnificent's own mouth!"

FYI:

In Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, within the first chapter, it's stated that as Grandmaster of the Order, he rarely left the Temple, and we know that when he did participate in the war, it was largely as a Jedi General and not directly in the combat, where even when it was, he would have also had access to his Force Powers, and would have been using his lightsaber against enemies that function compeltely differently to opponent swordsmen.

and

Well the fact remains that in the movies all that Yoda and Sidious are ever able to demonstrate are basic abilities like telekinesis and lightning on a relatively low scale, at times displaying real effort in doing so. The stuff they do outside of the movies around the same time period that aren't consistent with that showing of ability can for the most part be ignored as by their very nature, the further away you get from the movies, the more foggier the window into the fictional reality becomes, and anything that conflicts with what the movies depict can be considered to not be a true reflection of what actually takes place.

Also, that's not true, Kas'im outright states that a superior swordsman can defeat a superior Force User in a lightsaber battle; he states the the Force it the real key to victory in a confrontation but that it isn't so simple when you have to factor in differences in lightsaber ability.

And why you've taken what Bane was saying about the Sith growing stronger with each generation as being directly related to combat ability, I'll never know. The RoT defined strength, not as personal combatative power, but as the ability to plan, and put a plan into action using cunning.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You do know that duelling with a lightsaber is highly dependent on the Force right?

Yes, which is why I've taken it into consideration (I still maintain that the Force ability Yoda demonstrates in the movies (which includes demonstrated limitations) does little to put him on the same level, let alone a higher one, as Kas'im). However I'm taking every single factor into consideration, and as far as technique is concerned, by all available evidence, Yoda isn;t even in the same universe as Kas'im. It's not close.

What makes you think that a different species has the same memory as a human? Especially one that has so many characteristics different from humans.

Well memory has a pretty big impact on how you think and reason, and Yoda isn't demonstrated to act in such a manner any differently from a regular movie (ignoring his backward way of talking which is more of a language barrier).

The Force also plays a large part in why you can't put humans on the same page as Yoda. Using the Force is based quite a lot on instinct, certain skills of a Force user are natural, they don't need practise to be skilled at something. Little Anakin wasn't relying on his years of practise to win the Pod Race and Yoda in particular was second to only Anakin in... *cringes* midichlorian count.

Which is why I probably wouldn't make as big a deal out of it if we were talking about a Force ability. But technique is far more technical than instinctive, and the likelihood is that you'd need to regularly practise to maintain a high proficiency with the skill.

Yoda's lightsaber skills are wierd. I agree with you that it logically seems like his skills would have atrophied, and yet he apparantly (according to the ROTS script) disarmed Sidious. The same Sidious who Mace Pretty Much The Best Duelist In The Mythos Windu was unable to defeat in a straight up duel, having to rely on his shatterpoint ability to win.

I still think that would have been down more to superior Force assisted lightsaber abilities, both on Sidious's part with respect to Mace Windu, and Yoda's part with respect to Sidious, rather than a neccessarily certain level of technical ability.

Also not that I think that Yoda wasn't displaying superiority over Sidious in their lightsaber battle, but how canon is the stuff within the script that doesn't appear in the movie anyway? As the script is simply a tool for the production of the film, and not an outward representation of the story intended to be read by fans in itself, I think it can be discarded for the most part.

And I definitely can't say I feel as strongly about Mace Windu. While his mastery of Form 7 is great (given that it relies on high end mastery of multiple other forms), Kas'im's mastery of all forms and considerable time placed on improving his skills with each one following his masteyr of them places him a a few leagues higher than Windu, ial.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Yes, which is why I've taken it into consideration (I still maintain that the Force ability Yoda demonstrates in the movies (which includes demonstrated limitations) does little to put him on the same level, let alone a higher one, as Kas'im).[/B]

Yoda was the most powerful of all Jedi in all 6 movies... You may disregard the quotes saying so, but that doesn't mean they're not Canon. The universe in which Kas'im is portrayed is different than the movies in case you didn't know. You should look more at the context, compare Vaders greatest feat in the movies to everything else he does outside the movie universe. If Kas'im would have been in the movies, I'm sure he would've barely been able to lift an x-wing.

However I'm taking every single factor into consideration, and as far as technique is concerned, by all available evidence, Yoda isn;t even in the same universe as Kas'im. It's not close.[/B]

Technique didn't help Dooku a lot against Yoda. I'm sure Dooku's technique is more advance than Yoda's. But he still can't beat Yoda.

Well memory has a pretty big impact on how you think and reason, and Yoda isn't demonstrated to act in such a manner any differently from a regular movie (ignoring his backward way of talking which is more of a language barrier).[/B]

If you really want to compare Yoda to a regular human, then I can say for sure that he has demonstrated intelligence and wisdom above that of an average human. If you question his thinking and reasoning skills then you totally misunderstand the character.

Which is why I probably wouldn't make as big a deal out of it if we were talking about a Force ability. But technique is far more technical than instinctive, and the likelihood is that you'd need to regularly practise to maintain a high proficiency with the skill. [/B]

I'll use the example of Dooku again, who got owned by Anakin while Dooku is by far the most technically skilled. He still got disarmed by Anakin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda's lightsaber skills are wierd. I agree with you that it logically seems like his skills would have atrophied, and yet he apparantly (according to the ROTS script) disarmed Sidious. The same Sidious who Mace Pretty Much The Best Duelist In The Mythos Windu was unable to defeat in a straight up duel, having to rely on his shatterpoint ability to win.

Why is it logical that his skills have atrophied? Wouldn't it be logical that Sidious' skills have atrophied as well?

Also:

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
"In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him [Windu] in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective." - From Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

His skills with a lightsaber had been called second to none on the Council in Shadow Hunter.

Why would some say that Yoda is the Order's true master of lightsaber combat when he has never seen with a lightsaber in the temple?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Why is it logical that his skills have atrophied? Wouldn't it be logical that Sidious' skills have atrophied as well?

It would be, but since Mace Windu was unable to overcome him with pure swordsmanship, its somewhat unlikely.

Why would some say that Yoda is the Order's true master of lightsaber combat when he has never seen with a lightsaber in the temple?

People always hero-worship the Grandmaster figure in any order, especially when he's so much more likeable that the Mace-type guy.

OK I just reviewed Yoda's section in the PotJ Sourcebook, and the actual quote is:

"Yoda was opposed to unneccesary violence, and no one had seen his lightsaber in years." - Page 111. (It's from the perspective of the PT)

So people had seen him use a lightsaber, just not in years. So the fact remains that his current practise with the weapon was ial seevrely limted, and his reputation would have most likely been built up of what they had seen of him in the past. And bear in mind, saying that he was the "true master" of lightsaber combat isn't necessarily a direct reference to his technique.

The statement from SH, Slash, was that his skills on the Council remained second to none, "despite having slowed down in the years", meaning that, in this context, 'skill' is in reference to overall ability, as him having slowed down over the years would have had no bearing on his technique, making the use of the word "despite" nonsensical.

Damn, not just seen him use a lightsaber, no one had even seen him carry one in years. Not even seen it at all.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I still think that would have been down more to superior Force assisted lightsaber abilities, both on Sidious's part with respect to Mace Windu, and Yoda's part with respect to Sidious, rather than a neccessarily certain level of technical ability.

This: We make the fair assumption that Yoda and Kas'sim the Magnificent will both have access to the force how it pertains to lightsaber combat.

So i guess if you didn't realize that, that would be a reason why you are arguing for Kas'sim the Magnificent here.

If you want to say "No force at all" in the OP, then we have a technical skill only battle, and yes, Kas'sim the Magnificent is doubtlessly better there. He had to be to make up for his lack of force ability. (Which he did brilliantly, to the point of being an unstoppable beast)

'No force at all' Yoda would have a heart attack inside the first 30 seconds. 😬

Kinda unfair for an OP to do to the guy.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yoda was the most powerful of all Jedi in all 6 movies... You may disregard the quotes saying so, but that doesn't mean they're not Canon. The universe in which Kas'im is portrayed is different than the movies in case you didn't know. You should look more at the context, compare Vaders greatest feat in the movies to everything else he does outside the movie universe. If Kas'im would have been in the movies, I'm sure he would've barely been able to lift an x-wing.

While I do think that we can apply the increasing levels of foggy windows into the fictional reality to the EU that doesn't directly conflict with the movies, we still, firstly, have to take into account, that as it doesn't directly conflict with the movies, it's automatically of greater merit than the EU surrounding the movies that does.

Secondly, we can consider that the events that the Bane books depict represent pivotal moments and a pivotal war within the history of the entire Galaxy and the Force itself, that saw the rise of the Sith'ari: a being who's destiny and power, as it's described and the significance it has, is second really only to the Chosen One's.

Thirdly, we can then consider that in Kas'im, what we have is someone who represented the very greatest warrior of the most warlike Order of darksiders the Galaxy has ever known, who does demonstrate the ability to compete with the same Bane, who had been rising in power and realising his potential like nobody else, and who's character was based around the cocnept of a perfect swordsman and warrior. We can also consider that the acknowledged exagerrated nature of the EU by the LFL authorities generally only really apply to Force Use, and Kas'im's definining feature is his technical ability with a lightsaber.

Essentially, what I'm saying, is that even taking into account that the EU completely seperate from the time of the movies may possible not be truly reflective of the true fictional reality, when we consider the individuals involved (Bane and Kas'im), and even look at things from the perspective of "should they be as powerful as they're depicted as" or "should they be this powerful with respect to someone like Yoda", the answer's still yes. Yoda represented a very old (and ial by extension experienced), wise, and powerful Jedi at the time of the films; the most powerful out of every single individual involved perhaps. However I see no reason to believe that he should necessarily be the most powerful Jedi ever, or even one of the most powerful ever, and that beings such as Kas'im and Bane can't outclass him in certain areas. Again, I'm not even considering what's directly shown or stated but thinking as to the root causes of whether something should be the case. And given thet we're dealing with the Sith'ari, described as the Sith's Chosen One, described as being possessive of "perfect strength, perfect power, perfect destiny," and whos very characterisation was largely based on him being abnormally powerful and vastly more powerful than everyone else, and Kas'im, the greatest warrior out of the most warlike order of darksiders that numbered in the thousands, someone who's characterisation was based off of his ability and dedication as a swordsman, and someone who represented a genuine threat to the afoermentioned Sith'ari who had already been realising power at a ridiculous rate, to me, it's not crazy that Bane would outclass Yoda with the Force and that Kas'im would alternatively do so with a lightsaber.

To me, the feats we see in the Bane books, next to what we see in the movies, isn't necessarily ridiculous or reflective of the true state of events.

But what are you suggesting anyway? That we disregard some of the stuff shown/stated in the Bane books simply because they're based within the EU?

Technique didn't help Dooku a lot against Yoda. I'm sure Dooku's technique is more advance than Yoda's. But he still can't beat Yoda.

I'm sure it is as well but certainly not to the degree that Kas'im's would be, and I'd say that kas'im;s demonstrated himself to be a more powerful individual than Dooku as wlel, especially his Force assisted lightsaber abilities.

If you really want to compare Yoda to a regular human, then I can say for sure that he has demonstrated intelligence and wisdom above that of an average human. If you question his thinking and reasoning skills then you totally misunderstand the character.

It's not so much that it may be above or below or identical to the average human's, but that it's of the same nature.

I'll use the example of Dooku again, who got owned by Anakin while Dooku is by far the most technically skilled. He still got disarmed by Anakin.

I wouldn't say thay Dooku is necessarily more skilled than Anakin actually, and again, the degree of superiority is compeltely different.

Originally posted by truejedi
This: We make the fair assumption that Yoda and Kas'sim the Magnificent will both have access to the force how it pertains to lightsaber combat.

So i guess if you didn't realize that, that would be a reason why you are arguing for Kas'sim the Magnificent here.

If you want to say "No force at all" in the OP, then we have a technical skill only battle, and yes, Kas'sim the Magnificent is doubtlessly better there. He had to be to make up for his lack of force ability. (Which he did brilliantly, to the point of being an unstoppable beast)

I'm not saying "no force at all," I'm saying we can compare them in every single element of lightsaber combat, and that as we do so in technical ability, that's all we take into account.

Essentially, I believe that Kas'im is vastly more skilled than Yoda with a lightsaber, and I believe he's demonstrated himself to be fast and powerful enough that he's possibly more so as far as it pertains to lightsaber ability, and ial at the very least on the same level.

I wouldn't say Kas'im lacked Force ability; he defended himself against Bane's Force Wave, which is a pretty might showing, especially considering he focused almost entirely on his saber combat.

he wasn't even as good as Raskta was he? She was called the greatest swordsman in the galaxy?

And I need to see your quote about Kas'sim, because I know for a fact he said something along the lines of himself being unable to reach as high a peak as Bane because he was weaker in the force.

"As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force. The Force allows you to anticipate your opponent's moves and counter them with your own. But the more options your foe has available, the more difficult it is to predict which will be chosen."

Raskta was just the Jedi Weapon Master, and presumably the best Jedi swordsman. Kas'im was described as the best living swordsman, Jedi, Sith, or otherwise, and possibly the greatest ever.