Do dreams really matter at all?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The image of a car in a dream is am image of a car. If the image of a car is random, then you will not identify it as a car. Images are pulled from a library of sorts, in the mind. The relationship of the images maybe random, but those sets of images will not stick with you. The ones that stand out are the ones that are given meaning by you. That meaning is of value.

so then you would agree that similar meaningful associations that people make with inkblots and the like are of equal value to dream interpretations?

Originally posted by inimalist

but, if there is no real source for generating "meaningful symbols" in your dreams, this process would be no different than reflecting on the personal significance of ink-blot interpretations, something considered to have little psychological value.

I suppose. However you are proposing that dreams are like randomly generated stories in that case, which feels wrong to me as they are produced by the same brain that produce other thoughts, similar thoughts in my experience, but you have like 5 years of psychology/neuroscience study at the highest level on me, so...do you know what the current understanding of that is, are dreams random in that way?

Originally posted by inimalist
so then you would agree that similar meaningful associations that people make with inkblots and the like are of equal value to dream interpretations?

I'm not sure. The idea of inkblots, and their meaning is a powerful icon, that overwhelms any logical thinking.

The dream is unimportant; the interpretation is the process where value is added. Lets say two people have the same dream. One of them has no ability to think (the person is in a comma or something of that sort), the other person is normal. The person who cannot think, does not think about the dream, and therefore there is no meaning. However, the normal person adds value through interpretation of the dream, if the dream has relevance to the persons life. This is a normal process.

Originally posted by The MISTER
I believe that this makes good sense. The world that we dream about is built from experiences that we have had in the conscious world. It would be cool if somehow we found a way to enter it with awareness similar to the Matrix. I've had dreams where I became aware that I was dreaming and the results are pretty cool. I don't have godlike power but I have some control over things similar to having powers and not knowing how to use them.

Depending on the distance of some future event that a person accurately predicts and the relevance of said event to the dreamer, I'd say that would be evidence that there is something to it. Like if you dreamed about the tsunami two years before it happened and everyone was talking about tsunamis.

When you say dreaming 24/7 do you mean the subconscious mind is at work 24/7? 😮‍💨

Originally posted by Bardock42
I suppose. However you are proposing that dreams are like randomly generated stories in that case, which feels wrong to me as they are produced by the same brain that produce other thoughts, similar thoughts in my experience,

the thing is, you are talking about the narrative that is built around experience, which itself is a process of the mind. dreams aren't a story you are telling yourself, but rather the "story" of the dream comes from your brain creating the most reasonable narrative based on current sensory input (in the case of dreams, the input generates from inside the brain, rather than through the eyes and ears). This is actually how the brain works during waking life as well. The "story" of how you understand events is built by your brain, based on the best immediatly available information.

Originally posted by Bardock42
but you have like 5 years of psychology/neuroscience study at the highest level on me, so...do you know what the current understanding of that is, are dreams random in that way?

i don't know, and the current understanding isn't much clearer. There are many theories that vary from them being extremely important personal symbols to them having no relevance at all.

My assumption is that this "meaning" interpretation comes as an artifact of Freud and Jung, given this was a big area for both of them, and one that continues to be difficult to address empirically.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm not sure. The idea of inkblots, and their meaning is a powerful icon, that overwhelms any logical thinking.

The dream is unimportant; the interpretation is the process where value is added. Lets say two people have the same dream. One of them has no ability to think (the person is in a comma or something of that sort), the other person is normal. The person who cannot think, does not think about the dream, and therefore there is no meaning. However, the normal person adds value through interpretation of the dream, if the dream has relevance to the persons life. This is a normal process.

ok, but forget that we disagree about the value of associative-meaning tests, you don't see anything particularly special about dream-meaning versus other types of associations people build?

Originally posted by inimalist
the thing is, you are talking about the narrative that is built around experience, which itself is a process of the mind. dreams aren't a story you are telling yourself, but rather the "story" of the dream comes from your brain creating the most reasonable narrative based on current sensory input (in the case of dreams, the input generates from inside the brain, rather than through the eyes and ears). This is actually how the brain works during waking life as well. The "story" of how you understand events is built by your brain, based on the best immediatly available information.

I don't know this sounds to me like it could be useful, if thought about and interpreted. These sensory inputs, and the story that's created are they unrelated to things your past ideas and believes though, because as someone who dreams at times, the story at least is often along the lines of things or feelings I know or experience.

Originally posted by inimalist
i don't know, and the current understanding isn't much clearer. There are many theories that vary from them being extremely important personal symbols to them having no relevance at all.

Why do you land on the side of no relevance?

Originally posted by inimalist
My assumption is that this "meaning" interpretation comes as an artifact of Freud and Jung, given this was a big area for both of them, and one that continues to be difficult to address empirically.

Oh yeah, I do believe that, too. And I don't attribute to them an incredibly powerful, insightful meaning.

i have seen things in my dreams that i never have seen in real life or felt in real life

i had a dream i was burning once and the fire felt so real and hurted so much and i never have been burnt before

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, but forget that we disagree about the value of associative-meaning tests, you don't see anything particularly special about dream-meaning versus other types of associations people build?

I'd say it's at most as useful as reflection on other thoughts or daydreams or experiences you had. Maybe it's no more useful than random musings on anything random, but I think it may have more potential.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, but forget that we disagree about the value of associative-meaning tests, you don't see anything particularly special about dream-meaning versus other types of associations people build?

Generally, yes, but I also believe that dreams are a form of communication between the conscious and unconscious mind. This is not always the case, but for me, it is often the case. I remember some studies that were done on this topic, but I can't recall the outcome of the study.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't know this sounds to me like it could be useful, if thought about and interpreted. These sensory inputs, and the story that's created are they unrelated to things your past ideas and believes though, because as someone who dreams at times, the story at least is often along the lines of things or feelings I know or experience.

fair enough. These types of associations that people make, themselves, tend to be with regard to things that are immediatly salient to them. So, yes, if you are dreaming that you are failing a test you know is coming up in a week, then the interpretation "I don't feel ready for the test" is probably valid and useful. And in this way, all forms of association can be useful, to a limited degree. If someone does legitimately see death and violence in any ambigious image you show them, it probably indicates they have some negative cognitions.

I'm not trying to say the meaning you can take from a dream is not relevant, but more that the meaning you take from the dream is not the purpose of the dream itself. I don't feel dreams are trying to "help" you through things, or "tell" you how you feel about things, though it is likely they will reflect your immediate cognitive state.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Why do you land on the side of no relevance?

cynically: because I don't dream

more seriously: its not my field, so even my opinion here is little better than a layman, other than to say, it doesn't make sense that your brain would try to subconsciously "tell" your "dreaming" mind something.

To me, the meaningfull interpretations seem to work backwards, they assume dreams have meaning, and then when they make what I would call arbitrary connections between dreams and a person's life, they claim they were correct. And like I was talking about earlier with psychic powers, I would assume, given all the work that has been done on dreams, if there were some strong association between dreams and meaning, we would at least be able to point to some strongly conclusive results.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Generally, yes, but I also believe that dreams are a form of communication between the conscious and unconscious mind. This is not always the case, but for me, it is often the case. I remember some studies that were done on this topic, but I can't recall the outcome of the study.

how do differeientiate between the conscious and unconscious mind?

Originally posted by inimalist
fair enough. These types of associations that people make, themselves, tend to be with regard to things that are immediatly salient to them. So, yes, if you are dreaming that you are failing a test you know is coming up in a week, then the interpretation "I don't feel ready for the test" is probably valid and useful. And in this way, all forms of association can be useful, to a limited degree. If someone does legitimately see death and violence in any ambigious image you show them, it probably indicates they have some negative cognitions.

I'm not trying to say the meaning you can take from a dream is not relevant, but more that the meaning you take from the dream is not the purpose of the dream itself. I don't feel dreams are trying to "help" you through things, or "tell" you how you feel about things, though it is likely they will reflect your immediate cognitive state.

cynically: because I don't dream

more seriously: its not my field, so even my opinion here is little better than a layman, other than to say, it doesn't make sense that your brain would try to subconsciously "tell" your "dreaming" mind something.

To me, the meaningfull interpretations seem to work backwards, they assume dreams have meaning, and then when they make what I would call arbitrary connections between dreams and a person's life, they claim they were correct. And like I was talking about earlier with psychic powers, I would assume, given all the work that has been done on dreams, if there were some strong association between dreams and meaning, we would at least be able to point to some strongly conclusive results.

Alright, well we seem to be on the same page really.

Originally posted by inimalist
how do differeientiate between the conscious and unconscious mind?

Are you asking me how do I tell the difference? Or how does science tell the difference?

I do it this way: I need to build something. I use all my skills to build this thing, but sometimes that is not enough. Problems arise, and I don't know how to fix them. I will "put" the problem in the "back of my mind" and wait for an answer. What am I doing? What does "put" mean? What is the "back of my mind" mean? I really don't know, but it works. You tell me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Are you asking me how do I tell the difference? Or how does science tell the difference?

actually, even among professionals, terms like conscious and unconscious are very contentious. I'm wondering to understand what you mean

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I do it this way: I need to build something. I use all my skills to build this thing, but sometimes that is not enough. Problems arise, and I don't know how to fix them. I will "put" the problem in the "back of my mind" and wait for an answer. What am I doing? What does "put" mean? What is the "back of my mind" mean? I really don't know, but it works. You tell me.

I get ya. I might call those explicit and implicit reasoning, but thats not quite accurate.

Originally posted by inimalist
actually, even among professionals, terms like conscious and unconscious are very contentious. I'm wondering to understand what you mean

I get ya. I might call those explicit and implicit reasoning, but thats not quite accurate.

I think dreams can be the same thing. What makes it difficult to categorize is the fact that it is not always.

Dream symbolism / interpretation is a tricky subject. I tend to view mind and body as two aspects of the same whole. Very generally speaking, since we have physiological processes in common, I suspect there may be "universal" dream symbols reflecting these common processes, and which are further shaped by a person's experiences. But as a rule, when I do dream interpretation, I focus more on emotional content than any particular symbolism.

As for the "purpose" of dreams: as with anything going on in/with an organism, the "purpose" is to keep the organism going, healthily and happily if possible. Dreaming is simply our perception of subtler psychophysiological processes at work.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think dreams can be the same thing. What makes it difficult to categorize is the fact that it is not always.

I hate the experience of knowing something without being able to express it in words, which I think is similar to what you are saying

Originally posted by Mindship
Dream symbolism / interpretation is a tricky subject. I tend to view mind and body as two aspects of the same whole. Very generally speaking, since we have physiological processes in common, I suspect there may be "universal" dream symbols reflecting these common processes, and which are further shaped by a person's experiences. But as a rule, when I do dream interpretation, I focus more on emotional content than any particular symbolism.

huh, that is a really interesting point. Given the fact that there are nearly universal human cognitions and behaviours, it does sort of follow that some dreams, or at least the way some of the symbols we interpret out of them, might be common and reflect some evolutionary/plasticity development...

lol, I had a discussion in one of my courses earlier this term about whether some moral beliefs might be the same, actually hard wired into us based on evolution rather than culture. this is the stuff I got nuts for, tbh

Originally posted by inimalist
its strange, I've never really dreamed, or at least, I don't remember them at all, but I swear I don't

try some "African Dream Root" (Silene capensis), this herb apparently helps to have excellent deep & lucid dreams.

not sure of the legality in some countries mind.

info link

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, I had a discussion in one of my courses earlier this term about whether some moral beliefs might be the same, actually hard wired into us based on evolution rather than culture. this is the stuff I got nuts for, tbh