Re: What's the most powerful force in Marvel U
Originally posted by Stall_19
Ultimate Nullifier, White Crown Phoenix, Infinity Gauntlet, Classic Beyonder, Living Tribunal or something else?
Agree with your list 100%. Add in the M'kraan crystal and the multiversal energy matrix and they're definitely the top tier powers in Marvel.
What about the Infinites? Where do they fit in?
They manhandled Eternity's M-body with one hand, literally. He and the Avengers had to resort to begging the Infinites not to keep carrying out their "energy alignment" plans. Thor/Eternity tried to get loud with them, they showed him the difference between "God" and "god" 😄
Plus they look cool.
Is it safe to say (power wise, not authority and excluding retcons) :
Entities :
TOAA
Infinites
Full PF/ Living Tribunal
Goblin Force
Objects :
Nexus of all Realities / M'krann Crystal
Ultimate Nullifer
HotI
IG
Artifacts
HOTU
Amulet of power w/Excalibur
Nexus of Realities
Infinity Gauntlet
Ultimate Nullifier
Celestial Nullifier
Cosmic Cube
M'Krann Crystals
Beings
TOAA
Living Tribunal
Mad Jim Jasper w/ Fury and without
Captain Britain w/ Amulet of Power and Excalibur
Merilyn The Omniverse Guardian
Jamie Braddock
HOM Scarlett Witch
White Crown Phoenix
Evil Molecule Man Full Potential
Originally posted by GalacticStormI believe the Phoenix Force has greater feats which it does.
Originally posted by GalacticStormConfirmation of being a multiversal entity- check
Been nearly killed by some Alien Starship, & Galactus,
been blown into Billions of pieces by Shiar weaponry and even Xorn 😂
been stalemated by 6 freakin heroes, one of which was Rogue. LOL!
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe creation force that universes of the multiverse are composed of- check
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe power that contained the multiversal destroying power of the m'kraan crystal- check
Jean was getting absorbed (fading from existence) when she faced the Neutron galaxy:
(that's the universal destroying power within the Mkraan Crystal)
This N-Galaxy is HELD in Check by a Series of Interlocking Stasis Fields:
In fact, when Jean attempted to fix the Lattice it's clearly stated that:
"it's NOWHERE NEAR good enough"
and again,
Phoenix does NOT "contain" the power of the N-Galaxy that does the destroying:
And on top of this, the Writer clearly states how:
""For ALL Her awesome Power, she can't do it alone""
when she attempted to stop the N-galaxy from breaking out its shell:
Jean,
had to become one with the spirits of all the X-Men and Corsair in order to just re-knit the Lattice.
And even then she fell unconscious from the effort.
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe power that empowered Jean Grey to manipulate a universe in her palm- check
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe power that empowered Jean Grey to casually amputate and destroy 150yrs of timeline- check
It was Scott's decision that destroyed the future of Reality 15104,
Jean only manipulated Scott's decision.
Another inadvertent affect.
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe power that connected all realities of the multiverse to Otherworld- check
Fact:
Without the Interface Alignment taking place before the feat,
the feat was impossible for Phoenix.
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe power through which Necrom was compressing all realities of the multiverse into a singularity- check
Necrom was never compressing anything! ... HAHAHAHA!!!
That was Necrom bluffing, which was stated on panel: (two different occasions)
We later realized the Matrix was collapsing on it's own, causing Multiversal compression,
since way back in the day when it was first stabilized as a constant:
The gauntlet has been thrown down by galacticstorm... And picked up by my master... Err mr master. :-P
*begins devout groveling* lol
Ps. I do believe Phoenix is fairly powerful... I just don't give her the hugs an kisses other people do... The living tribunal however... I'm his own special fanboy. :-)
Oh and guys when you start on the cosmic hierarchy cut and paste let's try to avoid hitting 30 pages of it... K? :-P lol
=======================
(TOAA)
Creates everything that takes place on panel. God, of all Marvel Gods.
=======================
... Now, a list of TOAA's most powerful creations on panel ...
=======================
Originally,
the Marvel Universe was an ever expanding infinite Multiverse,
the "God/Creator" (on panel) of the Marvel Universe was the Infinity Being,
then Sise-Neg was able to become another God called Genesis,
and so he was able to re-create the same Marvel Universe anew.
Incredibly, we later learn, that this ever expanding infinite Multiverse,
was like a drop of water,
next to an ocean of a reality (Beyond Realm) that encompassed everything beyond it.
In 1984, the Beyonder was created/introduced by TOAA.
(Pre-retcon Beyonder)
Millions of times more powerful than everything/anything
combined in the Marvel Universe.
...................................................
(The Heart of the Infinite) ... 2003
The Supreme power (God) withIN the Marvel Universe.
=======================
(Pre-retcon Molecule Man) ... 1984-88
The most powerful human being ever on panel,
above even the Abstracts like the LT.
at one point controlled all time-space and matter.
=======================
These below have been depicted as being or becoming above/more powerful than LT:
=======================
(Scathan)
In the 31st Century ... proved to be more powerful than the LT.
...................................................
(Protege)
In the 31st Century ... (bred to be the evolutionary next step)
... can, on the instant fly, copy the powers of any being/entity ... even the LT's.
...................................................
(The Living Tribunal)
... In current continuity, the most powerful entity at-least until the 31st century.
=======================
=======================
These beings below have been/and or become "God" or "God-like" ...
- in no particular order -
Some of them, by extension and definition of what they did,
places them in supreme being department.
=======================
(The Infinity Being) ... 1991
Creator of the Marvel Universe, and Infinity Gems.
...................................................
(Genesis) ... 1972
Re-initiated the original Big Bang to re-created the Marvel Universe.
...................................................
(Alien Entity) ... 2006
Re-initiated the original Big Bang to re-created the Marvel Universe,
merged with the Big Bang.
...................................................
(HOM Wanda) ... 2005
Remade 616 in her image, morphed the entire Marvel Universe
tearing it to pieces,
then she put it all back with a thought,
simutaneously nullifying the Mutant gene across 90% of the race in all timelines.
...................................................
(Edifice Rex) ... 1991
Confronted the cosmic hierarchy, they were nothing to him,
he was going to force everything in the Marvel Universe
back into the cosmic egg, (starting point of the big bang)
and then "maybe put the egg on a nice marble pedestal" ... lol ...
we know this is true from the reaction of the hierarchy
when he suggested doing it.
=======================
****
...................................................
(616 Jaspers) ... 1983 ... official re-print 1995
Remade and even became the 616 reality, but far beyond this,
is the fact that even the far weaker Jaspers 238
was more powerful than Matrix/Merlyn,
and that alone says it it all.
Also, Cobweb saw a possible alternate future
where Jaspers wasn't stopped by his plot device (Fury)
in that scenario, Jaspers cancelled the entire omniverse.
Jaspers was going to destroy the omniverse again, just 2 years ago,
and once again, only the Fury seemed to have his number.
...................................................
(Jamie Braddock) ... early 90's
Toying with entire Universes with dolls from withIN other separate Universes,
able to create most of a Universe from nothing,
effortlessly warping the white hot room,
withstanding omniversal mental attacks ... unharmed,
manipulating events across the omniverse.
...................................................
(Matrix Merlyn) ... 1983 ... official re-print 1995
Created Otherworld (pan-dimensional Universe)
created the Starlight Citadel (omniversal nexus, it can also obliterate universes)
created the CN (can erase any universe in the omniverse)
placed the life-force of omniversal time-space within tiny crystals,
in order for the CN to function.
...................................................
(Nexus Havok) ... 2001
Became the embodiment of the omniversal Nexus of all realities,
as such, had literal power to affect all creation.
...................................................
(Abraxas) ... 2001
Embodiment of destruction,
his mere presence collapses UniverseS without effort,
the infinite power of the prime Multiverse (Eternity/Infinity)
could not touch him, only the UN-like power was a threat to him.
...................................................
(Eternity/Infinity) ... always
Embodiment of all that was, is and ever will be in the Marvel Universe,
their consciousness extends only across the trans-infinite Multiverse though.
(that's because there's only a few other Multiverses known to us)
...................................................
(The BeyonderS) ... 1994
A minute fraction of their energy creates Cosmic Containment Units,
CCU has been called "God in a box" ...
One Cube was used by god-like Marvell
to give all villains/heroes of his universe their own reality,
Thanos became the 616 Reality with one CCU,
Doom/RedSkrull/Magneto, used one CCU to create three entire Universes,
which the same Cube stacked on top of 616, merging all 4 Universes as one,
this caused an imbalance that nearly collapsed the Omniverse,
Roma interfered.
=======================
Originally posted by quanchi112
I've never seen such ownage in all my life. He completely decimated every point gaalctis storm thought he had.
Finally we agree on the something 🙂 !
This is like reliving Super Bowl 24 all over again but much worse. Your the man Mr. Master, hell you forgot Captain Britain, Evil Molecule Man 😄.
Stan Lee in Fantastic Four Comics is the most powerful force. Then next would be the LT and then The Old Beyonder then the UN. The Heatr of the Universe would seem to be above the LT but it wasn't really the heart that was the driving force. The Lt got absorbed because TOAA used Thanos. It would seem the LT was basically stripped of his power for the sake of the story.
Via the Interface Alignment which connects the Realities of the Multiverse.
In the moment the Interface was aligned, (a self perpetuating process)
Phoenix had access to those realities simultaneously,
allowing Multiversal entry to realities,
then the single Tower was created which inturn kept the already existing Energy Matrix aligned.Fact:
Without the Interface Alignment taking place before the feat,
the feat was impossible for Phoenix.
BS. You don't know for a fact it was "impossible". Fact is the Phoenix didn't care about aligning anything and only was interested in making contact with Feron. It was Necrom that tricked Feron into asking/using the Phoenix to make the tower connect to all realities.
Necrom, Merlyn, Feron had no clue who/what or if anything was going to be contacted.
False!Necrom was never compressing anything! ... HAHAHAHA!!!
That was Necrom bluffing, which was stated on panel: (two different occasions)
We later realized the Matrix was collapsing on it's own, causing Multiversal compression,
since way back in the day when it was first stabilized as a constant:
Half Truth. Necrom planned the whole thing from the beginning once Feron made contact with the PF. In fact once he knew of the Force, he dropped the whole energy matrix and fought Feron for control over the PF. Merlyn jumped into the matrix and stabilized it.
The fact that Necrom kept threatening to compress all realities using the matrix was a trick to get Rachel to use the Force so he could access it. He was only after the PF once he knew of it, the compress reality plan was his way of tricking it's host to summon the PF so he could access it's power again.
That's why he kept referring to the compression as the first phase of his plan.
Merlyn outsmarted him by forming Exaclibur. Brian would act as the battery, absorbing the energy of the matrix, Meggan would metabolize the raw power into something usable, Kurt would use his power to navigate through all the universes, Rachel would use her latent power to time travel and Kitty would merge them all into one being capable of accessing all their abilities simultaneously. The five of them would repair the damage caused by Necrom to the multiverse WITHOUT needing to summon the PF.
The plan worked but Necrom showed up and threatened to torture/kill them all one by one unless Rachel summoned the PF. She knew they had no chance and took the fight to him.
All the multiverse spanning power of the Energy Matrix was an afterthought to him. It was the PF he was after all along. That alone should tell you something.
Originally posted by Mr Master
😆Has never destroyed a Universe outside of a What If comic,
and has never even created a Galaxy in a mainstream (616) story.Been nearly killed by some Alien Starship, & Galactus,
been blown into Billions of pieces by Shiar weaponry and even Xorn 😂
been stalemated by 6 freakin heroes, one of which was Rogue. LOL!This is so ridiculous it's not worth addressing.
Bullshit ... Jean does not, did not,
and could never have contained the power of the Neutron Galaxy within the Mkraan Crystal.Jean was getting absorbed (fading from existence) when she faced the Neutron galaxy:
(that's the universal destroying power within the Mkraan Crystal)
This N-Galaxy is HELD in Check by a Series of Interlocking Stasis Fields:
In fact, [b]when Jean attempted to fix the Lattice
it's clearly stated that:"it's NOWHERE NEAR good enough"
and again,
Phoenix does NOT "contain" the power of the N-Galaxy that does the destroying:
And on top of this, the Writer clearly states how:
""For ALL Her awesome Power, she can't do it alone""
when she attempted to stop the N-galaxy from breaking out its shell:Jean,
had to become one with the spirits of all the X-Men and Corsair in order to just re-knit the Lattice.And even then she fell unconscious from the effort.
The visualization of a Universe as proven by ODG and myself.
Jean only manipulated Sublime's atoms which in-turn amputated Sublime's future in reality (Earth-15104)False.
It was Scott's decision that destroyed the future of Reality 15104,
Jean only manipulated Scott's decision.Another inadvertent affect.
Via the Interface Alignment which connects the Realities of the Multiverse.
In the moment the Interface was aligned, (a self perpetuating process)
Phoenix had access to those realities simultaneously,
allowing Multiversal entry to realities,
then the single Tower was created which inturn kept the already existing Energy Matrix aligned.Fact:
Without the Interface Alignment taking place before the feat,
the feat was impossible for Phoenix.False!
Necrom was never compressing anything! ... HAHAHAHA!!!
That was Necrom bluffing, which was stated on panel: (two different occasions)
We later realized the Matrix was collapsing on it's own, causing Multiversal compression,
since way back in the day when it was first stabilized as a constant:
The man’s really good.
I wish you debate other characters than just Marvel cosmic ones.
Originally posted by Mr Master
😆Has never destroyed a Universe outside of a What If comic,
and has never even created a Galaxy in a mainstream (616) story.[/URL]
Half the abstracts have never destroyed or created universes/galaxies and yet your bias causes you to ignore that. I will not let that go unnoticed. LT has never destroyed a universe. Galactus has never destroyed a universe. A Celestial has never destroyed a universe.
If by canon the Phoenix Force at a universal level is the energies of the Big Bang, then it stands to reason that if she so chose she could blow up a universe.
If one of her hosts can manipulate the universes atoms in her palm a feat which involves total atomic control over all matter and energy contained within then it is completely logical and feasible that she could blow up a universe if she chose.
Your logic is flawed.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Been nearly killed by some Alien Starship, & Galactus,
been blown into Billions of pieces by Shiar weaponry and even Xorn 😂
been stalemated by 6 freakin heroes, one of which was Rogue. LOL!
Not at all. I love how I continuously and consistently prove you wrong on this issue and you disappear for a few months and then return hoping it has been forgotten about so you can repeat the same tired argument.
Im not having it son 🙂
The Phoenix Force at a universal level is the ambient, formless energies of creation:
“My true nature is without form, touching all that lives”
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“All that is I am”
“Nothing lives that is not touched by a part of me”
“sum and substance of all life”
“Galactus was transformed by the energies of creation itself. Call it the Big Bang or the Phoenix Force”
The Firebird is not the sum total of the Phoenix because the sum total of the Force is the energies of creation so for all of that to be summed up in the firebird form would mean everywhere else would be a void. In the similar way that the abstracts represent universal concepts however they manifest within reality through mbodies, avatars which represent a portion of their totality. The hooded skeletal figure is Deaths mbody however all death is not summed up in that figure otherwise everywhere else in the universe there would be immortality.
So why are you accepting of that and ignoring the notion that the Phoenix Force Firebird is merely an avatar a small segment of the Force?
The Phoenix manifested within reality that is a mere expression of a universes life force:
“You are an expression of the universal life force”
A representation. Not the whole.
The Firebird is an avatar:
Hosts contain an avatar
Hosts contain An avatar
The firebird is an expression of the Phoenix Force it is its sentience represented in reality. It is NOT the full Force.
When Jean was attacked by Xorn, the full force wasn’t blown to pieces merely the avatar, the portion of force she hosted
If you go to the Phoenix Force bio no distinction is made between a fragment of the Force in operation and the greater whole. It is still the same being. A bucket full of sand from a whole beach of the stuff is still referred to as sand. It doesn’t have a different name because of its reduced form. An appearance of the firebird does NOT equate to the full force. It is up to you to have the common sense to look at a story and the individual circumstances of said story and say yes this story refers to the Phoenix Force, yes it features a firebird but canon tells me that it’s just an avatar, one of many the Force has in operation.
In the Phoenix Endsong series you had a fragment of the Phoenix Force causing havoc. Some of the Force went to the White Hot Room with Jean some stayed behind making way for
Phoenix Warsong where you had a fragment of the Phoenix Force again causing havoc:
Whilst this was going on you had Rachel Grey manifesting the Phoenix Force and Korvus having a portion in the Blade of the Phoenix.
This proves my point. The firebird is just a representation of the Force, not the whole. As those stories I referenced proved there can be many in operation and yet each one of them is still titled the Phoenix Force.
Multiple avatars in operation simultaneously
