Annhilators vs Morrison JLA

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm asking you for EVIDENCE of this. Because I'm reading it as a literary device, one that is used COMMONLY, where as you're reading it as a scientific/quasi-mystical connection between two beings and a physical world. Fine, but shouldn't that have been spelled out somewhere? How is it more likely that something like that exists than simple creative description of a fight?

Soooo, YOUR interpretation is that they were destroying the planet due to the impact of their blows?

Originally posted by Desaad
You admit the ambiguity of the feat when it's brought to your attention. But you specifically refute the idea all across these boards unless someone actually familiar with it brings it up.

I didn't bring that feat as "evidence", MrMind did. I simply mentioned to him that context here is his enemy and he can't use the feat as a "planet smashing feat". Whether my interpretation of it is incorrect or not is irrelevant, the end results are the same. THE FEAT IS INADMISSIBLE as a planet-smashing feat.... :-/

OF COURSE I specifically refute the idea all across the board, it is inadmissible for many reasons, ambiguity being one of them. Hell, you agree with me on that.

Originally posted by Desaad
That's biased, and dishonest. Which would have been fine with me, frankly, if you didn't start this conversation with accusing me of the same. At the very least, I'm presenting the ambiguous nature of both feats in full.

I disagree. I simply mentioned that your comment can be seen as biased as you LEANED heavily on BOTH ambiguous interpretations of either feat that was pro-Superman.

Originally posted by Desaad
Your interpretation requires numerous special dispensations of logic; mine is taken at base level.

They never mention any special connection between the characters and a physical planet, so there is none.

Not really, actually, your interpretation requires certain words/narratives to be ignored or downplayed/exaggerated in order for them to make sense.

There's narrative and artowork that seemed to imply the things where I got my interpretation from, that is, unless you can point out what exactly was destroying the planet (cuz there certainly was ZERO indication via artwork that it was the impact of their fists).

Originally posted by Desaad
They never show that Gladiator has the ability to contain giant energy blasts, so he didn't.

So you're saying that characters CAN'T bend the laws of physics in comics and that no character in comics can affect/contain explosions simply via physical means?

Then what miraculously contained the blast? The Skrulls? :-/ Is it a bomb that contains itself AFTER it exploded? Why was there no mention of this on-panel?

Originally posted by Desaad
Your interpretation requires the invention of powers, of special and strange and never hinted at connections. Mine, via occams razor, are the more likely. But NEITHER are definitive, and I'm fine with that.

No, it isn't. Your interpretation is baseless and is simply a "maybe" scenario w/c you then push and force "the other side" to disprove by shifting the burden of proof to them. :-/

I think we agree that neither feats are applicable/admissible here due to ambiguity. The fact that we're still arguing about it feels stupid to me.

Originally posted by Desaad
"Tectonic plates roil under a hide of jaundiced leather", comes from a famous story describing Mongul fighting Superman. Am I to take it literally that Mongul is composed of tectonic plates and jaundiced leather?

Wow. There are different narrative styles done by writers. Some are literal and some are more metaphorical. You need to asses BOTH artwork, storyline AND the narrative styles to come up with your interpretation.

Grabbing a narrative style out of the blue and going "well this COULD be what he meant" is a big copout, especially when you present no proof via the scans that it is indeed, the case.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'm asking for some genuine evidence that they are connected, scientifically. It's such an out there concept that it shouldn't be something that was left to the audience to assume; you can see that, right? It requires all manner of logical stretching and reaching, where as my interpretation is simple and basic and requires nothing special.

No, I don't. My interpretations are the simpler interpretations, the interpretations that require less invention of outside circumstance or individual super power.[/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, artwork, narrative and storyline shows that Superman has a connection to the planet.

Supeman narrates that whenever they show injury, the planet splits.

Artowrk shows the planet shattering while they are fighting, no impact artwork is shown that somehow the force of their blows was causing this.

How is one supposed to interpret all this?

Sorry, it MAY be (admittedly) ambiguous but YOUR interpretation has even less proof than mine.

Originally posted by Desaad
Superman wouldn't be able to hold a black hole unless it was already compressed to the size of his palms. He's not going up to a sun and holding it in his hands, is he? Gladiator was CAUGHT in the explosion, he would have had to create some sort of GL-like force field around the blast to contain it. It's an ability he's never shown before.

Again, a bomb is detonated by the Skrulls.

Skrulls don't care much for humans.

Gladiator got caught in the heart of the blast.

Reed mentions that the explosion SHOULD have destroyed half the Solar System but didn't due to some unknown factor that somehow contained it.

Again, what other interpretations are there?

I mean, what IS your interpretation of the Gladiator feat?? That the Skrulls activated a bomb that somehow contained itself???

Is THAT your interpretation? Got proof to this?

Originally posted by Desaad
No, it only appears that way to YOU because you're on the OTHER side.

Here's the difference between us -- from the beginning, I've admitted, and even gone so far as to explain how the two feats in question are ambiguous, and open to multiple interpretation, then elected my own based on what I feel is the simpler, less desperate interpretation.

I also mentioned that the two feats were ambiguous. The fact that you go and dig up my comments from a different thread and THEN exaggerate my meaning to make me look like I was the one that brought out the Superman/Zod feat interpretation nothwithstanding.

Originally posted by Desaad
You and yours didn't feel the need to bring up any of that ambiguity until it was thrown in your face, by me, instead pretending that your interpretations were the only valid ones. That's dishonest. That's bias.

I ALREADY pointed out that there is a certain level of ambiguity on both feats by this comment:

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
While Glads didn't completely contain the blast, it DOES seem to be heavily implied that some of the force was, indeed, contained. Tho, I'll go as far as to say the ambiguity of the feat DOES make it debatable.

That was my first comment in this thread regarding that feat, why the hell would you claim that I was somehow deceptively hiding when I just brought this out now in this thread?

And why the hell am I being rolled into a "side" here. I never say that you're in h1's side whenever you argue in behalf of Superman wherein he's in it. I have more respect for the debaters here for that.

Show a little respec here and treat each individual debater separately.

Originally posted by Desaad
Why did you choose only to respond to me, to address my point, rather than say to someone on your side "Hey, actually, while I think you're right it could definitely be interpreted...?"

Because I saw how your comment can be interpretted as having bias and wanted to point it out.

I mean, why does ANYONE respond to anything? Because they just do. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
I've seen you on this thread or another, I honestly dont' know which, outright dismiss the idea that Superman and Zod battling could have been a literal destruction of the planet. "Carver already proved that, lol ur stpid!". Where was your even handed fairness then?

Wow. Now, you're misreading/misquoting me. That comment was made on MrMind's general misleading approach at downplaying/lowballing SEVERAL of Gladiator's feats w/c Carver THEN refuted by stating the context in all the feats he tried to downplay/exaggerate.

Simplifying my comment and then attaching it to a single argument IS both misleading and dishonest.

Originally posted by Desaad
Silver Surfer
Beta Ray Bill
Gladiator
Ronan the Accuser
Quasar (Wendell)

vs

Superman
Wonder Woman (Diana)
Batman
Green Lantern (Kyle, Morrison era rookie)
Flash (Wally, Morrison/Waid era badass)
Martian Manhunter (Morrison era fire weakness)
Aquaman (Hook hand/beard attitude)
Zauriel
Plastic Man

How does it go?

Hmm... revisiting the lineups, I still gotta go with Annihilators.
There are about 3-4 one shottables on JLA side. The power thrown around by the heavies of both sides will make it hard for these one shottables to do anything substantial. I think the heavies from team 2 fall just short of team 1's overall power, durability, strength, and versatility. If team JLA has any chance, I feel it's J'onn who can be their wildcard. He can be beastly if he has the chance to cut loose with his crazy powerset, but all of team 1 have the ability to attack with extreme heat/temp/fire/etc. His inconsistent defense against such attacks is suspect.
If I was going to quantify team 1's win probability, it would be around
7/10. (maybe a tad higher)

definitely not a stomp.

They wouldn't know he's weak against fire without figuring it out, though...

A physiological/biometric scan

By Silver Surfer, Ronan or Quasar is conceivable perhaps

Dunno about the bio scan, but it can be apparent near the start of the fight when there will be lots of "fire" fighting goin on.

cant cosmic awareness help in that venture?

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
cant cosmic awareness help in that venture?

if ure refering to the scan of Surfer and Gladz, I'm still unsure about that. was it really that definite that SS used his cosmic awareness to know of Glad'z weakness? Plus you can't count Surf using tp on J'onn cause that ain't gonna happen against him of all people. If J'onn gets tagged at the onset of the battle with some kind of extreme heat attack, it should be apparent to all of team 1. I think only then can they exploit it. I'm also throwing out red sun exploits here. I doubt that will come up in battle.

You know I'm still leaning towards a possible physiological/biometric scan from at least one of these; Silver Surfer, Ronan or Quasar, maybe even all three

I see it like this... Supes does have a cap on his strength but with anger and stressfull situations occur he can get temporarily a lil stronger due to adrenaline rush. Every hero has this ability, thas why colossus was able to beat proteus don, that's why Spiderman on 2 occasions were able to lift skyscraper size buildings, slap the hulk around, people out of tier. That's why wolverine was capable of outright running through lady death AND omega red at the same time and punch someone clean through concrete. That's why rogue became so strong that she punched juggernaut so hard that it created a shockwave so strong that it shook a city.

It happens but at the end of the day, all of them have a cap. Superman would never over power doomsday physically as he fight progressed whereas if someone like hulk was to fight doomsday for a prolong amount of time, he would be at insane levels.

It has been proven that kc supes strength wise is above clark... a none holding back Supes was no stronger than wondy, she matched him and had an opportunity of killing him. He has fought captain marvel and admitted that cap could drop him and he even go as far as saying that they were equals. He cut loose on adam to no avail and a holding back adam held his own.

He has a cap but during stress, he could potentially get a small boost but any character can do this... but he doesn't have the type of strength boost gladiator nor hulk has and neither does thor. Thor has never demonstrated this but the problem with thor is that "he holds back TREMENDOUSLY". When thor is unleashed, we see an entire new level of power, the true thor but he still have a cap on his strength.

carver prove Gladz strength boost is beyond what Thor and Superman are capable of its unlikely you will be able to prove it but humor me

MM mindblasts Gladiator and kos him as soon as the bell rings.

Originally posted by Bentley
MM mindblasts Gladiator and kos him as soon as the bell rings.

Not happening.

Yeah, because a Gladiator with psychic dampeners didn't piss himself when Cassandra Nova faced him... Nor got tricked and staled by a phoenixless Rachel Summers.

Originally posted by Bentley
Yeah, because a Gladiator with psychic dampeners didn't piss himself when Cassandra Nova faced him... Nor got tricked and staled by a phoenixless Rachel Summers.

He got temporarily tricked by phoenix and broke free. Cassandra nova didn't drop him with a tk attack. He has never been one shotted in an incident like this except one time. You can't use one instant to help your claim. Then gladiator is faster than martian so he could cover the distance and take martian out of the fight with a high dose of heat vision.

Originally posted by carver9
He got temporarily tricked by phoenix and broke free. Cassandra nova didn't drop him with a tk attack. He has never been one shotted in an incident like this except one time. You can't use one instant to help your claim. Then gladiator is faster than martian so he could cover the distance and take martian out of the fight with a high dose of heat vision.

Not one time. A phoenixless Rachel, Cassandra Nova (it's a tp attack, I don't even think MM has tk) and a cancerverse Xavier all stunned or downright defeated Gladiator easily with tp. Also his cousin was weakened by a non-psychic Richard Ryder by affecting her psychic aura. Glads has a glassjaw for telepathy.

EVEN, if he could hit MM, someone else in his team could block that attack and MM would beat him almost instantly.

John solos the sucka 😎

In reading some of the thread... I actually think Carver did a pretty good job with his defense of Glads

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In reading some of the thread... I actually think Carver did a pretty good job with his defense of Glads

Mabye its just the lack of DBZ or superman in the argument...but hes done a good job.

That being said JLA still win.

Gladz and Zeniths resistance to tp is suspect a mindblast ffrom Jonn would at the least weaken him

Yep, J'onz would be instrumental in quickly dispatching Kallark.

Originally posted by Bentley
Not one time. A phoenixless Rachel, Cassandra Nova (it's a tp attack, I don't even think MM has tk) and a cancerverse Xavier all stunned or downright defeated Gladiator easily with tp. Also his cousin was weakened by a non-psychic Richard Ryder by affecting her psychic aura. Glads has a glassjaw for telepathy.

EVEN, if he could hit MM, someone else in his team could block that attack and MM would beat him almost instantly.

John solos the sucka 😎

I will be back to respond to this.