Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Inference is NOT fine without corroborating evidence. It becomes even less usable as proof if there is evidence that seem to contradict it (or implies some level of contradiction). Thing is, there has been MANY instances where 1000s of IMPs would have been useful in helping save the world or perform critical tasks (thus enough motivation for him to do so) as well as enough opportunities for him to perform said punches. But why is there not a single scan that can be provided showing that he's even been able to do this once?Also, there has been MANY instances where he's thrown thousands (if not millions) of punches. Why weren't THESE IMPs?
Now you may call that PIS but IMO, PIS HAS to go counter to a character's majority showings. The SHEER ABSENCE of ANY PROOF whatsoever showing that he has thrown thousands if not millions of IMPs seem to imply that being able to throw 1000s/millions of IMPs isn't part of his majority showings, hence NOT PIS. Especially since he's been shown to thrown IMPs (BUT NOT thousans of it) as well as thrown thousands of punches (but not IMPs). The "science" might support you (which is worth little in fictional comics), but history does not (w/c is more important).
One possible explanation (and this is a COMPLETE shot in the dark, so don't take it too seriously) is that perhaps the first IMPs throw ppl clear into the sky (outside the range of further IMPs), forcing the Flash to chase down the flying body to deliver more blows (this has certainly happened on-panel).
I can actually see this happening to the Surfer. He'd get tossed away by the force of the blow at beyond light speed. But once he's thrown clear (w/c would allow him time to react), he can then think "PLANET-WIDE OMNI BLAST" and it would be game over.
Honestly, I'd love to see a single scan where 1000s of back-to-back IMPs were performed. That way, I can concede this point, nod my head in respect and go to the other debates.
Also, no one here is disputing that Wally/Zoom is too fast for the Surfer/Thanos to catch (well, maybe quan). Yes, with CIS-off they are in several order of magnitudes FASTER than the Surfer in terms of combat/reaction speed. What we're just saying is that the Surfer might just be fast enough (due to feats of mental processing and thought speed as well as nanosecond reaction) to be allowed ONE thought in between all the flying IMP fist punches to the jaw to deliver a power attack that would then allow them time to raise defenses and beat the pair once they get their bearing.
I think we both sides could perhaps just agree to disagree on whether or not either side wins or perhaps give this a tie standing like "half the time T1 stomps, other half T2 stomps".
I dunno, I think this debate has reached an impasse(IMO).
D_Dude don't even bother asking for proof because people have posted 1000+ punch feats and IMP feat. He is fast enough to put the two together but again due to the fact that no one would be able to stand up to that he doesn't in story because no villain would ever be able to stop something like that.
Originally posted by illadelph12The level of intelligence there was intimidating huh? I'm surprised you read *all* of it. Lol
Yes, I did, though I wish I hadn't.
Did you comment?
Originally posted by Starscream MMy take on the matter.
based on what exactly?I've rarely, if ever, seen Surfer display the type of speed feats that Superman regularly displays.
I think Surfer and Supes both have excellent travel feats. Comparable.
I think Superman uses his fighting reflexes better though based on what I've seen.
*Shrugs*
Originally posted by Tha C-Masteryes, they do both have excellent travel feats...and no doubt, surfer's travel feats may rival and even surpass superman's.I think Surfer and Supes both have excellent travel feats. Comparable.
I think Superman uses his fighting reflexes better though based on what I've seen.
*Shrugs*
but when it comes to fighting speed and reflexes, based on what I've seen, surfer doesn't display an iota of the speed and reflexes that superman does.
I feel people conflate the travel speed with fighting speed...so just because a character has fast travel feats, despite lack of speed reflex or fighting feats, people assume they are at superman level in terms of those speeds as well.
shrugs.
Originally posted by Starscream MI concur. Surfer probably does travel better than Superman, but Superman just has sooooo many insane feats. The man practically invented them, so I wouldn't be surprised.
yes, they do both have excellent travel feats...and no doubt, surfer's travel feats may rival and even surpass superman's.but when it comes to fighting speed and reflexes, based on what I've seen, surfer doesn't display an iota of the speed and reflexes that superman does.
I feel people conflate the travel speed with fighting speed...so just because a character has fast travel feats, despite lack of speed reflex or fighting feats, people assume they are at superman level in terms of those speeds as well.
shrugs.
I'd give Surfer the edge in travel, and Superman the edge in fighting speed and reflexes. The GL's have good travel feats as well.
Now Flash is obviously faster than the Supes or GL's in this match, Zoom makes them all statues (except Flash). hence my thoughts on the thread.
Good post. 🙂
I am openminded. I don't really care about people disagreeing with me. I just don't like when people argue for the sake of it and are really dense. I'm pretty sure some of the main people on the other side won't change their minds suddenly, but as long as the discussion is going somewhere I don't mind.
I actually had a long, well thought out response. Not sure if I wanna post it tho. It's Wall-of-text worthy and I'm not sure ppl would actually read it (as ppl didn't read my last wall-o-txt). And I'm actually worried that I might be getting under other ppl's skin (w/c I really wanna avoid as I respect several of the opposing posters here).
So, I'm just gonna try and break down the argument of both sides via a very small summary (pardon some generalizations made, this was done for the sake of shortening my original post).
I think I've compiled sufficient arguments/points to make my closing:
Let it be said that the Flash/Zoom camp argues:
1) That Flash/Zoom can react/attack so fast that neither Thanos or Surfer can even form a single simple cohesive thought before they get peppered by 100000000s of blows.
2) That Flash/Zoom can make each of these blows IMP.
3) That Surfer/Thanos' durability cannot withstand the number of IMPS they recieve.
4) That Surfer/Thanos will NOT be thrown clear from the impact of the first IMP once it lands.
(Pardon me if I missed anything)
The Surfer/Thanos camp argues:
1) That the Surfer (at least) has demonstrated nanosecond reaction time as well as being able to track light signals across obstacles, etc. and that this might at least allow him one thought before the fists come flying.
Also, let it be said that ABC logic was used to present "Flash/Zoom makes Superman a statue" and high-end feats cherrypicking (from Superman's wealth of high feats) was used to create the idea that this somehow makes the feat far more impressive than it actually is. On closer inspection, the feat (in itself) wasn't really all that impressive via these numbers:
The scan:
http://img232.imageshack.us/i/13qo5.jpg/
The facts:
Circled the Earth a dozen times.
Punched once every thousand miles.
Occured less than a second.
Earth's circumference: 24,901.55 miles
With these numbers, it means:
They travelled a total of 298,812 miles (est., slightly above light speed).
All within less than a second.
Punched a total of 298 times (est.).
Even assuming that they didn't travel in a straight line, still isn't all that impressive.
It also seems to imply one thing: They travel faster than they punch as for every punch, they travel a thousand miles.
2) That no proof has been presented outside of logical inference that the Flash/Zoom can even throw 1000s if not millions of IMPs withing such a span of time wherein the Surfer/Thanos cannot react. And evidence exists to contradict or to at least imply a level of contradiction to these claims.
Let it also be said that the Flash is an established character with literally decades of appearances. He has also been presented with ample motivation and opportunity to perform said attack yet not a single scan could be presented to conclusively demonstrate that he has been shown on panel to be capable of such.
3) That it can be argued that current Thanos' durability (at least) may be well beyond the ability of an IMP to KO as he's withstood a direct hit from a man who easily destroyed the Surfer's board (w/c in turn is able to easily Thor's hammer) and that he's really never been KOd by anything short of a Cosmic Cube. Let it be said that he was even vaporized and managed to reform conscious.
4) That evidence exist (thru scans) that Surfer/Thanos may be thrown clear by the first IMP as it was shown on-panel that this can happen (and may point out to why a string of 1000s or 1000000s of IMPs may either be not possible or at the very least unlikely to happen).
Let it also be said that the Flash/Zoom evidence w/c was presented has been shown to be inconclusive and that if EVEN ONE of their argumentations prove wrong, then the Surfer/Thanos team will be given enough time to win this fight easily.
Even though their logic is sound and their position completely understandable, let it be said that a combination of weak evidence, cognitive biases, cherrypicked feats and inference-for-evidence puts their case in shakey ground and at the very least casts reasonable doubt on the outcome of this VS battle.
