Cross Genre Match #21: Frieza vs Thanos

Originally posted by illadelph12
The main issue is the bias, IMO, and it's not just with DBZ characters. In most crossover matches it tends to be assumed that the comic character operates at a higher level than a non-comic character whether evidence to prove that sentiment is provided or not, and a non-comic character's feats are scrutinized and downplayed to a disproportionate degree as well. The only comic character that seems to get the same treatment around here is Apocalypse with his table meme.

the scrutiny give to DBZ feats is absurd...whereas the marvel/dc characters basically get a free ride

Originally posted by illadelph12
The main issue is the bias, IMO, and it's not just with DBZ characters. In most crossover matches it tends to be assumed that the comic character operates at a higher level than a non-comic character whether evidence to prove that sentiment is provided or not, and a non-comic character's feats are scrutinized and downplayed to a disproportionate degree as well. The only comic character that seems to get the same treatment around here is Apocalypse with his table meme.

that's an attitude present on the forum even without bringing in cross genre. it's to do with the inherent bias against certain characters and the willingness to let others get a free ride.

I still say the fundamental prob is that people are not willing to accept that DBZ works different, You don't have everyone do crazy lifting or speed feats at 1 point but you have a A>B>C>D system

It starts with Radditz who can catch bullets < Then they train an d get stronher and faster, then someone new shows up and trumps the former characters by a mile, then they train and get better and so on and so on...

Originally posted by -Pr-
that's an attitude present on the forum even without bringing in cross genre. it's to do with the inherent bias against certain characters and the willingness to let others get a free ride.

👆 like a certain "S"omeone that gets a lot of hate because people are Marvel bias.

Originally posted by illadelph12
The main issue is the bias, IMO, and it's not just with DBZ characters. In most crossover matches it tends to be assumed that the comic character operates at a higher level than a non-comic character whether evidence to prove that sentiment is provided or not, and a non-comic character's feats are scrutinized and downplayed to a disproportionate degree as well. The only comic character that seems to get the same treatment around here is Apocalypse with his table meme.

But yea it is more prevalent when non "Comic book" characters are on. But it really exists all over. As evidenced by any thread. Everyone has a different idea of what a character should be, and beyond that you just get low and high balling. It's really hard to measure these types of matches at times simply because the standard they use is so different, especially when argued by our rules.

Anime and Manga stories tend to be one story by one writer, so there aren't "high/ low showings" or "better or worse writers" they just are what they are.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
It starts with Radditz who can catch bullets

Japanese manga, read the panels from left to right.

I must say I've only watched the anime and was only a fan of Z so I don't remember much of the normal Dragonball show anymore. I remeber that the old Piccolo (WAY weaker than anyone in Z) was able to nuke a city or something.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Anime and Manga stories tend to be one story by one writer, so there aren't "high/ low showings" or "better or worse writers" they just are what they are.

Originally posted by Starscream M
there generally tends to be far more consistency in anime/mange than in comics

DBZ isn't consistent at all. They really screwed the pooch a bit though when they changed how they finished everything. The original idea was for Gohan to finish off Buu and the story be about him moreso. The fans didn't want Goku to be pushed to the side, so they redid everything into that silly ending. Ah well.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It should be since it is one long story with one writer as opposed to comics retconning and having several writers. It depends though.

DBZ isn't consistent at all. They really screwed the pooch a bit though when they changed how they finished everything. The original idea was for Gohan to finish off Buu and the story be about him moreso. The fans didn't want Goku to be pushed to the side, so they redid everything into that silly ending. Ah well.

and mystic gohan was the most powerful nonfusion character in DBZ

Originally posted by Parmaniac
I still say the fundamental prob is that people are not willing to accept that DBZ works different, You don't have everyone do crazy lifting or speed feats at 1 point but you have a A>B>C>D system

It starts with Radditz who can catch bullets < Then they train an d get stronher and faster, then someone new shows up and trumps the former characters by a mile, then they train and get better and so on and so on...

That's another thing that disappoints me. When a new featless enemy arrives in a comic and Superman/Hulk struggles to beat them, it's accepted as common sense to assume that the character operates at a level either equal to or greater than the hero, and that the hero will need to bring more power to the table, possibly even receiving a power up/weapon or using some unforeseen plot device, to achieve a victory. This same equation is frowned upon in non-comic media, particularly DBZ, and is even used in arguments against these other media. Is it some form of cognitive dissonance?

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's another thing that disappoints me. When a new featless enemy arrives in a comic and Superman/Hulk struggles to beat them, it's accepted as common sense to assume that the character operates at a level either equal to or greater than the hero, and that the hero will need to bring more power to the table, possibly even receiving a power up/weapon or using some unforeseen plot device, to achieve a victory. This same equation is frowned upon in non-comic media, particularly DBZ, and is even used in arguments against these other media. Is it some form of cognitive dissonance?

anyone trying to do that would be thick, tbh.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's another thing that disappoints me. When a new featless enemy arrives in a comic and Superman/Hulk struggles to beat them, it's accepted as common sense to assume that the character operates at a level either equal to or greater than the hero, and that the hero will need to bring more power to the table, possibly even receiving a power up/weapon or using some unforeseen plot device, to achieve a victory.

I remember when Rulk first came into play...beating thor, watcher, etc

people ridiculed him and said it must be PIS...which is kinda stupid at the time, since Rulk was an undefined character.

So while I agree with you regarding the idiocy of writing off an undefined character, it is something that occurs not only with non-comic characters

Rulk was a prime example.

Originally posted by Starscream M
eh...it was still consistent, since it wasn't goku's own power that beat buu

and mystic gohan was the most powerful nonfusion character in DBZ

The show was horribly inconsistent. That's hardly up for debate. We can see that in this very discussion. They might have become "more powerful" story wise, but as far as what they could and couldn't do. That changed wildly.

As a matter of fact, the Spirit Bomb didn't even work on Frieza (and he gathered energy from more than the Earth), but it worked later on two different occasions.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's another thing that disappoints me. When a new featless enemy arrives in a comic and Superman/Hulk struggles to beat them, it's accepted as common sense to assume that the character operates at a level either equal to or greater than the hero, and that the hero will need to bring more power to the table, possibly even receiving a power up/weapon or using some unforeseen plot device, to achieve a victory. This same equation is frowned upon in non-comic media, particularly DBZ, and is even used in arguments against these other media. Is it some form of cognitive dissonance?

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Red Hulk was still supposed to be close in power to regular Hulk, and by extension, should be able to operate at a level near to or greater than the Hulk. People argue regular Hulk being able to take Thor in h2h, and I'm pretty sure people would say Savage Hulk or another of Banner's stronger incarnations is strong enough to effectively cheap shot an unassuming and defenseless Watcher. The ridicule was more about how absurd the whole arc was from a writing standpoint, the gratuitous shock value of what Rulk was written to do, and discussion as to whether Loeb had lost his mind.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

The show was horribly inconsistent. That's hardly up for debate.

A weaker character virtually never would be able to beat a stronger character unless they get stronger or get a powerup.

This is unlike comics, where one day Flash is fighting an ubergod like Zoom and the next he gets tripped up by deathstroke. In DBZ that simply does not happen.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Red Hulk was still supposed to be close in power to regular Hulk,

I mean we knew nothing about the red hulk at first. who he was, how he came to be, the source of his power, etc. Why were we to assume he was at hulk's power level?

Originally posted by Starscream M
how was it horribly inconsistent? I'm sure there is some degree of inconsistency, but overall I felt it was very consistent.

A weaker character virtually never would be able to beat a stronger character unless they get stronger or get a powerup.

This is unlike comics, where one day Flash is fighting an ubergod like Zoom and the next he gets tripped up by deathstroke. In DBZ that simply does not happen.

Cell's self destruction threatens the whole planet, Majin SSj2 Vegeta just left a relatively small crater with his. Even at their highest levels their attacks did about the same damage to the environment as before.

Like I said before, Comics are written by several writers and had different levels of characters interact on teams and whatnot, so they do it for the sake of the plot. Flash is definitely sacrificed for the sake of the plot. Some characters are more consistent than others.

DBZ didn't had these stupid low showings like comics have if I recall, I mean that a person gets knocked out by an exploding gas station or stuff like that. Sometimes the strong chars don't do damage like they should, but at least they don't drop like the most powerfuls in comics at certain points.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
DBZ didn't had these stupid low showings like comics have if I recall, I mean that a person gets knocked out by an exploding gas station or stuff like that. Sometimes the strong chars don't do damage like they should, but at least they don't drop like the most powerfuls in comics at certain points.

But they did pretty much the same thing at all power levels. They were always just stronger than the other person until the other powered up and then the tables turned. Vegeta would get beaten, then the day would be saved, etc.

Even at their highest levels. They moved invisible, their blasts did the same environmental damage despite being 1,000x more powerful, etc. It's understandable though. But in debates like this minor detail becomes more substantial.