On a unrelated side note, I liked the Dragon Ball Kai special feature opening.
On a unrelated side note, I liked the Dragon Ball Kai special feature opening.
Originally posted by Starscream M
How did you arrive at that conclusion initially?I mean we knew nothing about the red hulk at first. who he was, how he came to be, the source of his power, etc. Why were we to assume he was at hulk's power level?
Because he was named "Red Hulk", and his first actions were brutally murdering Abomination and Wendigo (characters in the same ballpark of strength as Hulk, with supposedly Abomination being twice Hulk's base strength), so it's not an incredible leap of logic to think that a character named "Red Hulk", who is strong and capable enough to kill two members of Hulk's rogue's gallery, that are either nearly as strong or stronger than Hulk, would be in the same ballpark of strength as Hulk himself, if not stronger.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
But yea it is more prevalent when non "Comic book" characters are on. But it really exists all over. As evidenced by any thread. Everyone has a different idea of what a character should be, and beyond that you just get low and high balling. It's really hard to measure these types of matches at times simply because the standard they use is so different, especially when argued by our rules.Anime and Manga stories tend to be one story by one writer, so there aren't "high/ low showings" or "better or worse writers" they just are what they are.
Yep. That is another obstacle to threads like this. "Power stacking" is another one.
Originally posted by StyleTimeNot the threads themselves, more of the posters. It's a comic versus forum after all. Put a thread like this in an anime site it will have different results. It's just how it is.
Apart from maybe our use of feats, I don't think these threads are biased towards comic characters.Yep. That is another obstacle to threads like this. "Power stacking" is another one.
Yea Power stacking is a big one.
Goku did x in the Frieza Saga, so in the Buu saga he can do x++ without ever showing it.
Originally posted by illadelph12
The main issue is the bias, IMO, and it's not just with DBZ characters. In most crossover matches it tends to be assumed that the comic character operates at a higher level than a non-comic character whether evidence to prove that sentiment is provided or not, and a non-comic character's feats are scrutinized and downplayed to a disproportionate degree as well. The only comic character that seems to get the same treatment around here is Apocalypse with his table meme.
Originally posted by illadelph12well, yes, he was at or stronger than hulk
Because he was named "Red Hulk", and his first actions were brutally murdering Abomination and Wendigo (characters in the same ballpark of strength as Hulk, with supposedly Abomination being twice Hulk's base strength), so it's not an incredible leap of logic to think that a character named "Red Hulk", who is strong and capable enough to kill two members of Hulk's rogue's gallery, that are either nearly as strong or stronger than Hulk, would be in the same ballpark of strength as Hulk himself, if not stronger.
my point was that it was stupid for people to label his beating of thor or Watcher PIS, when they didn't know anything about him...an unknown character cannot suffer from PIS by the very definition of PIS
People here arevery bias about anime character. They won't accept what the characters has done and its sad. A lot of people made good points here... dbz is based off of power stacking and akira gave us a place to start. A person with a power level of a 100 and was capable of destroying moon.
In regards to fighting invisible, if you are moving tremendously fast, of course you would be moving at invisible speeds but you have to take some things into consideration... you have beings that have on panel proof of seeing super humans moving at super fast speeds and then you have these sam beings that can see super human movements being unable to see certain individuals move. Then you have times where they are seeing blast that are making it out of orbit instantly, they are seeing it in slow motion... etc, etc...
People fail to go by the power level scale. Vegeta during the saiyan saga could destroy a planet, that same blast that vegeta shot at earth would be childs play to frieza and laughable. Hell, vegeta used the same attack against frieza which had more power than the one he used on earth (planet destroying attack) and frieza laughed at it and kicked it back at vegeta with his 3 toes (and the blast made it out of orbit instantly). Frieza was able to accomplish this beause of power stacking, he was far more powerful. Frieza took out a village that had the same power level as raditz (and more powerful than moon busting roshi) with nothing but a kiss... do you want to know why... power stacking.
If you have seen the show or read the manga it is just stupid to say that a person far more powerful can't generate more power than someone weaker (that's when common sense come into play) and then, that's when you have to pick a starting point which is roshi low power (100) destroying the moon.
I shouldn't have to say any of this, you should already know this. That is like me saying that supergirl can generate the same amount of power as supes even though we know supes is more powerful.
I kind of have that feeling that you all don't want frieza beating thanos because that would place dbz characters in another tier...lol but in regrds to anime, there are a lot of bias but just like c-master said, its a comic book forum, what do you expect. Put all these fights and matches in the anime forum, it would be different.
Yea, that comes with the territory. I like both anime and comics (and a ton of other franchises), but I can see the argument on both ends.
First of all it is more fair to go by Manga and not by Anime since the Manga is canon with no filler.
However if something hasn't been shown then it can only be regarded as speculation (odd because some people arguing against Flash and Zoom (who backed up their feats no less) tried to say certain feats didn't count because of that). I have no problem myself with DBZ being planet busters, but what has Frieza done beyond that?
I did say Thanos because from what I've seen Thanos has handled planet busters before, and he's physically tough and intelligent. He doesn't have speed on his side however.
The main problem with these types of matches is comics and anime are a different entity and are scaled differently. Unless there is a painfully large gap it can be hard. Especially when the comic supporters use only the highest feats and want anime characters lower end feats or vice versa.
A planet busting blast doesn't mean that every blast after that in the series will be a planet buster IMO. The reason I say this is because Frieza *can* destroy a planet, but will he have the time here? Later on the characters can do more powerful things much quicker, but that doesn't mean they are planet busters. From a casual attack to a beam spam.
DBZ logic also might be a problem. In DBZ characters "hold back" and gradually power up. In this match they won't be doing that, they will fight at their best, much like Thanos will.
Some things to consider from both sides.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yea, that comes with the territory. I like both anime and comics (and a ton of other franchises), but I can see the argument on both ends.First of all it is more fair to go by Manga and not by Anime since the Manga is canon with no filler.
However if something hasn't been shown then it can only be regarded as speculation (odd because some people arguing against Flash and Zoom (who backed up their feats no less) tried to say certain feats didn't count because of that). I have no problem myself with DBZ being planet busters, but what has Frieza done beyond that?
I did say Thanos because from what I've seen Thanos has handled planet busters before, and he's physically tough and intelligent. He doesn't have speed on his side however.
The main problem with these types of matches is comics and anime are a different entity and are scaled differently. Unless there is a painfully large gap it can be hard. Especially when the comic supporters use only the highest feats and want anime characters lower end feats or vice versa.
A planet busting blast doesn't mean that every blast after that in the series will be a planet buster IMO. The reason I say this is because Frieza *can* destroy a planet, but will he have the time here? Later on the characters can do more powerful things much quicker, but that doesn't mean they are planet busters. From a casual attack to a beam spam.
DBZ logic also might be a problem. In DBZ characters "hold back" and gradually power up. In this match they won't be doing that, they will fight at their best, much like Thanos will.
Some things to consider from both sides.
Well, whatever akira approves of in my eyes is canon.
As for your post, what was it that you was expecting frieza to do to prove that he was higher at power than a mere planet buster? The guy was destroying planets with his fingers.
Then you have to take into consideration that the characters themselves were the narriator of the manga/anime and there was a lot of things that were said that gives us a pretty good description on how powerful frieza was. One... he was classified 3 times during his fight on namek as a universal threat (and you have to be more than a planetary threat). Then we have the instance where supreme ki was talking about how buu destroyed a galaxy and vegeta compared this galaxy destroying feat to friezas power.
Later on down the arc, after the frieza saga, people were screaming causing planetary destruction. They were so far above planetary that it was ridiculous.
I didn't understand the rest of your post. If someone can generate far more power than a planet buster and the gap is small, when you get in the millions, planet busting shouldn't even be acknowleged (which was proven when vegeta shot his planet busting attack at frieza and he kicked it away at his weakest).
Then you have to understand that these characters have complete control of their ki... you can't always base things off of the level of destruction because if that was the case, that would make roshi more powerful than vegeta.
Originally posted by carver9Anything that was filler wasn't canon.
Well, whatever akira approves of in my eyes is canon.As for your post, what was it that you was expecting frieza to do to prove that he was higher at power than a mere planet buster? The guy was destroying planets with his fingers.
Then you have to take into consideration that the characters themselves were the narriator of the manga/anime and there was a lot of things that were said that gives us a pretty good description on how powerful frieza was. One... he was classified 3 times during his fight on namek as a universal threat (and you have to be more than a planetary threat). Then we have the instance where supreme ki was talking about how buu destroyed a galaxy and vegeta compared this galaxy destroying feat to friezas power.
Later on down the arc, after the frieza saga, people were screaming causing planetary destruction. They were so far above planetary that it was ridiculous.
I didn't understand the rest of your post. If someone can generate far more power than a planet buster and the gap is small, when you get in the millions, planet busting shouldn't even be acknowleged (which was proven when vegeta shot his planet busting attack at frieza and he kicked it away at his weakest).
Then you have to understand that these characters have complete control of their ki... you can't always base things off of the level of destruction because if that was the case, that would make roshi more powerful than vegeta.
That's nice but characters that Thanos has faced were planet busters as well.
Yes, but a universal threat doesn't mean they can blow up the universe in an instant, simply that they have they are capable of being a threat to the universe, doesn't really go into detail on how they would accomplish that, no different than many villains being seen as a Global threat. Doesn't mean they can blow up the globe instantly, but more or less that they are a threat to the world as known.
What Galaxy Description are you talking about? Why didn't Buu simply blow up the galaxy seeing as he would regenerate from it. Why didn't Vegeta's self destruct do so, why did it leave a large crater seeing that he was stronger than Frieza and Cell at that point?
So where do the speculations stop. Do we just say they can blow up Galactus by speculation and stacking? I have no problem with the planet busting, but where are you placing Frieza? Abstract level?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Anything that was filler wasn't canon.That's nice but characters that Thanos has faced were planet busters as well.
Yes, but a universal threat doesn't mean they can blow up the universe in an instant, simply that they have they are capable of being a threat to the universe, doesn't really go into detail on how they would accomplish that, no different than many villains being seen as a Global threat. Doesn't mean they can blow up the globe instantly, but more or less that they are a threat to the world as known.
What Galaxy Description are you talking about? Why didn't Buu simply blow up the galaxy seeing as he would regenerate from it. Why didn't Vegeta's self destruct do so, why did it leave a large crater seeing that he was stronger than Frieza and Cell at that point?
So where do the speculations stop. Do we just say they can blow up Galactus by speculation and stacking? I have no problem with the planet busting, but where are you placing Frieza? Abstract level?
I don't agree with the filler as well (even though again, akira approved the anime).
The characters that thanos has faced are more than planet busters. Tyrant never displayed any type of power out put that makes me believe that he is a planet destroyer (I'm referring to depowered tyrant) but its pretty obvious that he was one due to his status.
I never said that frieza could destroy a universe but he was called a universal threat because of his power which means that he is a threat to the entire universe (which still doesn't mean that he can blast a universe to dust).
Frieza took over an galaxies and had galaxies following him, doing his bidding... do you honestly believe that a planetary threat can conquer galaxies?
Why would buu blow up the galaxy when he was looking for goku and vegeta? That's why he was going planet to planet, he was searching for goku and vegeta the entire time... he wanted to fight them. That's like me asking "when buu found goku and vegeta, why didn't he just blow up the galaxy". His purpose was to kill goku with his fist.
Why didn't vegeta self destruct do what? Blow up the planet? Its called contained and concentrated energy... it was focused in one spot... around vegeta. That's like me saying "why didn't surfer blast that shot thanos in the face didn't blow up the room or damage the chair that thanos was sitting on". That's like me saying "why was people with weak durability able to stand there and watch power gem thor and thanos fight? They must not have been strong because if they were the shockwaves from their punches would have at least destroyed pip. Why did thanos blast that hit thor only cause a barn fire? Do you see where I am getting at with this. We know thor punches with the gem was powerful just like we know their blast are powerful. I already answered everything for you anyways about their ki... they are able to control it... it doesn't always have to destroy planets for it to be more powerful than a planetary attack.
Answer this, which blast is more powerful... the blast that monarch hit prime with that hurt him but didn't even destroy a city or surfer planet destroying blast. Think before answering this.
I wouldn't place goku tier wise over frieza because even though goku is more powerful, frieza versatility was off the chain. Thanos is more versatile than frieza as well and he is powerful so tier wise, I would put him over frieza but that still doesn't mean that frieza can't beat him.
The buus, they didn't have a limitation... they were breaking through dimensions with their mouths, punches was ripping through space/time and the list goes on... I still wouldn't put any of them above skyfather, they are not versatile enough.
Yea but that's through more of a "corporation" if you will. He used a system to get to that level.
Yea but Vegeta's concentration should have done more damage if someone exponentially weaker than him could destroy the planet. But like I said earlier, a planet buster doesn't mean everything they do destroys planets. But a self destruction attack releases all of someone's power so it isn't the same as a technical attack. That's why Vegeta used it when he saw his fight was hopeless.
You would give Frieza a higher ranking over Goku?
Gotenks did the dimensional thing.
Originally posted by illadelph12
The anime is canon to the anime (including 'filler'😉, and the manga is canon to the manga. Is this Manga Frieza or Anime Frieza in this thread?