Originally posted by Impediment
This is a message to everyone:Calm down right now. Things are getting a little heated.
I contributed to it. I apologize. If it helps, I do not think any less of anyone, I was not offended by anything stated (actually, I now like that Zampano guy: he's pretty damn cool), nor was I pissed at anyone.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The shield has stopped a death eater trying to fly through it. Therefore it can stop Superman doing so with far greater force and momentum. This the very definition of the no limits fallacy. Assuming that because something hasn't been shown to have a limit that it has none is stupid and wrong. By that logic the Death Stars laser has never shown a limit to it's destructive capacity, therefore it can kill God. 😐I trust I don't need to tell why thats incorrect.
I also responded with this:
There is also the "no-limits fallacy" in reverse. It is the fallacy that assumes that there has to be a limit when no limit was imposed. It is the failed tool of those that are backed into a corner: you have no way around it so you pretend that it fits a fallacy when your very use of the no-limits fallacy argument also fits a different version of that same arguemnt: the limits fallacy.This in no way addresses what I stated and in fact, ignores it.
No physical limit was imposed on the shields and the only limitations were the magical ones.
That's because magic != physics.
Also, there WERE limits on what the lasers could do and it was clearly shown. They had a maximum distance and a clear "vaporization" effect on matter. So that's another bad comparison.
Also, you are commuting the limit fallacy: you are imposing rules of limits that do not exist on the metaphysical with the physical. Completely illogical.
The only proof I have is what Hermione said and that was that it was the physical (muggles can't do shit to it) and almost all magic. That's a very powerful shield. The ones on Hogwarts are multi-layered and even stronger.
I would agree that if this were Dr. Strange versus Hogwarts, it would be a stomp for Dr. Strange: his magical prowess should be more than enough to null the shield.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wrong again.Again you cling to your baseless assumption that superman cannot penetrate the shielding. There's only so many times I can prove you wrong on that point. I simply ignored it the first time becuase its so ridiculous and wrong I felt I needn't address it.
I will "cling" to fact. If you want to use false items in a debate, I will not get pissed about it: it's just a discussion.
You're still the same sexy Nephthys. 313
Originally posted by Nephthys
But if I must I will re-word. A-hem:'Its like saying that just because I cannot see Sue Storm and because she is hiding under one of her pitifully weak little energy shield that I will be unable to kill her with my nuclear warhead.'
Happy now?
That's definitely better, but we have an actual limit on Sue Storm's shield and we saw it broken.
If we never saw it broken by any means except psionics of greater power (psionics, in this comparison, are the equivalents of magic...if we are to keep in parallel with your analogy using Susan) and it was stated that her shield could not be broken by physical attacks. She also has to be invisible to all except those that have psionic perception abilities.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well as much as I'd like to argue your stance as well as my own, I think I'll pass on that. [b]Yousay they won't be able to see Hogwarts, burden of proof is one You.[/B]
It's just that I can't watch all 6 movies to find a small reference to keeping the muggles out. I do not own any of the movies nor do I wish to watch all 6 movies (there's a seventh, but it is pretty much impossible to see that on command.)
I figure that you could solve lots of problems if you watched it for us.
I agree that it is VERY douchy of me to ask you to prove my point, but it would address lots of your points without anyone having to do so as well as answering your question about a movie I saw years ago, one time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry pops, but you clearly need to re-read the concept, because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
You called me "pops." Teehee.
And, the opposite is true: you are putting limits on something that was unlimited.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because someone says something doesn't mean its true. Jesus. Otherwise Palpatine has unlimited power and every villian who says it is truely 'invincible.'
Except, in this case, it would be true and Hermione has no reason to argue. She was cautioning Harry and Ron about what it could do. That's much different than a villain boasting as he attacks someone that just defeated him in a duel.
That's also much different than a person saying, "The shot was taken at 4 miles." There's in movie expert statements and then there's boasting. All it takes is intelligence a bit above an 8-year-old: of which, you are DEFINITELY posses.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Try again, that is a no-limits fallacy. If God came along and tried to kill a wizards hopped up on luck potion, what do you think would happen? Do you really think that the wizards would get out of that shit on sheer luck? Face it, there are times when being lucky just isn't enough. Facing Superman, bloodlusted, is one of those times.There is no 'god' potion. It is magic. Magic can fail, as has been shown numerous times on screen.
Nope. It's unlimited. It is one of the rarest and most difficult potions to make for a reason. There are rules against using it because of how potent it is. It is a god-like potion. You don't remember me getting pissed at RJ for allowing that in his threads? I said it is stupid because it allows dumb magical children to defeat people like Dr. Manhattan and Palpatine. Don't you think that that is lame?
In other words, you cannot arbitrarily choose when a no-limits fallacy applies and when it doesn't with this exact scenario when it was specifically contradicted in the manner you are trying to impose a limit on.
I think if people are going to use HP in any versus threads, in order to test two people or a group of people against each other, you need to do several things:
Remove them from Hogwarts to get away from the shielding, invisibility, and electronic nullification.
Not allow Felix Felicis.
If Voldy is involved, pretend all of his horcuxes have been destroyed.
The only exception is if you are pitting the wizards against other magical beings of similar magical diversity.
For all we know, not even a big bang could disable the physical shields because the only weakness is very powerful magic.
Originally posted by iceman24567
I don't see the wizards having good enough reflexes to stop Superman or Hancock. Anybody remember the bank scene thats what it would be like
Actually, my friend, it would be worse: Hancock was in a significantly weakened form during the bank scene. 😄
Originally posted by marwash22
Ron is gonna get what he's always wanted, his head up Harry's ass.
Which head? 😖hifty:
Originally posted by The Nuul
RJ is the nice AC jr.That should be his new name. What do y'all think?
Sounds good. 👆
AC made some good points and was often logical. AC generally did not argue unless he was right about what point he was making. RJ is definitely much nicer than AC and both of them just never give up in a debate. So, I think it is fitting. 🙂
Edit - Though AC REALLY hates me because we had an argument RIGHT before he was banned and I told him that he was definitely going to get perma-banned and to just wait a couple of days and, boom, he was perma-banned for trolling a Hit-Girl thread (someone reported him, lol! It was not me.). I think he blames me for it or he thinks I went out of my way to get him banned or something. Not the case. Well, now you know.
Originally posted by marwash22
do you know what butthurt is?Seriously though, my question to you is: how is this battle foretold when these people don't exist in Harry Potter's universe? You're basically just making stuff up. There's nothing in any of the books or movies that even comes close to suggesting that things in other universes can be predicted. Your claim is even more ridiculous when you consider this isn't even a Marvel/DC-sub-universe... it's a completely made up scenario that none of the movies have ever covered.
Divination. Sybil Trelawney. Wiki it.
Originally posted by the ninjakIt doesn't matter where they're from, all that matters is that the battle will be foreseen by a Divination wizard long before the battle happens. The fact that the combatants are from different dimensions means nothing.
No RJ no hall of Prophecies. The other Characters come from alternate Dimensions. Not the same Earth hence why the Watcher collected them. Jeez that's prety obvious.
Big green Hulk smashing through the forbidden forest. Think about it. He'll be detected.
Thanks for playing.
Originally posted by dadudemonSuperman kills them before they even blink at his best from the comics. No reactions anywhere near as close to even mutter a word. I've seen the movies and seen how off most of these guys off and the lack of damage they generally seem to cause. Superman from the comics has planet shattering strength if he flicks Voldemort's head it is destroyed.
No he wouldn't. If this was post crisis comic supes, he'd lose even harder to the wizards because a canon to canon comparison has the wizards with much more magical spells, charms, curses at their disposal in addition to MUCH better explanations on how things work.Also, it is impossible for the Hancock team to win, ever, because Voldemort made himself imortal and the ONLY way to destroy his shit is to destroy his Horcruxes with very powerful MAGIC...none of which the Hancock team has.
So I amend my statement that removing those things would result in a landslide victory for supers and co...they can never win as long as Voldy is around: they have no way to kill him.
😐
I mean he's faced far more powerful sorcerers in Mordru and Arion and while handicapped against them mauls these guys.
If his body is destroyed he can't just immediately come back there's also a process involved just like in the movies so they still win. 🙂
Originally posted by Rogue JediThe wizards are already dead. If this is so easy to do why can't they easily kill Harry Potter ? LOL. The wizards aren't portrayed anywhere near this powerful in their own movies whereas hancock and superman are in a different league.
Pfft, Superman is transfigured into a thumbtack, indo thread.
Originally posted by quanchi112crylaugh I literally LOL whenever someone says this.
The wizards are already dead.
No. The hall of prophesies warns them far before the attack happens. Trelawney predicts the battle happening. Hulk is detected as he tramples through the forbidden forest. Supes and Hancock are detected as they fly above Hogwarts (as per the OP.) Pick one. When the heroes attack, the death eaters and the OOTP are ready and are all flying around, as puffs of smoke, invisible, invulnerable to any and all attacks the heroes throw their way.
"The wizards are already dead" haermm PRICELESS.
If this is so easy to do why can't they easily kill Harry Potter ? LOL.Oh wow, did you actually just ask that?
Doesn't matter. Every wizard power quoted here is shown in the movies. WHY they didn't use them in certain ways is besides the point.
The wizards aren't portrayed anywhere near this powerful in their own movies whereas hancock and superman are in a different league.
The wizards can: half apparate. Go invisible while half apparating. Fully apparate. Use confundus. Do everything else said in this thread.
Originally posted by Rogue JediThey are too fast and like I stated in the movies the good guys and bad guys can't prevent their own deaths or fates. This isn't how they are potrayed whereas hancock and superman are portrayed as just well above everyone else and extremely durable.
crylaugh I literally LOL whenever someone says this.No. The hall of prophesies warns them far before the attack happens. Trelawney predicts the battle happening. Hulk is detected as he tramples through the forbidden forest. Supes and Hancock are detected as they fly above Hogwarts (as per the OP.) Pick one. When the heroes attack, the death eaters and the OOTP are ready and are all flying around, as puffs of smoke, invisible, invulnerable to any and all attacks the heroes throw their way.
"The wizards are already dead" haermm PRICELESS.
Oh wow, did you actually just ask that?
Doesn't matter. Every wizard power quoted here is shown in the movies. WHY they didn't use them in certain ways is besides the point.
The wizards can: half apparate. Go invisible while half apparating. Fully apparate. Use confundus. Do everything else said in this thread.
Yes, I actually asked that as I have seen these fools fight in a coffee shop missing left and right. Why didn't the ministry use these so called tactics against Voldemort or Voldemort use them against the ministry ?
LOL. You are attempting every which radical theory you can and they all fall short.
They are dead far before that their reactions are like snails compared to light speed.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Wtf is this garbage?Superman can throw Hogwarts into OUTER ****ING SPACE.
That's a VERY good point and one of the most objective and sound points made. (Same point I made to RJ, a few years back.)
But...
And as he tries to lift it, 'avada kedavra', end thread.
That or he is transfigured into a +50 strength "Spoon of Might!" I would definitely equip my shit with that spoon. I would create a Campbell's soup massacre with that spoon, no doubt.
Originally posted by quanchi112Invisible flying wizards that the heroes cannot harm. Think about it. Wizards that will be ready when the attack happens.
They are too fast and like I stated in the movies the good guys and bad guys can't prevent their own deaths or fates. This isn't how they are potrayed whereas hancock and superman are portrayed as just well above everyone else and extremely durable.Yes, I actually asked that as I have seen these fools fight in a coffee shop missing left and right. Why didn't the ministry use these so called tactics against Voldemort or Voldemort use them against the ministry ?
LOL. You are attempting every which radical theory you can and they all fall short.
They are dead far before that their reactions are like snails compared to light speed.
What part don't you understand?
@ Dadudeman.
I also responded with this:[quote]
There is also the "no-limits fallacy" in reverse. It is the fallacy that assumes that there has to be a limit when no limit was imposed. It is the failed tool of those that are backed into a corner: you have no way around it so you pretend that it fits a fallacy when your very use of the no-limits fallacy argument also fits a different version of that same arguemnt: the limits fallacy.This in no way addresses what I stated and in fact, ignores it.
[/quote]
Theres no such thing. I don't wish to call you a liar because I know you're a decent guy, but....... you just made that up on the spot. There is no such thing as the limits fallacy. There is such a thing as the no-limits fallacy however.
The No-Limits Fallacy
The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.
The No-Limits Fallacy Pt.2.
No - limits fallacy. This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."
The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe, Itachi was lying or bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.
You see, on this forum and in, well, logic we do not assume that something is invincible and omnipotent unless it is shown to be or has some esoteric ability that renders it as such and has actually be proven to be. It is a rank fallacy to assume that the shield can repel teh force Superman can muster, without having done either of those things. So don't say it can. Shut up. Or post some fricking proof that it can repel him. Show me some ****ing on-screen proof that the shield is either of such a nature that physical attacks are worthless against it, or that the shield is of such a strength as to stop Superman from penetrating it. Because if you cannot do either...... just drop the point.
Also, there WERE limits on what the lasers could do and it was clearly shown. They had a maximum distance and a clear "vaporization" effect on matter. So that's another bad comparison.
And there are limits to what magic can do. Magic can often fail or have no effect, see Ron's pathetic attempts at a cast a levitation charm. Magic itself, the thing of which the shield is made out of, has limits. No wizard is omnipotent, and it is a fallacy to say that a shield created by one would be.
Also, you are commuting the limit fallacy: you are imposing rules of limits that do not exist on the metaphysical with the physical. Completely illogical.
Firstly, there still isn't a 'limits fallacy'. Secondly, the shield itself is physical in its effects. Death Eaters bounced off it. Every barrier can be penetrated, every shield can buckle. Unless something is demonstratably invincible, it...... isn't. Understand?
The only proof I have is what Hermione said
Then I suggest you drop teh point. Hermione is a fallable character who can be ' lying or bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.' She has never seen something with Supermans force attempt to get past the shield, therefore, she has no authority to be saying that he would be unable. It's very simple: Show, don't tell. Characters can be wrong, reality cannot. Show me on-screen proof.
The ones on Hogwarts are multi-layered and even stronger.
Wait, this sentence implies that she wasnt even talking about the Hogwarts shields.
😐
If thats true then I suggest you gtfo of here with that shit man.
That's definitely better, but we have an actual limit on Sue Storm's shield and we saw it broken.
If we never saw it broken by any means except psionics of greater power (psionics, in this comparison, are the equivalents of magic...if we are to keep in parallel with your analogy using Susan) and it was stated that her shield could not be broken by physical attacks. She also has to be invisible to all except those that have psionic perception abilities.
No she wouldn't. See above for why, I can't be bothered to re-type it.
It's just that I can't watch all 6 movies to find a small reference to keeping the muggles out. I do not own any of the movies nor do I wish to watch all 6 movies (there's a seventh, but it is pretty much impossible to see that on command.)
I figure that you could solve lots of problems if you watched it for us.
I agree that it is VERY douchy of me to ask you to prove my point, but it would address lots of your points without anyone having to do so as well as answering your question about a movie I saw years ago, one time.
Well when you put it like that....
No. 😐
You called me "pops." Teehee.And, the opposite is true: you are putting limits on something that was unlimited.
You called me son.
No I'm not. Becuase the shield is not unlimited nor has it been proven to be.
Except, in this case, it would be true and Hermione has no reason to argue. She was cautioning Harry and Ron about what it could do. That's much different than a villain boasting as he attacks someone that just defeated him in a duel.
Actually we're talking about teh Felix Felicus here. 😉
Slughorn was clearly speaking in hyperbole when he said 'you will succeed in your every endevour' because otherwise any wizard can just drink some and be God by morning. 😐
Again, you are trying to remove limits from something which logically has them.
Nope. It's unlimited. It is one of the rarest and most difficult potions to make for a reason. There are rules against using it because of how potent it is. It is a god-like potion.
Well if thats the case then you can actually prove this with on-screen evidence then.
Nope? Didn't think so.
For all we know, not even a big bang could disable the physical shields because the only weakness is very powerful magic.
Except we don't know shit and we can't prove that it the case. But if you'd like to try, go right ahead....
]That's a VERY good point and one of the most objective and sound points made. (Same point I made to RJ, a few years back.)
But...
And as he tries to lift it, 'avada kedavra', end thread.
That or he is transfigured into a +50 strength "Spoon of Might!" I would definitely equip my shit with that spoon. I would create a Campbell's soup massacre with that spoon, no doubt.
No it isn't. It still assumes that the invisibility, shield etc will be uneffective, just as all the team 1 supporters have since page one. In fact, that scenario has been suggested before in this thread, multiple times. 😐
If a wizard tries to hit him with a Death Spell..... well they won't. Lightspeed and the ability to hear them cast teh spell nullifies any chance they have. Avada Kadava has failed to hit a pasty, teenaged british twit in Harry Potter, how the hell do you expect it'll hit mother****ing Superman?
Nothing suggests wizards can transfigure something with Supermans durability.Try again.
You're reaching, dude. Their smoke forms stay together while in mid flight, they'll stay together if blown away.
This is one of the stupidest things you've ever posted. By that logic, my body stays togther when I walk, therefore Superman would be unable to splatter me across the pavement. Becuase y'know, if something stays together then it cannot be parted, ever.
Smoke, being far less dense, and, well, just a bunch of particles flying in unison, completely un-attatched to each other, can logically be parted with far less difficulty, like say, one of Superman's sneezes.
OK, but he still can't harm them.
Yes, yes he can.
Again, Their smoke forms stay together while in mid flight, they'll stay together if blown away.
He doesn't have to blow them away to kill them btw (not that that wouldn't work, because it would). Flying through them at lightspeed should do the trick.
Yes, they really really will. Hall of prophesies warns of the attack, like it or not. Plus you think they won't detect Hulk's big ass trampling through the forest?
No it doesn't retard. Hall of Prophecies is something they actually have to go to befor the attack to gather information about said attack. It's Prep, which the wizards do not get in this thread.
The fight starts with, as per the OP 'They are there. Supes and Hancock in the sky Hulk and Abomination just outside the grounds.'
Supes will kill every wizard in the place before Hulk even takes a single step.
Do you even know what the hall of prophecies is?
Do you? How will the wizards even know they have to check the hall of prophecies? How can you possibly know that there even is a prophecy about the attack ther? No wait, better question, how can you prove that there is? Becuase you can't. Because teh hall of prophecies has NOTHING to do with this thread.
If not in the past, then Trelawney will sense the pending danger in time.
Are you ****ing serious? Like, seriously, do you know, ANYTHING, about HP? Trelawney is the. Single. ****ing. Worst. Prophet. EVER! She's made two real prophecies. Two. The school has been attacked about seven goddamn times, and she didn't predict jack shit about any of those ****ing times. She is really, really not an issue.
Plus predicting the attack would require prep, which the wizards do not have. 😐
Pfft, Superman is transfigured into a thumbtack, indo thread.
They're already dead. They cannot react to lightspeed, nor can they possibly hope to hit Superman even if they do. It would be like pointing a snail at a bullet thats just been fired from a gun and telling him to intercept it. No. Fricking. Way.
No. The hall of prophesies warns them far before the attack happens.
No it doesn't. No prep.
Trelawney predicts the battle happening.
No she won't. She couldn't predict her way out of a paper bag. And again, No. Prep.
Hulk is detected as he tramples through the forbidden forest.
He starts at the edge of the grounds and the fight is over before they detect him. Also, detect him with what? ****ing trip-wires? Seriously, do you think tehy all have super-hearing or something? They won't detech anything till he smashes through their wall.
Supes and Hancock are detected as they fly above Hogwarts (as per the OP.)
Again, with what? How can they see human-shaped objects at teh edge of the grounds at NOON.
When the heroes attack, the death eaters and the OOTP are ready and are all flying around, as puffs of smoke, invisible, invulnerable to any and all attacks the heroes throw their way.
They get no prep you goddamn illiterate chimpanzee. They have no time to prepare. They have no time to detect. They have no time to cast any spell, check any prophecies, predict any attack, they have no time to do ANYTHING.
I cannot believe that after 10 ****ing pages you havn't grasped this concept yet. Jesus ****ing christ......
Oh wow, did you actually just ask that?
Its a very valid question. The Death Eaters coldn't catch Harry on the flying motorbike, nor any of his clones. What makes you think they'll do jack shit to Superman flying around at lightspeed?
The wizards can: half apparate. Go invisible while half apparating. Fully apparate. Use confundus. Do everything else said in this thread.
They can't do any of that. Not before they die.