Lloyd Irving vs Link

Whoa, whoa. Slow down. Are you saying that ball Ganon shoots at Link is moving at light speeds? Based off of nothing more than the fact that his charge up animation for it looks like electricity? Or some zap animations play when it hits?

Come on people, it's a magic ball. He isn't shooting straight up lighting, that's ridiculous. Like the other guy points out, it's a glowing magic BALL.

That jelly thing in jabu jabu's stomach shot lighting. See the difference?

It's just a magic attack that uses electrical animations to make it look cool. Nothing more.

Oh, wait. One moa thing!

Lloyd actual DOES have a feat to match that that I forgot about till just now. And it's in story line, not game play. AND it's actual lighting, NOT a ball we think might be considered lightning.

Go to 1:44 of this video. Lloyd does just what Link does with actual lightning except he doesn't shoot it back. Keep watching, he does it a couple times, so it isn't a fluke or anything.

Oh, spoiler warning for this video too. Just so you know...

YouTube video

Cool, Lloyd might be able to keep up. Link doing so is also part of the storyline though, shit's mandatory. >|

Any strength feat to let him hurt Link, or durability feat to survive a hit?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I'm sorry but its on-screen. It happens. We can't just ignore it and say, 'it gives him a new power and thats so unfwair.' It's in the damn game. We are not giving him a new power anyway, we are making sense of an already existing one. Ganon chucks those things around no matter what. What we are trying to decide upon is simply what it is that he chucks around. And given overwhelming evidence (it is electricity, it produces sparks and shit, its a ball, it moves at a speed consistent with ball lightning etc) I really have no choice but to deduce that its Ball Lightning.

And besides, according to Scream Ganon has been using lightning-based attacks for 20 years. It's not a new power at all.

I'm not saying to ignore it. I'm saying to treat it like the actual lightning that it is. Because Paste is right, Ball Lightning is something we know literally nothing about.

If you'd notice in my last post, I did not say Ball Lightning is a new attack. I said that if the attack is Ball Lightning, then all possible explanations for it can be applied to it since nobody is sure what the real cause is. And all of the explanations for the phenomenon that I have seen either do not fit the situation that Ganon and Link are in, or require something that isn't there and would therefore give Ganon a new power. The ability to create black holes is just one of those powers you might give him.

Once again, not what I said.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh, wait. One moa thing!

Lloyd actual DOES have a feat to match that that I forgot about till just now. And it's in story line, not game play. AND it's actual lighting, NOT a ball we think might be considered lightning.

Go to 1:44 of this video. Lloyd does just what Link does with actual lightning except he doesn't shoot it back. Keep watching, he does it a couple times, so it isn't a fluke or anything.

Oh, spoiler warning for this video too. Just so you know...

YouTube video

That's a good feat for Lloyd. That is actually a straight shot of lightning and Lloyd successfully blocked it. That's impressive because the previous character was shoot by the same lightning and couldn't do anything about it. Hell, it was killed/defeated by it. So I suppose that makes Lloyd durable enough to deflect lightning attacks.

And I'm with Tac and Nephthys on this one. I see no reason to think that that magic orb is moving at light speed just because its animation features sparks around it. Everything in that scene is moving at a normal speed phase. Even Lloyd's lightning moves faster than that magic ball. When Link is reflecting those magic orbs at that guy Ganon, everything moves at normal speed, there isn't any indication that the gameplay or scenery is slowed down for the players. The entire battle is placed in real time.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's a good feat for Lloyd. That is actually a straight shot of lightning and Lloyd successfully blocked it. That's impressive because the previous character was shoot by the same lightning and couldn't do anything about it. Hell, it was killed/defeated by it. So I suppose that makes Lloyd durable enough to deflect lightning attacks.

And I'm with Tac and Nephthys on this one. I see no reason to think that that magic orb is moving at light speed just because its animation features sparks around it. Everything in that scene is moving at a normal speed phase. Even Lloyd's lightning moves faster than that magic ball. When Link is reflecting those magic orbs at that guy Ganon, everything moves at normal speed, there isn't any indication that the gameplay or scenery is slowed down for the players. The entire battle is placed in real time.

Gameplay speed =/= Actual speed. Otherwise there'd be a lot of failures of bullet timers out there, even Zeus in GoW's lightning is slower in gameplay than actual lightning and he is the embodiment of lightning himself, Ganondorf's canonicly been using full speed lightning since 1991, there's no reason he'd intentionally weaken one of the keystones of his powerset. IE, Ganondorf would have to lose on purpose for your agument to be valid. He didn't. The only thing any of you have cited to try and discredit the feat is a gameplay section, gameplay lightning cannot move at full speed because then the player cannot react to it.

Stop trying to downplay the feat, if people want to debate, bring out Lloyd's feats. He has a decent reaction / durability feat there. Durability wise it's not going to help him, though, so does anyone have a better one for durability?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Gameplay speed =/= Actual speed. Otherwise there'd be a lot of failures of bullet timers out there, even Zeus in GoW's lightning is slower in gameplay than actual lightning and he is the embodiment of lightning himself, Ganondorf's canonicly been using full speed lightning since 1991, there's no reason he'd intentionally weaken one of the keystones of his powerset. IE, Ganondorf would have to lose on purpose for your agument to be valid. He didn't. The only thing any of you have cited to try and discredit the feat is a gameplay section, gameplay lightning cannot move at full speed because then the player cannot react to it.

Players can still miss the button to block that orb, though. You would have an argument if the scene would be slowed down and placed on a different time atmosphere for the players. Unfortunately, that isn't the case.

Maybe Ganon can use full speed lighting, but he didn't. That wasn't lighting, it was a magic ball. If it were lighting, it would have looked like what Lloyd blocked, or what that parasite jelly fish shoots.

Ganons skill set changes each game. That makes it more interesting. If he did the same exact attacks every time you ever faced him in a Zelda game, it would be boring. Maybe Ganon used lightning before, but he didn't in that fight.

As for Lloyds durability. His physical abilities are above a normal humans. I've seen no good reason to think Links are.

...you ever played a Zelda game at all?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Players can still miss the button to block that orb, though. You would have an argument if the scene would be slowed down and placed on a different time atmosphere for the players. Unfortunately, that isn't the case.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Maybe Ganon can use full speed lighting, but he didn't. That wasn't lighting, it was a magic ball. If it were lighting, it would have looked like what Lloyd blocked, or what that parasite jelly fish shoots.

Ganons skill set changes each game. That makes it more interesting. If he did the same exact attacks every time you ever faced him in a Zelda game, it would be boring. Maybe Ganon used lightning before, but he didn't in that fight.

As for Lloyds durability. His physical abilities are above a normal humans. I've seen no good reason to think Links are.

No reason to believe Link's are? I agree with Moo, ever played a Zelda game? His strength is in the gigajoule range, his durability is just as high. We have a cutscene of Ganon in OoT disarming Link without crushing his arm, a normal man would have evaporated. We have Link chucking massive pillars, moving heavy blocks, ect. And reflecting lightning with sword swings, can Lloyd compare to that or not?

I can't think of a single Zelda game I have played where Link is even Peak Human at his best.

Not agreeing with Tac. Means Link's best is always above Peak Human. Too late to edit.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You would have an argument if you weren't citing a gameplay mechanic. But you are, there's nothing to discredit it. Also, 1998. 😐 And Zelda games have never bothered with all that flashy slowmo crap. Even when time is legitimately slowed in Majora's Mask.

So you admit there's nothing indicating that the scene has been slowed down for the players. Cool, because everything, as I said, was placed in real time in that fight.

Reread the post, mah boi, even in games that game after OoT, slow mo effects simply do not happen. In MM you could legitimately slow the flow of time by half and the change was not visible.

You have no argument, you cite a gameplay mechanic. GG, thanks for playing. 😬 Either come back with a feat for Lloyd or come up with something better than the gameplay speed.

Okay, you give me no reason to think that the magical orb was moving at super-speed then. I mean, you say the orb is moving at super-speed just because the orb is moving at super-speed. That's literally your argument.

And why I'm citing a gameplay mechanic?

Actually the argument is that, since Ganon has been shown using Lightning for his attacks since Zelda games have been around, this counts as a serious Lightning attack because Ganon is not going to hamper his own attack so that he can lose on purpose.

Then it follows that since most people can't react to lightning (I can, it's fun) it simply looks slower, but in canon it would not be. He shot lightning, Link reacted to it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Okay, you give me no reason to think that the magical orb was moving at super-speed then. I mean, you say the orb is moving at super-speed just because the orb is moving at super-speed. That's literally your argument.

And why I'm citing a gameplay mechanic?

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Actually the argument is that, since Ganon has been shown using Lightning for his attacks since Zelda games have been around, this counts as a serious Lightning attack because Ganon is not going to hamper his own attack so that he can lose on purpose.

Then it follows that since most people can't react to lightning (I can, it's fun) it simply looks slower, but in canon it would not be. He shot lightning, Link reacted to it.

Those were the same attacks? Tac said this was Ocarina of Time Link. And if that guy had attacks much faster than this one in other games and players could still play, then why are you guys saying this one has been slowed down? Where is your evidence that the developers had that fight slowed down? There's no indication of such. It is in real time.

True, normal people wouldn't be able to track a lightning bolt coming at them with their eyes and then successfully defend against it (Lloyd did). However, this is far from being a lightning bolt. It's just a floating magical electric orb that can be reflected back and forth. Trust me, if that attack was really meant to be super fast, then the developers would have done it for that purpose.

All I know is that the attack moves a lot faster in cutscene than it does in gameplay.

YouTube video

1:50. Please note that this is Ganondorf before he gains the Triforce of Power, and thus this attack was unamped, yet Young Link still couldn't react to it. Given that around this time Young Link was probably dodging Barinade's lightning, it lends credence to the speed theory. Later, both Link and Ganondorf are at their best, and Ganondorf is amped by the Triforce. I see no reason for Ganondorf to use an attack that was slower than one he uses while not amped by the Triforce.

I just explained why his attack would be slower. Because it's a new game. The developers aren't going to have Ganon shooting full speed lightning every single game if they don't want him to.

Your one and only defense for this ball being lightning is that he shot lightning in OTHER GAMES. They did not, however, have him do it in THIS ONE. So, yes, by the looks of it, technically Ganon is a moron in OoT because he had better attacks, but he simply didn't use them. Why? Because the developers didn't have him use them. The developers don't have to give Ganon the same attacks in each game. It might be wise on their part to keep his abilities consistent, but THEY DON'T HAVE TO IF THEY DON'T WANT TO. So if you see an attack Ganon pulls out in a later game that is worse than stuff he did before, you cannot simply add states to power up the attack to where YOU think it should be.

Bottom line, there is NO indication time slows down, there is NO indication the ball is moving any faster than it is on the screen, there is NO indication it is anything other than a magic ball. Sure it cracks when it hits you. The effects placed on it look like electricity. Maybe the ball is electrical in nature. That doesn't mean it moves as fast as lightning. In Tails of Symphonia, you get a magic ring that shoots little balls of electricity. By your argument, since it sparks and zaps like electricity, it MUST me moving the speed of a bolt of lightning, right?

Of course not. This is a video game, things can, and do, work differently.

Also, Link has higher strength thanks to the gauntlets, but he himself is a normal guy. In fact, I'm pretty sure strength is the only thing he has higher than normal. He gets the Triforce, but it isn't clear exactly what that does for him.