Originally posted by GrieverSquallThis is not how it works, again all you cite is a gameplay mechanic, saying "trust me", and then telling everyone what the devs would do, except we know they wouldn't. In Majora's Mask, you literally slow down time, and the change is not visible in gameplay, do you comprehend this? This comes after OoT, the only thing slow about the attack at all is the gameplay, we have a cutscene by Scenario showing the attack is far faster before Ganondorf even gains his power, why, praytell, would it be slow? Ganondorf would have to lose on purpose, that is it.
Those were the same attacks? Tac said this was Ocarina of Time Link. And if that guy had attacks much faster than this one in other games and players could still play, then why are you guys saying this one has been slowed down? Where is your evidence that the developers had that fight slowed down? There's no indication of such. It is in real time.True, normal people wouldn't be able to track a lightning bolt coming at them with their eyes and then successfully defend against it (Lloyd did). However, this is far from being a lightning bolt. It's just a floating magical electric orb that can be reflected back and forth. Trust me, if that attack was really meant to be super fast, then the developers would have done it for that purpose.
Link tracked a lightning attack with his eyes and /deflected it back/, Lloyd appears to have stood infront of it and stopped it with his hand or something, couldn't see from behind him.
Originally posted by The ScenarioThank you, Scenario.
All I know is that the attack moves a lot faster in cutscene than it does in gameplay.1:50. Please note that this is Ganondorf before he gains the Triforce of Power, and thus this attack was unamped, yet Young Link still couldn't react to it. Given that around this time Young Link was probably dodging Barinade's lightning, it lends credence to the speed theory. Later, both Link and Ganondorf are at their best, and Ganondorf is amped by the Triforce. I see no reason for Ganondorf to use an attack that was slower than one he uses while not amped by the Triforce.
Young Link: Dodges Barinade's attack, doesn't dodge Ganon's. Ganon and Link both are significantly more powerful end game, whatcha think, Tac, Griever?
Originally posted by TacDaveyNo, you speculated why, based on nothing but a gameplay mechanic, you're denying a feat.
I just explained why his attack would be slower. Because it's a new game. The developers aren't going to have Ganon shooting full speed lightning every single game if they don't want him to.Your one and only defense for this ball being lightning is that he shot lightning in OTHER GAMES. They did not, however, have him do it in THIS ONE. So, yes, by the looks of it, technically Ganon is a moron in OoT because he had better attacks, but he simply didn't use them. Why? Because the developers didn't have him use them. The developers don't have to give Ganon the same attacks in each game. It might be wise on their part to keep his abilities consistent, but THEY DON'T HAVE TO IF THEY DON'T WANT TO. So if you see an attack Ganon pulls out in a later game that is worse than stuff he did before, you cannot simply add states to power up the attack to where YOU think it should be.
Bottom line, there is NO indication time slows down, there is NO indication the ball is moving any faster than it is on the screen, there is NO indication it is anything other than a magic ball. Sure it cracks when it hits you. The effects placed on it look like electricity. Maybe the ball is electrical in nature. That doesn't mean it moves as fast as lightning. In Tails of Symphonia, you get a magic ring that shoots little balls of electricity. By your argument, since it sparks and zaps like electricity, it MUST me moving the speed of a bolt of lightning, right?
Of course not. This is a video game, things can, and do, work differently.
Also, Link has higher strength thanks to the gauntlets, but he himself is a normal guy. In fact, I'm pretty sure strength is the only thing he has higher than normal. He gets the Triforce, but it isn't clear exactly what that does for him.
Negative, look at the rest of the game. Even Ganon's non-lightning attacks are much faster outside of gameplay before he has his source of power. You cannot cite developer intentions you have no clue about, all you're doing is looking at a gameplay mechanic and saying "but it moves slower than lightning in gameplay". By this standard, no bullet moves at bullet speed. 😐
Bottom line, there is NO indication time slows down, there is NO indication the ball is moving any faster than it is on the screen, there is NO indication it is anything other than a magic ball. Sure it cracks when it hits you. The effects placed on it look like electricity. Maybe the ball is electrical in nature. That doesn't mean it moves as fast as lightning. In Tails of Symphonia, you get a magic ring that shoots little balls of electricity. By your argument, since it sparks and zaps like electricity, it MUST me moving the speed of a bolt of lightning, right?Have you /ever/ played a Zelda game? I keep explaining this point, there is NEVER slowmotion bullshit in Zelda games, even when TIME ITSELF is slowed down. Ganondorf's attacks in this game are faster in cutscenes, lightning by it's VERY NATURE moves fast, why would he use his magic to slow it down? Seriously, your argument hinges on this, come up with a reason that isn't "because it moves slowly in gameplay", that is NOT an argument. Stop trying to downplay a valid feat, it is not a valid way to debate. The only times Ganon's lightning attack is slowed is when the human player needs to deflect it, young Link dodges barinade early in the game and cannot react to Ganon's first attack, GEE. This is a consistent part of Ganondorf's power set, you're trying to ignore that. Link handles lightning throughout nearly every Zelda game, so often there's a case to be made on consistency alone, infact, twice or more in OoT alone, and you ignore that, your ONLY argument is there's no indication the gameplay is slower, when a cutscene in the exact same game indicates exactly that and as I KEEP telling you guys, even when time is slowed in Zelda games, the change is not visible in gameplay. Holy crap, is it this hard to wrap your mind around?
Of course not. This is a video game, things can, and do, work differently.Yes, so we should just ignore all evidence in favour of downplaying the other character? /eyeroll.Also, Link has higher strength thanks to the gauntlets, but he himself is a normal guy. In fact, I'm pretty sure strength is the only thing he has higher than normal. He gets the Triforce, but it isn't clear exactly what that does for him.
Ever even read my posts? Link in Ocarina of Time survives having his sword knocked from his hand by Ganon who is even stronger than himself, he reflects lightning, and you have yet to come up with a valid way to disprove that, either come up with something that isn't based on gameplay or gtfo, and yes, his strength is significantly higher. Lloyd needs a godly strength feat just to harm Link based on the block in that cutscene.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Like I said before, Link is above Peak Human at his worst in just about every Zelda game.
I don't see that. He usually needs weapons or magic items to allow him to do anything above human.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, you [b]speculated why, based on nothing but a gameplay mechanic, you're denying a feat.Negative, look at the rest of the game. Even Ganon's non-lightning attacks are much faster outside of gameplay before he has his source of power. You cannot cite developer intentions you have no clue about, all you're doing is looking at a gameplay mechanic and saying "but it moves slower than lightning in gameplay". By this standard, no bullet moves at bullet speed. 😐
Have you /ever/ played a Zelda game? I keep explaining this point, there is NEVER slowmotion bullshit in Zelda games, even when TIME ITSELF is slowed down. Ganondorf's attacks in this game are faster in cutscenes, lightning by it's VERY NATURE moves fast, why would he use his magic to slow it down? Seriously, your argument hinges on this, come up with a reason that isn't "because it moves slowly in gameplay", that is NOT an argument. Stop trying to downplay a valid feat, it is not a valid way to debate. The only times Ganon's lightning attack is slowed is when the human player needs to deflect it, young Link dodges barinade early in the game and cannot react to Ganon's first attack, GEE. This is a consistent part of Ganondorf's power set, you're trying to ignore that. Link handles lightning throughout nearly every Zelda game, so often there's a case to be made on consistency alone, infact, twice or more in OoT alone, and you ignore that, your ONLY argument is there's no indication the gameplay is slower, when a cutscene in the exact same game indicates exactly that and as I KEEP telling you guys, even when time is slowed in Zelda games, the change is not visible in gameplay. Holy crap, is it this hard to wrap your mind around?
Yes, so we should just ignore all evidence in favour of downplaying the other character? /eyeroll.
Ever even read my posts? Link in Ocarina of Time survives having his sword knocked from his hand by Ganon who is even stronger than himself, he reflects lightning, and you have yet to come up with a valid way to disprove that, either come up with something that isn't based on gameplay or gtfo, and yes, his strength is significantly higher. Lloyd needs a godly strength feat just to harm Link based on the block in that cutscene. [/B]
No, it is YOU who is hinging your points off of baseless speculation. There is no evidence that ball is moving as fast as lightning. None. You ASSUME it must be because he did it in past games and you ASSUME it is lightning because it has crackle effects placed on it. You are drawing radical conclusions without the necessary evidence to back it up.
Here's another alternative. It's a magic ball that doesn't move as fast as lightning and has crackle effects placed on it.
Now that sounds far more logical than:
It's lightning, but it looks like a ball, and it moves as fast as lightning but time actually slows down when he shoots it even though there is no evidence of this in the game.
Ockhams Razor states that the simpler explanation for something is the more logical. Your explanation requires much more baseless assumption than mine does. Just look at the two lined up.
Let's dissect your argument further.
You claim that the ball must be moving at light speeds because either it is actually lightning that just looks like a ball for unexplained reasons, or because it is electrical in nature, and anything that is electrical in nature must move at light speeds.
The first part is easily discredited. Earlier in the same game Barinade shot electricity. Why, then, does Ganon's look like a ball and Barinades doesn't? The answer is easy. They aren't the same. Barinade is electricity stored up and shot out and Ganon's is a magic ball.
So we know it isn't actually lightning he is throwing. But what about the second alternative?
Again, easily discredited. Obviously anything that has electrical effects placed on it does not necessarily move at light speeds. The example from Tales of Symphonia illustrates this quite nicely. It doesn't take a logician to figure out that the simple act of having something be electrical in nature absolutely always makes it move at lightning speeds.
One more
You claim that Ganon shot full speed lightning in past games, so he must in this one. I've already responded to this one. Ganon has a whole host of abilities from all the games he's been in. yet he only uses two f them in that fight. As I said before, Ganon doesn't have to use all his abilities. He fights how the developers want him to fight, not how YOU think he should fight. So it isn't necessary that Ganon use full speed lightning in this fight. After all, he has tons of other abilities that doesn't use.
So with these examples we see that Ganon doesn't NECESSARILY have to shoot a light speed electrical ball. There is another possible explanation. And in this case, the second explanation is far more simple and requires less explanation, making it the more logical.
Once more quickly summarized. Your theory requires the added explanation of a shift in the speed of time which can not be seen, nor proven. As well as the added mystery of why the lightning in question looks like a ball. Whereas MY theory is just as sound, and does NOT require added explanations of any kind. Namely, that it is simply a magic ball that has crackle effects on it. Ockhams Razor does the rest.
As for Link having the sword knocked from his hand, that proves nothing. The attack didn't fully land on Link, it only skid him enough to knock the sword out of his hand. Had the attack actually hit, Link would have been severely wounded or dead.
So while Link may be stronger than Lloyd thanks to his gauntlets, that isn't enough to give the victory to Link.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is not how it works, again all you cite is a gameplay mechanic, saying "trust me", and then telling everyone what the devs would do, except we know they wouldn't. In Majora's Mask, you literally slow down time, and the change is not visible in gameplay, do you comprehend this? This comes after OoT, the only thing slow about the attack at all is the gameplay, we have a cutscene by Scenario showing the attack is far faster before Ganondorf even gains his power, why, praytell, would it be slow? Ganondorf would have to lose on purpose, that is it.Link tracked a lightning attack with his eyes and /deflected it back/, Lloyd appears to have stood infront of it and stopped it with his hand or something, couldn't see from behind him. Thank you, Scenario.
What? You are the one saying the developers slowed down an attack for the players, so the one using gameplay as defense here is you. I'm simply saying there's no indication of such. Hell, the whole fight from where that supposed 'feat' comes is gameplay, and I AM the one citing gameplay? Give me a break. Why do you keep bringing up other games, by the way? How do you slow down time in that one? The player does, right? It's not like it is slowed down because an attack is moving far faster than normal, thus the developers had to slow it down. As for the video, are you saying that ball moves slower that the one Ganon uses afterwards? Isn't Link a lot more near to Ganondorf in that scene than in the fight? When Ganon raises his hand to begin charging his attack, it's a first person view, we can clearly see when he releases the magic ball, when it approaches at us and then when finally hits Link.
No, I'm sorry. Just because that thing features electrical effects and sparks does not mean that it is moving at lightning speed. It isn't a lightning bolt, nor a thunder bolt. It's just an electrical orb that floats through air and can be reflected by sword swings. Lloyd on the other hand successfully blocked a thunder bolt (which killed another character) with his sword OUTSIDE gameplay. And he did it twice. C the difference?
Not gonna bother quoting your wall of text, will summarise:
1. Nah, Lightning moving at lightning speed is not exactly an assumption, particularly when the character has used full speed lightning consistently, and intentionally slowing down his own attack is sabotaging himself, which you cannot prove he did.
2. You are speculating he's got a new, slower, attack, which he's using in preference to the better version we know he has, based solely on gameplay mechanics.
3. The only thing that suggests the lightning is moving slowly at all is a gameplay mechanic which you're clinging to.
4. Occam's razor*, when applied to lightning would indicate that it's moving at the speed of lightning. You keep citing that the attack is shaped like a ball. Well, the gameplay section is essentially tennis, what other shape could it take? Zeus' lightning takes this exact form 11 years later, when he and Kratos do something similar. Going to argue that's a slower attack Zeus invented on the spot to **** himself, too?
5. Ganon's lightning is canonicly lightning speed, this is a lightning attack. Occam's razor, anyone? Your explanation requires a convoluted, made up on the spot, explanation for why Ganondorf uses a weaker attack in a serious situation. There is none.
So, to conclude, Link is stronger, more durable, and has the better reaction feat, you've posted no evidence Lloyd is strong enough to even damage Link. So, rather than trying to descredit a valid feat, how about posting some for Lloyd?
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What? You are the one saying the developers slowed down an attack for the players, so the one using gameplay as defense here is you. I'm simply saying there's no indication of such. Hell, the whole fight from where that supposed 'feat' comes is gameplay, and I AM the one citing gameplay? Give me a break. Why do you keep bringing up other games, by the way? How do you slow down time in that one? The player does, right? It's not like it is slowed down because an attack is moving far faster than normal, thus the developers had to slow it down. As for the video, are you saying that ball moves slower that the one Ganon uses afterwards? Isn't Link a lot more near to Ganondorf in that scene than in the fight? When Ganon raises his hand to begin charging his attack, it's a first person view, we can clearly see when he releases the magic ball, when it approaches at us and then when finally hits Link.No, I'm sorry. Just because that thing features electrical effects and sparks does not mean that it is moving at lightning speed. It isn't a lightning bolt, nor a thunder bolt. It's just an electrical orb that floats through air and can be reflected by sword swings. Lloyd on the other hand successfully blocked a thunder bolt (which killed another character) with his sword [b]OUTSIDE gameplay
. And he did it twice. C the difference? [/B]
Ganondorf's lightning attacks are full speed in canon, this is a lightning attack. ????? Profit? ****, the underpants gnomes could figure this one out. 😐 You are consistently not only citing gameplay mechanics, but a LACK of a gameplay mechanic. Does a lack of a breath bar in the NSMBWii mean Mario can breathe underwater? 😐
Lloyd blocked, IE, for all we know he stood infront of the bolt and tanked it. Link legitimately sent lightning bolts back at Ganondorf multiple times, by striking it as it came at him, this is a superior feat. And it was not a magic ball designed to be reflected, this is a property specificly attributed to the master sword which has been in use since 1991.
We see the feat on screen, we know that it's lightning, we know how fast Ganon's lightning is. Link has a feat. Get over it, and bring some feats for Lloyd.
Now, Lloyd's strength, got any proof he can harm Link?
I'm sorry I havn't been able to answer you Scream, but I've been doing coursework. Finished now, so I'll reply to you tomorrow, but I noticed that you asked me how fast Ball ligtning moves so heres what wikipedia says of the matter:
'They tend to move, most often in a horizontal direction at a few meters per second, but may also move vertically, remain stationary or wander erratically.'
Ganons about 6-8 meters away from Link and it takes about 2 secs to get between them, so the speed it partially consistent, or at least, far more so than that of actual lightning.
And I see that you still havn't explained why, if its actual lightning, that its a goddamn ball. Because in my mind thats a pretty big indication that its ball lightning.
Ganons about 6-8 meters away from Link and it takes about 2 secs to get between them, so the speed it partially consistent, or at least, far more so than that of actual lightning.A Gameplay mechanic requiring Ganondorf to sabotage himself.
And I see that you still havn't explained why, if its actual lightning, that its a goddamn ball. Because in my mind thats a pretty big indication that its ball lightning.
Link is a lighting timer, but all that means is that opponents slower than lighting will be unable to speedblitz him. Doesn't mean he is untouchable or anything. He's not very fast combat wise and without epona he is no more mobile than a human (I think)
Reactions are protection against speedblitz. That's it.
Originally posted by TheGoldenSpyAnd then someone reasonable shows up to accept the feat. Kool gai.
Link is a lighting timer, but all that means is that opponents slower than lighting will be unable to speedblitz him. Doesn't mean he is untouchable or anything. He's not very fast combat wise and without epona he is no more mobile than a human (I think)Reactions are protection against speedblitz. That's it.
Ganondorf is clearly summoning REAL electricity when he does that attack, and when it hits him it effects him like electricity would. Alot of things may appear slowed down or nerfed because unlike fictional superpowered characters our very human brains are unable to percieve and react to something as fast as lighting coming at us and Nintendo is not known for making games highly difficult for the players.
It may technically be an assumption that Ganondorf is using Real lighting because he has used it before but it's alot more sensible and justified compared to thinking he would incase real lighting in a magical orb that would slow it down intentionally rather than it having more to do with nintendo making it possible for the player to have a chance.
That's my view atleast.
Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
Ganondorf is clearly summoning REAL electricity when he does that attack, and when it hits him it effects him like electricity would. Alot of things may appear slowed down or nerfed because unlike fictional superpowered characters our very human brains are unable to percieve and react to something as fast as lighting coming at us and Nintendo is not known for making games highly difficult for the players.It may technically be an assumption that Ganondorf is using Real lighting because he has used it before but it's alot more sensible and justified compared to thinking he would incase real lighting in a magical orb that would slow it down intentionally rather than it having more to do with nintendo making it possible for the player to have a chance.
That's my view atleast.
This is basicly what I've been saying, and I agree.
Please stop bringing up Gannon shooting lightning in other games as proof that the electrical attack in OoT is Lightning, or Zues from God of War... Gannon isn't Zues.
alttp is supposed to be at the end of the series, while OoT is supposed to be the the prequel to the series.You seemed to ignore this last time so I thought I'd post it again. Nothing says that Gannon in OoT has all of his powers from other games. That attack isn't lightning, it just has the properties of electricity. It shocks you if you get hit.
The video the other guy posted showed Lloyd deflecting "actual lightning" and you reply by saying cool, he might be able to keep up? That does make Lloyd an actual Lightning timer. As far as I'm concerned, That would make him faster than Link.
The only question now is Lloyd strong enough to get past Link's strength and durability? I don't know if he can when Link has naryu's love, and the golden gauntlets.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
1. Nah, Lightning moving at lightning speed is not exactly an assumption, particularly when the character has used full speed lightning consistently, and [b]intentionally slowing down his own attack is sabotaging himself, which you cannot prove he did. [/B]
I talked about this in my last post, I don't know why you ignored it.
Linkownsyousobs also brought up a good point. It isn't real lightning, this has been established. You cannot simply say, "Ganon shoots lightning cuz he did it in other games."
I responded to that, now you need to respond to my refutation, not simply repeat yourself. That's how debates work, bro.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
2. You are speculating he's got a new, slower, attack, which he's using in preference to the better version we know he has, based solely on gameplay mechanics.
I'm saying he is using an attack that we see him use. AKA a magic ball he throws at you. Did you completely miss my whole last post, or is ignoring it part of your strategy?
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
3. The only thing that suggests the lightning is moving slowly at all is a gameplay mechanic which you're clinging to.
The thing that suggests the MAGIC BALL is moving slowly is the fact that the magic ball is moving slowly. Again, you tossing in a slow down time assumption when one doesn't need to be there.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
4. Occam's razor*, when applied to lightning would indicate that it's moving at the speed of lightning. You keep citing that the attack is shaped like a ball. Well, the gameplay section is essentially tennis, what other shape could it take? Zeus' lightning takes this exact form [b]11 years later, when he and Kratos do something similar. Going to argue that's a slower attack Zeus invented on the spot to **** himself, too?[/B]
That was a horrible misuse of Occam's Razor. There is no argument about whether lightning moves at the speed of lightning or not. We are applying Occam's Razor to the two different possibilities I brought up in the last post. Occam's Razor supports mine, since it is the simpler explanation. Your only course of action now is to show that my explanation is impossible, cuz as long as it's possible, it's the simpler explanation, and thus the more logical. I'm waiting.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
5. Ganon's lightning is canonicly lightning speed, this is a lightning attack. Occam's razor, anyone? Your explanation requires a convoluted, made up on the spot, explanation for why Ganondorf uses a weaker attack in a serious situation. There is none.
No, my explanation provides a legitimate reason Ganon would use a "weaker" attack. And linkownsyousobs provided yet another.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So, to conclude, Link is stronger, more durable, and has the better reaction feat, you've posted no evidence Lloyd is strong enough to even damage Link. So, rather than trying to descredit a valid feat, how about posting some for Lloyd?
Actually, yes I have. You really need to pay better attention. I rejected your claim that Link is super durable, I rejected your claim he is super fast, and super strength alone does not give him the fight.
If you think my refutations to the above points were incorrect, you need to RESPOND TO THEM, not simply repeat yourself.
Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
Please stop bringing up Gannon shooting lightning in other games as proof that the electrical attack in OoT is Lightning, or Zues from God of War... Gannon isn't Zues.[b]alttp is supposed to be at the end of the series, while OoT is supposed to be the the prequel to the series.
You seemed to ignore this last time so I thought I'd post it again. Nothing says that Gannon in OoT has all of his powers from other games. That attack isn't lightning, it just has the properties of electricity. It shocks you if you get hit.The video the other guy posted showed Lloyd deflecting "actual lightning" and you reply by saying cool, he might be able to keep up? That does make Lloyd an actual Lightning timer. As far as I'm concerned, That would make him faster than Link.
The only question now is Lloyd strong enough to get past Link's strength and durability? I don't know if he can when Link has naryu's love, and the golden gauntlets. [/B]
Thank you. A voice of reason.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Blocking something < Deflecting it. Lloyd is not yet faster by feats.
Link only deflects it because he has the Master Sword. Lloyd did the same move Link did. He slashed the lightning attack with his sword. He didn't have a magic sword, though. His was normal.
I responded to that, now you need to respond to my refutation, not simply repeat yourself. That's how debates work, bro.You refuted nothing, I'm correcting you. Your "refutation" was essentially repeating yourself citing a gameplay mechanic.
I'm saying he is using an attack that we see him use. AKA a magic ball he throws at you. Did you completely miss my whole last post, or is ignoring it part of your strategy?You're ignoring it's a lightning attack, and there's no reason a lightning attack would be slow.
The thing that suggests the MAGIC BALL is moving slowly is the fact that the magic ball is moving slowly. Again, you tossing in a slow down time assumption when one doesn't need to be there.
That was a horrible misuse of Occam's Razor. There is no argument about whether lightning moves at the speed of lightning or not. We are applying Occam's Razor to the two different possibilities I brought up in the last post. Occam's Razor supports mine, since it is the simpler explanation. Your only course of action now is to show that my explanation is impossible, cuz as long as it's possible, it's the simpler explanation, and thus the more logical. I'm waiting.
Actually, yes I have. You really need to pay better attention. I rejected your claim that Link is super durable, I rejected your claim he is super fast, and super strength alone does not give him the fight.If you think my refutations to the above points were incorrect, you need to RESPOND TO THEM, not simply repeat yourself.
Link only deflects it because he has the Master Sword. Lloyd did the same move Link did. He slashed the lightning attack with his sword. He didn't have a magic sword, though. His was normal.I'll watch it again, but I didn't see him swing his sword at all due to the camera being angled to his back.